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Thoughts on BW

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Setting up Trip as the main rival and making him lose to Ash in the first round of the League was not a good way to end the rivalry.
 
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I think that's a really rude and dismissive way to refer to people who don't like Iris.
In my defense, I’ve come across Iris haters who have not only been very rude and persistent towards me and other people (mainly on YouTube & Deviantart), but they have also talked badly about me to others (while tarnishing my name) on other websites for my opinions. Some of them are the worst type of cyberbullies and stalkers.

Quick story: a girl I knew who was a fan of Iris was cyberstalked for YEARS simply becauseof her opinion.

I was fed up with their toxic actions towards me when I wrote what I said and I didn’t meant to be rude. I’m very sorry :-/. I wasn’t referring to the mature haters.
 
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Also I think they make the mistake of giving her legit criticism of Iris (regarding her use of Dragonite) but because she's a strawperson her words are meaningless.



Well regarding the parts of your post I bolded goes back to my previous assertion. The writers of this season flat out make these decisions out of contempt for the product or any writers from previous seasons weren't in the best of moods when crafting it.

A few errors here and there (isolated incidents) can be seen as unintentional. When you look over all of them hard to see it as a "Oops my bad:-(".
Pretty sure Iris actually takes those criticisms to heart and even apologized to her rival. Hmmm, almost as if everything you said was complete bullshit, especially on the whole writer hate. Like remember Shudo? Who basically went 90% trainers fail and become deadbeats/ don’t contribute to society, gym leaders who fail theee times can’t fight anymore and so the gym leader thing is filled with bribery, Pokémon are gonna revolt against their trainers? Literally tried to turn a game about friendship with magical creatures into a grim dark mess? That shudo? That is a man who hates the franchise he’s saddled with, not writers who went a little too far on making characters gag based. Like, yeah, the gag based characters could have been replaced with a bit more serious minded abs character based stories, but the bw writers don’t hate the games or anything like that. In fact I’m pretty sure some worked on the other series as well.
I think the saddest part about how Burgundy and Georgia were handled is that these two had a lot of potential: Burgundy was our fist true instance of a main character's rival being the underdog to the main character instead of the other way around, so we could very easily have had an arc about Burgundy maturing and learning to respect Cilan, and Cilan in turn could have maybe had an arc where Burgundy helps him with his Purrloin phobia (you know, that thing that was never elaborated on and existed solely for gag purposes which is probably why most people don't remember that it exists?)

Georgia meanwile I think had way more potential as a character than Burgundy. See, when Axew pulled his first undeserved Deus Ex Machina OP move out of his butt learned Outrage during the first Don George tournament, Georgia was noticeably terrified and spoke in a much more serious tone than usual while describing the move's effects, implying that Outrage was the move that handed her her devastating defeat against that Dragon-type trainer, and that said defeat may have been a lot more serious than initially thought; we have had instances of Pokemon being hospitalized as a result of battles, as what happened to Ash's Pikachu against two different Raichus on separate occasions (heck the second time it happened he almost died), so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine that something similar happened to Georgia's Pokemon when she had that loss against that Dragon-type trainer. Heck, back when I saw Georgia's reaction to Outrage, my first thought was that maybe the trainer that Georgia had that devastating loss against was Ghetsis, since his ace Pokemon is a Hydreigon and he's certainly ruthless enough to beat another trainer's Pokemon to near-death, so it would have been really cool if Georgia's arc was tied with Team Plasma, and the climactic battle was Iris and Georgia teaming up to beat Ghetsis while Ash dealt with N and his Legendary Dragon. Sadly, that never happened and Team Plasma wound up being one of the most disappointing evil team defeats. And Ghetsis never even got to use any Pokemon at all either!
Like I said, it could have been wrotten to be more serious but that isn’t what happened. I can see why people who like serious minded stories could dislike bw, and I can understand if you’re frustrated at how the plots went in bw the anime. But it’s not as if we can’t rewrite it to be more serious in fics and such. Just realize how abs why the characters act and why they were written that way without falling into bashing.
Burgundy and Georgia are perfect examples of fun characters who weren't used to their full potential. I love them both, but they could have been utilized better.
Thank you for being calmer and more understanding of how and why they were used that way.
 
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In my defense, I’ve come across Iris haters who have not only been very rude and persistent towards me and other people (mainly on YouTube & Deviantart), but they have also talked badly about me to others (while tarnishing my name) on other websites for my opinions. Some of them are the worst type of cyberbullies and stalkers.

Quick story: a girl I knew who was a fan of Iris was cyberstalked for YEARS simply becauseof her opinion.

I was fed up with their toxic actions towards me when I wrote what I said and I didn’t meant to be rude. I’m very sorry :-/. I wasn’t referring to the mature haters.
I'm sadly not surprised. BW hate was really intense here for a long time, so I can imagine places like YouTube were worse. Plus, I've been in similar kind of toxic environments where saying that you like a show or character can easily lead to people jumping all over you for daring to have an unpopular opinion. This easily happens now with Goh discussions and how I disagree on the screentime issue. I'm sorry that people have been rude to you and that other people have been treated even worse. I don't like Iris, but I don't think anyone should be harassed or stalked just because they like her. I do appreciate the clarification though since I was confused over your initial statement.
 
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Hey, it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with me and all, but is insulting me and calling me "blinder than a half concussed zubat" really warranted? Especially since I fail to see how my comment was in any way rude (besides perhaps me accusing Axew's learning of Outrage being unearned, but since you completely ignored that it's obvious that that's not the part that bothered you). There's plenty of ways to disagree with a person without descending into a cascade of insults. Also, I never once talked about Pokemon Connoisseurs as a profession, only about Burgundy's character, so idk why you're acting like I think being a Connoisseur is useless.
EDIT: Okay, nevermind, I just noticed that this part of your response wasn't actually aimed at me. Oops. Still, though, insulting people over their opinions isn't something you should be doing, especially if they never insulted you beforehand. Your anger is understandable, characters you like being constantly criticized isn't a fun feeling at all, but if nobody's being rude to you there's absolutely zero reason to lash out the way you did.
like I said, it could have been wrotten to be more serious but that isn’t what happened. I can see why people who like serious minded stories could dislike bw, and I can understand if you’re frustrated at how the plots went in bw the anime. But it’s not as if we can’t rewrite it to be more serious in fics and such. Just realize how abs why the characters act and why they were written that way without falling into bashing.
Saying that Georgia and Burgundy had untapped potential is hardly bashing, though. If anything it means that part of me likes them and would have enjoyed seeing them getting more than what they got. Also, you do realize that it's perfectly possible for comedy and seriousness to overlap, right? Just because I would have liked Burgundy and Georgia (moreso the latter) to be more than just gag characters it doesn't mean I'd like for their comedic characteristics to be removed completely.
 
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Pretty sure Iris actually takes those criticisms to heart and even apologized to her rival. Hmmm, almost as if everything you said was complete bullshit,
This I'll concede, but...

especially on the whole writer hate. Like remember Shudo? Who basically went 90% trainers fail and become deadbeats/ don’t contribute to society, gym leaders who fail theee times can’t fight anymore and so the gym leader thing is filled with bribery, Pokémon are gonna revolt against their trainers? Literally tried to turn a game about friendship with magical creatures into a grim dark mess? That shudo? That is a man who hates the franchise he’s saddled with, not writers who went a little too far on making characters gag based. Like, yeah, the gag based characters could have been replaced with a bit more serious minded abs character based stories,
A. No I don't find gags in and of themselves to be a turn off. Just as you said it is over done.

B. At the very least I have insulted no poster and ask for the same courtesy if nothing else.

Yes some critics as mentioned have resorted to stalking or worse, but using that as a reason to insult all of them accomplishes nothing.


C. Whether my assertion on writer motive is off to be fair, you only responded to one of my posts to attempt disagreement, so I ask you give my full post a read.

A shorter version of this is on the main page but I redid it on a Serebii forum post:

1. Besides it relying on reseting Ash, his rivalry with Trip has nothing riding on it.

Paul was Ash's opposite in how he treated his Pokémon.

Gary started in the same town and same day that he did, but started off better and more prepared. Basically beating him proves that his late start is a mere setback..

You had maybe country pride with Trip showing some possible racism, but that faded away after awhile. Or have him be an intellectual trainer who suggests that knowledge alone will suffice where as Ash seeks to prove that hands on experience is more essential.

But no. Their rivalry says nothing.

2. Yeah Iris being Misty while not getting what worked.

A. Going with the simple one, but fear of Ice Types? Yeah sounds like trying to call back to Misty fearing Bugs only doesn't work. Misty's fear of Bug Types are based on people in real life fearing bugs, not because of say type advantage factoring or whatever.

Don't know how often anyone fears an ice cream cone or popsicle.:-D.

B. Funny that they abandon the bike stealing/destroying since rehashing is a priority. But between showing up with a beaten Pikachu and taking her expensive bike yeah Misty's lack of respect for Ash has a bit more substance to it.

Plus her anger at him endangering Caterpie due to using it against a stronger Pokémon with type advantage. It's not her just ribbing him for laughs like with Iris.

3. For one regarding two of Ash's worst moments yeah the loss against Cameron was unnecessary and another jerk move.

Even if the TR bit before Richie was unnecessary to prove a point, it was at least demonstrating that he became too over competent and lazy.

Dazzling the Nimbus Gym, yeah even if he got cocky in the first round of the Indigo League he still had two other Pokémon on him at least rather than say intentionally breaking a rule.

And that's why I still think the episode fails. Even if you can give the wiggle room for it to be in character for Ash, I don't see why the Gym Referee didn't disqualify him for his conduct.

Oh and suggesting that going for strategy vs instinct/luck is a bad move for Ash.

Yeah no way this can be dismissed as anything other than disdainful message.

4. Japanese Episode BW 048

Sums up why TR didn't work or why I didn't feel they did.

They had some small victories in the abandoned Team Plasma subplot, but trying to suggest them to be more serious while having them make stupid decisions or without even a temporary victory over Ash.

I mean as some people like to claim Japan animation to be less hand holdy, I'd like to think that means you could say have the trio beating Ash in an episode an it takes a while to foil their plan.

After all past that you had Sun and Moon say doing that somber story with the Stoutland who cared for Litton. Even had the Rocket Trio defeating Ash in a Pokémon battle in episode 12.

The more comedic TR in a more chilled season gives Ash a defeat compared to the more serious season.

Plus besides the comedic versions being more entertaining, their other high point is being the more humane and sympathetic Rockets. Something not present here especially as they give Giovanni their Unova captures compared to say when they parted with Weezing, Arbok, Dustox and Cacnea.

5. It's funny cause all people who critique BW are seen as hating against the fans of that season.

Yet look at how the show handles Cilan and Iris departing. Not much effort. An episode beforehand even has Cilan reaffirming his choice to continue traveling with Ash not traveling with him for a while. Then we follow with him just up and going.

Maybe have the previous episode serving as his goodbye and letting Iris have the second to last episode to focus on her departure.

Even their rivals fizzle out. So if you enjoyed Cilan, Iris, Burgundy and/or Georgia well the writers or higher ups are the ones who chose not to let their last appearance matter so yeah it's not the critics who have disdain for the BW fans.


For good measure albeit small there was that bit I posted on Enter Elesa which feels off regarding a character of the day:

1. Smiling at his daughter losing to Elesa rather than having a look of distress as her Mon were being defeated.

2. Being surprised that his daughter had friends?
 
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I didn't care for Iris' catchphrase, but that really wasn't a huge factor as to why I dislike her and I'm still amazed that people really think that was the biggest reason people had to dislike her too.
To be fair, on Pokémon’s Reddit page and other websites, many fans have said that the catchphrase was the main reason they hated her. You do have a point , though. My brother doesn’t like Iris’ character either and it wasn’t even because of her catchphrase. He felt that Iris was too eccentric for him to enjoy as a character.

They didn't always get along with Ash and I think just calling them all bubbly and sweet is a bit of a disservice to them as well.
When I said that, I was referring to the fans of the show who not only hated Iris, but hated Misty as well for similar reasons. Misty may be more popular than Iris, but I’ve seen so many Misty haters get mad at Misty for being abrasive towards Ash when Ash was needlessly rude to her as well. I always felt that Misty was more popular than Iris simply because she comes off as more iconic and she was the first ever Pokegirl. Do you even think that Misty would even be as popular as she is if she were to be the main girl on BW?

Like I said before, I didn’t meant to come off as abrasive, but I do notice that the only non-nice female characters of the Pokémon anime who aren’t disliked so much are the rivals and the villains.
 
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When I said that, I was referring to the fans of the show who not only hated Iris, but hated Misty as well for similar reasons. Misty may be more popular than Iris, but I’ve seen so many Misty haters get mad at Misty for being abrasive towards Ash when Ash was needlessly rude to her as well.
Well then hopefully my second point in the post above gives you some valid Iris critique and I ask you look at that (Namely 2B).
 
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A. Going with the simple one, but fear of Ice Types? Yeah sounds like trying to call back to Misty fearing Bugs only doesn't work. Misty's fear of Bug Types are based on people in real life fearing bugs, not because of say type advantage factoring or whatever.

Don't know how often anyone fears an ice cream cone or popsicle.:-D.
Ice can kill you in real life though. People have been frozen to death due to being in the cold for too long, so Iris’ fear of ice isn’t too unreasonable. It’s just her reason behind the fear of ice types isn’t too strong.
 
wₕₑₙ yₒᵤ wᵢₛₕ ᵤₚₒₙ ₐ ₛₜₐᵣ
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Okay? Wow. First, I think you’re ignoring that connesuers act as sorta proto therapists and are meant to give advice towards trainers. Make sure the Pokémon and the trainers get along and can handle each other’s quirks. Gee, can’t imagine how that could be useful in the Pokémon world. :cautious::rolleyes: Second of all, they’regag characters, so they’re gonna be snooty and goofy. Something I kinda wanna focus on. And really, Iris wouldn’t have changed?You’re blinder than a half concussed zubat.
Let me start off by saying your insult to me is completely rude, disrespectful, and unwarranted. Users are allowed to disagree with another's opinion, but need to do so politely and respectfully. I highly suggest you read up on the forum's rules and adjust yourself before challenging someone's opinion, or just posting, again.

Secondly,

First, I think you’re ignoring that connesuers act as sorta proto therapists and are meant to give advice towards trainers. Make sure the Pokémon and the trainers get along and can handle each other’s quirks. Gee, can’t imagine how that could be useful in the Pokémon world.
Because they are not therapists. And if you're rationalizing that they are pseudo-therapists on the grounds of giving advice, then that essentially makes Ash, his friends, and previous COTD pseudo-therapists or Pokémon Connoisseurs in practice. They assess other people and their Pokémon with their opinion on their relationship, which prior to and after BW, has never been portrayed as a need or reputable service. If I want to criticize that, I am well within my right to do so. Especially since we have seen time and again Ash, his friends, and other peers do exactly what Pokémon Connoisseurs epitomize without the title. It seemed like a profession that was a reach; especially since there are only four of them in the anime to date, with two of the four classes not even represented.

Second of all, they’regag characters, so they’re gonna be snooty and goofy. Something I kinda wanna focus on. And really, Iris wouldn’t have changed?
And "gag characters" are free of criticism or being disliked? It reads to me you are upset that characters you like were criticized. I can relate as most people on here detest Go, but that's no excuse for me to go and attack them and their opinions on him, especially without any substance. And not every character that has a gag is "snooty" or "goofy;" that's subjective.

And yes, I believe so. Georgia has done nothing to develop Iris and her goal of being Dragon-type Master. She did not push Iris to greater heights as a Trainer, they only battled twice (in which both battles highlighted established issues on Iris' part), and most of their on-screen interaction consisted of petty jabs towards each other that amounted to nothing. You could argue that Georgia was the most direct in calling out how Dragonite battled her in lieu of Iris, but guess what - Iris already knew that from Ash, Cilan, Dawn, and Cynthia by virtue of possessing Dragonite and interacting with its disobedience for several episodes. So, again, no - my opinion is that Georgia did not develop Iris in a substantial manner, especially in light of other rival relationships we have observed in this series. Iris would not be fundamentally different if Georgia, as she was depicted, was written out of the show.

The most I will give is if someone wants to argue that Georgia was the catalyst for Iris finally being an empathetic Trainer to Excadrill. But, even that was something (Excadrill being knocked out) that anyone could have done.
 
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Ice can kill you in real life though. People have been frozen to death due to being in the cold for too long, so Iris’ fear of ice isn’t too unreasonable. It’s just her reason behind the fear isn’t too strong.
Fair enough, but I hope if nothing else the other part of the comment better explains why it felt like Misty's chew out worked more often.

Especially knowing that she didn't care much for Caterpie while taking issue with it being endangered.

I might edit that post a bit later to add more, but I sometimes think that episode 7 where Ash brags about two badges which he didn't even win through battling. Or heck telling/suggesting to Prima/Lorelei that his Rank in the Pokémon League gives him more weight than an Elite Trainer:-D.

I think that's another thing. BW returned his heavier idiocy, but not much in way of his Jerky nature which is why Misty ribbing him felt more earned.
 
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I disliked Iris's Teasing of Ash simply because how it made the latter who was a 4-Region Vet at time look like an idiot. First in BW, Ash himself couldn't comprehend how to win Battles and forgot how to Catch Pokemon. Iris's teasing of Ash made him look like more of an idiot. I know when we talk about Ash in BW, we talk about him forgetting things, Scanning a Koffing, the Elesa Battle and more. One thing more there is about him is the way he interacts, The way Ash interacted with Iris and other characters in BW felt like he was some socially awkward kid who didn't go outside of his house. If you look at some episodes at the start he acts so cringe, especially with Trip, always asking for a battle without even properly training and preparing.
 
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I know when we talk about Ash in BW, we talk about him forgetting things, Scanning a Koffing, the Elesa Battle and more.
Ash always scans Pokémon he’s seen before. The writers do this intentionally with his character because there are viewers who not only did not watch the old arcs, but aren't aware of certain Pokémon that were introduced in older generations.
 
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Hey, it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with me and all, but is insulting me and calling me "blinder than a half concussed zubat" really warranted? Especially since I fail to see how my comment was in any way rude (besides perhaps me accusing Axew's learning of Outrage being unearned, but since you completely ignored that it's obvious that that's not the part that bothered you). There's plenty of ways to disagree with a person without descending into a cascade of insults. Also, I never once talked about Pokemon Connoisseurs as a profession, only about Burgundy's character, so idk why you're acting like I think being a Connoisseur is useless.
EDIT: Okay, nevermind, I just noticed that this part of your response wasn't actually aimed at me. Oops. Still, though, insulting people over their opinions isn't something you should be doing, especially if they never insulted you beforehand. Your anger is understandable, characters you like being constantly criticized isn't a fun feeling at all, but if nobody's being rude to you there's absolutely zero reason to lash out the way you did.

Saying that Georgia and Burgundy had untapped potential is hardly bashing, though. If anything it means that part of me likes them and would have enjoyed seeing them getting more than what they got. Also, you do realize that it's perfectly possible for comedy and seriousness to overlap, right? Just because I would have liked Burgundy and Georgia (moreso the latter) to be more than just gag characters it doesn't mean I'd like for their comedic characteristics to be removed completely.
I did not mean for to say that you were bashing, I meant to try to forewarn you about how easy it is to get into bashing. On that part I could have been clearer.
This I'll concede, but...



A. No I don't find gags in and of themselves to be a turn off. Just as you said it is over done.

B. At the very least I have insulted no poster and ask for the same courtesy if nothing else.

Yes some critics as mentioned have resorted to stalking or worse, but using that as a reason to insult all of them accomplishes nothing.


C. Whether my assertion on writer motive is off to be fair, you only responded to one of my posts to attempt disagreement, so I ask you give my full post a read.

A shorter version of this is on the main page but I redid it on a Serebii forum post:

1. Besides it relying on reseting Ash, his rivalry with Trip has nothing riding on it.

Paul was Ash's opposite in how he treated his Pokémon.

Gary started in the same town and same day that he did, but started off better and more prepared. Basically beating him proves that his late start is a mere setback..

You had maybe country pride with Trip showing some possible racism, but that faded away after awhile. Or have him be an intellectual trainer who suggests that knowledge alone will suffice where as Ash seeks to prove that hands on experience is more essential.

But no. Their rivalry says nothing.

2. Yeah Iris being Misty while not getting what worked.

A. Going with the simple one, but fear of Ice Types? Yeah sounds like trying to call back to Misty fearing Bugs only doesn't work. Misty's fear of Bug Types are based on people in real life fearing bugs, not because of say type advantage factoring or whatever.

Don't know how often anyone fears an ice cream cone or popsicle.:-D.

B. Funny that they abandon the bike stealing/destroying since rehashing is a priority. But between showing up with a beaten Pikachu and taking her expensive bike yeah Misty's lack of respect for Ash has a bit more substance to it.

Plus her anger at him endangering Caterpie due to using it against a stronger Pokémon with type advantage. It's not her just ribbing him for laughs like with Iris.

3. For one regarding two of Ash's worst moments yeah the loss against Cameron was unnecessary and another jerk move.

Even if the TR bit before Richie was unnecessary to prove a point, it was at least demonstrating that he became too over competent and lazy.

Dazzling the Nimbus Gym, yeah even if he got cocky in the first round of the Indigo League he still had two other Pokémon on him at least rather than say intentionally breaking a rule.

And that's why I still think the episode fails. Even if you can give the wiggle room for it to be in character for Ash, I don't see why the Gym Referee didn't disqualify him for his conduct.

Oh and suggesting that going for strategy vs instinct/luck is a bad move for Ash.

Yeah no way this can be dismissed as anything other than disdainful message.

4. Japanese Episode BW 048

Sums up why TR didn't work or why I didn't feel they did.

They had some small victories in the abandoned Team Plasma subplot, but trying to suggest them to be more serious while having them make stupid decisions or without even a temporary victory over Ash.

I mean as some people like to claim Japan animation to be less hand holdy, I'd like to think that means you could say have the trio beating Ash in an episode an it takes a while to foil their plan.

After all past that you had Sun and Moon say doing that somber story with the Stoutland who cared for Litton. Even had the Rocket Trio defeating Ash in a Pokémon battle in episode 12.

The more comedic TR in a more chilled season gives Ash a defeat compared to the more serious season.

Plus besides the comedic versions being more entertaining, their other high point is being the more humane and sympathetic Rockets. Something not present here especially as they give Giovanni their Unova captures compared to say when they parted with Weezing, Arbok, Dustox and Cacnea.

5. It's funny cause all people who critique BW are seen as hating against the fans of that season.

Yet look at how the show handles Cilan and Iris departing. Not much effort. An episode beforehand even has Cilan reaffirming his choice to continue traveling with Ash not traveling with him for a while. Then we follow with him just up and going.

Maybe have the previous episode serving as his goodbye and letting Iris have the second to last episode to focus on her departure.

Even their rivals fizzle out. So if you enjoyed Cilan, Iris, Burgundy and/or Georgia well the writers or higher ups are the ones who chose not to let their last appearance matter so yeah it's not the critics who have disdain for the BW fans.


For good measure albeit small there was that bit I posted on Enter Elesa which feels off regarding a character of the day:

1. Smiling at his daughter losing to Elesa rather than having a look of distress as her Mon were being defeated.

2. Being surprised that his daughter had friends?
My verbal attacks were unnecessary, and I should not have gotten so heated when it came to the series, for that I apologize.

I still feel that you aren’t exactly letting go of the idea that the writers of bw are malicious towards the fans, especially with terms like disdainful messaging. From what I recall, there were a few lines that have Ash say he was using Pikachu and oshawott a lot more more than other Pokémon, which makes me wonder if the episode was intended to be a if it ain’t broke don’t fix it episode. It still would have been a misfire, but it’s an understandable one. For the team rocket thing, I’m not sure why they did that, aside from trying to show how cemented they are to team rocket. Companion wise, they could have spent a little more time on their departure, but I really think the disdain you talk of is reaching at best. Mistakes happen.
Let me start off by saying your insult to me is completely rude, disrespectful, and unwarranted. Users are allowed to disagree with another's opinion, but need to do so politely and respectfully. I highly suggest you read up on the forum's rules and adjust yourself before challenging someone's opinion, or just posting, again.

Secondly,



Because they are not therapists. And if your rationalizing that they are pseudo-therapists on the grounds of giving advice, then that essentially makes Ash, his friends, and previous COTD pseudo-therapists or Pokémon Connoisseurs in practice. They assess other people and their Pokémon with their opinion on their relationship, which prior to and after BW, has never been portrayed as a need or reputable service. If I want to criticize that, I am well within my right to do so. Especially since we have seen time and again Ash, his friends, and other peers do exactly what Pokémon Connoisseurs epitomize without the title. It seemed like a profession that was a reach; especially since there are only four of them in the anime to date, with two of the four classes not even represented.



And "gag characters" are free of criticism or being disliked? It reads to me you are upset that characters you like were criticized. I can relate as most people on here detest Go, but that's no excuse for me to go and attack them and their opinions on him, especially without any substance. And not every character that has a gag is "snooty" or "goofy;" that's subjective.

And yes, I believe so. Georgia has done nothing to develop Iris and her goal of being Dragon-type Master. She did not push Iris to greater heights as a Trainer, they only battled twice (in which both battles highlighted established issues on Iris' part), and most of their on-screen interaction consisted of pretty jabs towards each other that amounted to nothing. You could argue that Georgia was the most direct in calling out how Dragonite battled her in lieu of Iris, but guess what - Iris already knew that from Ash, Cilan, Dawn, and Cynthia by virtue of possessing Dragonite and interacting with its disobedience for several episodes. So, again, no - my opinion is that Georgia did not develop Iris in a substantial manner, especially in light of other rival relationships we have observed in this series. Iris would not be fundamentally different if Georgia, as she was depicted, was written out of the show.

The most I will given is if someone wants to argue that Georgia was the catalyst for Iris finally being an empathetic Trainer to Excadrill. But, even that was something (Excadrill being knocked out) that anyone could have done.
You’re absolutely right on me attacking you. The hat was all of those things you said it was.
Per conneseurs, we do see them shown as advisors for a variety of people, try to figure out who they would bond with and how they fit. Which makes a lot of sense for a world like Pokémon. They could have focused more on the job, and I’m surprised they don’t have them appear more. As per Cilan and Burgundy, he did try and teach her, but she never really listened. That could have been handled better, admittedly.
As per Iris and Georgia, I still feel their rivalry had merit, since while you claim someone knocking Excadrill out would have gotten Iris to fix her problems, I don’t think that’s the case. Iris can be remarkably stubborn. I think Georgia the dragon buster gave Iris a kick in the pants she needed to motivate herself into reaching out to Excadrill. Iris realizing her win with dragonite was the result of dragonite also pushed her to keep trying with dragonite and improve. So while they didn’t have a lot of time acting as rivals, I’m not sure Iris would have changed as much without Georgia acting as a catalyst, even if they didn’t battle as much. Per the gag characters, no, them being gag characters does not make them immune to criticism. I just felt that said criticism was unfair towards the characters, though that did not warrant my levels of aggression towards you. For that, I apologize.
 
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I did not mean for to say that you were bashing, I meant to try to forewarn you about how easy it is to get into bashing. On that part I could have been clearer.
Ah, I see. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure if I'd get that far with Burgundy and Georgia specifically though, since as far as my problems with BW go those two are fairly minor issues in the grand scheme of things. Now Cameron on the other hand is one BW aspect I can see myself losing control over, so I should definitely put the reins on myself when discussing him.
 
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When I said that, I was referring to the fans of the show who not only hated Iris, but hated Misty as well for similar reasons. Misty may be more popular than Iris, but I’ve seen so many Misty haters get mad at Misty for being abrasive towards Ash when Ash was needlessly rude to her as well. I always felt that Misty was more popular than Iris simply because she comes off as more iconic and she was the first ever Pokegirl. Do you even think that Misty would even be as popular as she is if she were to be the main girl on BW?
Admittedly, I don't see as much hate for Misty compared to Iris, but I do think being the iconic first girl of the anime does help her popularity a lot. It isn't the only reason people would like her, but it certainly doesn't hurt her popularity. Misty being the main girl on BW would be a different experience, in large part because I don't know if her dynamic with BW Ash would have been the same as Iris'. She kept calling Ash a little kid, but he rarely reacted to it, which was kind of missing half of the component to Ash's arguments with Misty. Plus, he was a more experienced trainer than Iris initially came off as and in my opinion, they never felt like they were on equal levels of strength throughout BW. Misty calling Ash out felt a lot more justified when she was at least a bit more experienced/knowledgeable about Pokemon than he was at the start. Iris doing the same kind of stuff with a more experienced Ash just doesn't work or at least feel justified like Misty doing it with OS Ash.
 
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From what I recall, there were a few lines that have Ash say he was using Pikachu and oshawott a lot more more than other Pokémon, which makes me wonder if the episode was intended to be a if it ain’t broke don’t fix it episode. It still would have been a misfire, but it’s an understandable one. For the team rocket thing, I’m not sure why they did that, aside from trying to show how cemented they are to team rocket. Companion wise, they could have spent a little more time on their departure, but I really think the disdain you talk of is reaching at best. Mistakes happen.
Appreciate the apology and I will admit as strongly as I feel about my assertion it still is an opinion that could be proven wrong.

Hard to say. But yes there is the Shudo example and even the GS Ball being abandoned with them confirming that they expected the audience would forget about it.

I guess it's just that the early seasons had enough to be good and at least compared to BW there was just a feeling of more effort.

Lack of effort especially to BW's degree while maybe not malicious it's not exactly an innocent error.

Taking Johto which has been panned, getting past the less creative filler, you still have attempts at furthering Ash's character growth and least knowing when to hold back on the gags or TR having some good moments. Even trying to say make Misty's departure feel meaningful even if the reason wasn't brought up before (ie her sisters needing someone at the Gym).

I think the least divisive praise you can give for BW is allow for episodes without Jessie, James and Meowth. But that only goes so far.

And while I don't often speculate a product's failing to be an attempt to spite the audience, I think sometimes the reason it's easier for some people to do so frequently?

Cause the alternative brings their talent into question. I mean it's kind of a pick your poison type interpretation.

Anyway, to give a little more to my previous post:

1. Looking at the two most recurring problems, Ash being at his dumbest and the Rocket Trio being the least fun and humane. If it had been one or the other that would be one thing, but both approaches taken in the same show?

2. I mean even if it's for the sake of humor, I guess for an installment of a long running show I don't see why they wouldn't expect say Ash running out of the Gym to get another Pokémon for a 3 on 3 match or losing to a trainer (who only had 5 Mon and didn't originally understand what registration was) to be a mistake. Even without knowledge of past continuity and this being a first exposure to the anime there's still signs of him being smarter than his amateur moves would indicate.

Or looking at the Rocket Trio where the attempt to make them serious is bells and whistles while still losing in the least dignified way. Can't really work if the writers aren't willing to maybe let them say have occasional temporary victories against Ash and co.

Admittedly, I don't see as much hate for Misty compared to Iris, but I do think being the iconic first girl of the anime does help her popularity a lot. It isn't the only reason people would like her, but it certainly doesn't hurt her popularity. Misty being the main girl on BW would be a different experience, in large part because I don't know if her dynamic with BW Ash would have been the same as Iris'. She kept calling Ash a little kid, but he rarely reacted to it, which was kind of missing half of the component to Ash's arguments with Misty. Plus, he was a more experienced trainer than Iris initially came off as and in my opinion, they never felt like they were on equal levels of strength throughout BW. Misty calling Ash out felt a lot more justified when she was at least a bit more experienced/knowledgeable about Pokemon than he was at the start. Iris doing the same kind of stuff with a more experienced Ash just doesn't work or at least feel justified like Misty doing it with OS Ash.
3. Agreed and it can't be stressed enough that Misty wasn't just getting on his case for laughs. Their first meeting has him showing up with a beaten Pikachu and taking/damaging her bike. Plus later endangering his Caterpie due to incompetence. Even bragging at times about his badges when a good majority of them were given out of pity or sometimes even insulting her without prompting.

She was chiding him due to annoyance of his ego and even rudeness.

You could say that Misty's occasional disrespect towards him or losing to Richie in the Indigo League is due to him needing to mature. And that season was a coming of age story.

Iris calling him a kid and losing to Cameron, is just a lazy attempt at "LOL! It's funny cause he's dumb.". It's like the rivalry with Trip and how it differs from competing with Gary or Paul. There's nothing being said and it's a shortcut to give him a foil or to make humor.
 
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Ok, so I held my tongue when this thread was first made because I didn't think it would last longer than a week tops. But it's been almost a month now, the thread is 5 pages long (consisting mostly of posts from the same handful of users), and I'm just going to come out and say it; what purpose is this thread serving?

It would be one thing if this thread's title was "What was your opinion on BW?" since that would be welcoming users who both liked and disliked the series, but instead it's "Why do you dislike BW?", implying the general consensus is that it's a series to be disliked. Heck, I probably wouldn't have cared if the thread was asking people about their issues with the anime in general, not just with BW. At least then, we would hear criticisms from the entire history of Pokémon and it wouldn't feel like one single aspect of it is getting dogpiled here constantly.

I don't want to be that person calling for "censorship", but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bothered seeing this thread title at the top of the Anime and Manga section evertime I come here. I personally enjoyed BW when it was airing, and I accepted that it wasn't for everyone. But could we broaden this thread's focus to the entire series and not just BW? It just feels like this is a place for people to air their grievances, and frankly, it feels negative. I'm all for conversation, but this just feels like kicking a dead horse and I just wanna know if this is a topic I should expect to see for the next several months. I'd love to see this thread merged into a megathread that allowed for criticisms across the entire franchise since not only would it feel "spammy" for me to make one about, say, Sun & Moon as it's own separate thread, it would feel less targeted.
 
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Okay, let's be fair, for all of BW saga's faults, it still has one great attribute to its name: having by far the most game-accurate depiction of Focus Miss of any saga
Sometimes I randomly remember this video everytime I see someone using Focus Blast in the anime and I wheeze a bit
It had no business being this funny
 
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