Thoughts on generational gimmicks?

[RK9]

I don't mind them if they tie into lore. Megas tie into the history and lore of evolution, and make for interesting thoughts seeing that for example Mega Aerodactyl, if the dex entry is to be believed, is Aerodactly as it was in the past. (Which begs the question, what if Mega Evolution for all the Pokémon that have it is it's 'original state' before it changed over the years to what it has now.

The other 2, I can miss like a rash. I don't think they really add anything on the big scale of things as far as the Pokémon lroe and worldbuilding goes. It is nice to see that every place has something that sets them apart from each other (But it would also be interesting for example if they use a certain gimmick in a different way, I suppose.)

 

[Norzan]

They are 1-3 when it comes to generational battle mechanics that are actually fun that add quite a bit to the game. Z-moves were boring as crap, and Dynamax is just a horrible amalgamation of Mega Evolution and Z-moves, removing whatever appeal those two mechanics had.

Mega Evolution so far is the only one i liked since it gave a much needed boost to bunch of several pokemon that were okay to terrible, plus give new designs to pokemon that can no longer evolve. Of course the problem that rose with this was the fact that several that didn't needed it got one but that was inevitable, gotta give the favorites one as well for marketing purposes. And the other problem that can possibly rise with this is stuff like Houndoom no longer getting a cross generational evolution because it got a Mega Evolution already and that would suck.

I don't mind generational battle mechanics as long they are fun and add to the experience, but so far there have been more bad than good.

And this is something minor, but i hate how long the Dynamax transformation is. The trainer absorbs some energy to the normal pokeball, then looks at their wrist, some energy comes out, then a pokeball comes out, then they throw it, then the pokemon comes out slowly causing the ground to shake, then the pokemon roars or whatever, and then you can finally do something. It gets monotonous, specially because it happens twice per battle if the people you fight can Dynamax. This also applies to Z-moves, that dance before the move actually happens is way too long. Mega Evolution's animation is like four seconds at most to happen.

 

[Kung Fu Ferret]

My favorite gimmick by far is a tie between Mega Evolution and regional forms/evos.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I voted yes. While calling these features gimmicks wouldn't be inaccurate, it does come off as a bit too dismissive or maybe simplifying them too much for my tastes. I think having some new features help to give new regions more distinct identities, can expand on both competitive and single player battle experiences and can generally shake up the status quo of the main series. I don't think fans would generally be upset over just getting the same kind of new stuff we got prior to X/Y, ie new region, Pokemon, characters, evil team, etc, but having a new way to battle is definitely nice from a marketing perspective.

As much as fans put Mega Evolution on a pedestal, myself included, I can understand why that wasn't kept around. I think that making it exclusive to just certain Pokemon put more of a limitation on the mechanic in the long run. There are still special exclusive Z-Moves and Gigantamax forms, but every Pokemon being able to use a Z-Move and at least being able to Dynamax makes better use of those features for every player. I think Dynamax/Gigantamax are better means of making older Pokemon marketable again compared to Mega Evolution partly for that reason. Regional forms are also more effective in that regard since they basically make older Pokemon new again with brand new forms and evolutions. It's still limited to a select few Pokemon each generation, but I think that being effectively new Pokemon instead of gaining a temporary new form helps to make them stand out a bit more.

Now I can understand at least some of the criticisms towards these mechanics. I definitely can't blame fans for wanting them to return to Mega Evolution to further expand upon it or being uninterested in these new mechanics knowing that they'll most likely only be available for one generation. I'm going to be heartbroken if they don't keep Max Raid Battles partly because of how it is a cool way to battle alongside other players and because I've found a ton of Shiny Pokemon from just taking part in them. Even though they are pretty tied in heavily with Dynamax/Gigantamax, I'm kind of hoping that they'll find some way to keep that feature for future games like they've done with regional forms. They may not really click with every fan for a number of reasons too, but I think that they've generally worked for what they're meant for within their respective generation. I'd like for Game Freak to keep some of these features, but I can't really blame them for wanting to mix things up with new battle methods each generation.

 

[Nicolas721]

In one hand, I can understand the fandom's frustration at this features being available for limited time only and their feeling of redundancy. But I also get GameFreak's desire to make battles a permanently changing environment.

So what's the solution? First, it should not be the only thing the game revolves about. I think SM of all things did a good job with this, as it felt like a part of the Alola ecosystem, whereas XY and SS had their gimmicks at the core of everything. Like @Bolt Strike said they should bring back distractions to satisfy people who aren't completely invested in competitive. Second, past gimmicks should be available in special modes in the Battle Tower so people who loved them could try them one more time and finding new ways to use them.

 

[RustyTrubbish]

I'll say no. They need to go back to focusing on making each Pokemon appealing on their own instead of giving Pokemon new forms. I know some people think that old Pokemon getting makeovers is a good thing, but I think it's more damaging than helpful because it just makes the new forms/variants popular while the originals get over-shadowed by their new forms for the most part. Also it just doesn't feel original or creative to me when GF should be making more of an effort to introduce completely new themes.

 

[Neyo]

I don’t think that continually adding Mega evolutions/Gigantamax/Z-moves is a sustainable idea for Pokémon. This doesn’t apply to Z-moves or Gmax as much, as they are more region-based than Megas, which aren’t inherently linked to one region.

Anyways, the idea of certain Pokémon getting an additional form, which makes them more powerful, is a wonderful idea. The problem is, is that the idea will get stale if it’s just a repeat of the same Pokémon over and over. Which means you need to add new forms every Gen. Which means that more people will demand a new form for their favorite Pokémon, and you have to add more and more, until tons of Pokémon from every Gen have them. At this point, every Pokémon will have something overpowered to their name, and balancing will be a load of horse [insert word of choice here] and nearly impossible to fix, not to mention messing up any form of competitive.

Then, the simple problem with the gimmick is that it is linked to the franchise and is more or less unremovable, unless you do a soft reboot of the series that removes the mechanic, and is therefore sure to be controversial. This runs the risk of a drop in sales of your games with people uncomfortable with the removal of the mechanic, and who have not played without it before. Additionally, this also impacts (admittedly to a lesser extent) of having all of your games with the mechanic feel less distinct and fresh.

TL;DR: Gimmicks like Megas are not sustainable and are not good for the franchise, especially if you continue with them and invest in them as a main gimmick.

 

[Kallyle]

After giving more thought to this awhile after having given my answer, I have a slightly different opinion on whether Game Freak should keep making new regional burst mechanics (which I think is a term that collectively fits these temporary power-up features more than "gimmicks" do). Although I still lean closer to 'no,' I will be changing my answer to 'maybe' and now take the stance that adding regional burst mechanics is fine if it isn't the main or only focus of the game and is explained beyond a few throwaway lines.

While Mega Evolution was the big draw for XY and later ORAS, they didn't really encompass the whole games and were instead integrated into the greater themes and forces that those games had. It also helps that Mega Evolution was an expansion of the evolution phenomenon and introduced us to the concept of Infinity Energy, which is implied to be not only derived from a Pokémon's life force but is also implied to be the force responsible for Pokémon evolution in general. Z-Moves and the Z-Crystals/Z-Power behind this Burst Mechanic were a little more important than Megas in terms of plot importance, but it was handled so they were merely one part of the region's overall tradition rather than being the region's culture itself. I also liked how Z-Power was tied into the lore as being the same energy as Ultra Wormholes, as well as the Z-Crystals being remnants of a broken, abused Necrozma's body that the Tapu's nature powers adjusted to and possibly purified/refined. Then we have Dynamax. While I personally like the mechanic and think that it's the most balanced Burst Mechanic in terms of double battles, there are a few problems have with it.

The biggest problem is that it goes against my bolded statement regarding my new outlook on regional mechanics, which is that the entire game revolves and Dynamax (and Max Raid Battles as an extension). While the Gym Challenge is technically the big cultural thing for Galar lore-wise, the integration of Dynamax into that aspect of the region's culture has resulted in the region revolving their tradition around it to the point where the Major League Gyms and the main stadium in Wyndon are built around it. It gets to such a point where other portions of Galar's culture don't get to be explored by us players and is also ignored in-universe as well to the point an entire city gets neglected just because it lacks a Power Spot to Dynamax. It also doesn't help that the big explanation for why these Power Spots and Dynamax as a whole are even a thing in Galar is once again due to pieces of a broken legendary whose origins aren't even properly explored unlike they were with Necrozma. And don't even get me started on how Gigantamax is only partially explained on the Isle of Armor DLC...

The main problem I currently have with burst mechanics as of SwSh and any new ones inevitably added in the future is that they are currently treated as the type of temporary marketing gimmicks a vocal portion of the fandom perceives them as, complete with very flimsy explanations that don't really add anything to the Pokémon World as a whole. Some individuals in the fandom might treat regional burst Mechanics as gimmicks no matter how you slice it, but if Game Freak and the rest of TPCi continue to integrate them exactly like SwSh did in future titles, then I can't blame them for thinking that way.

As for whether or not Game Freak should focus on or expand upon previous burst mechanics, I think there's a way to do so that provides a balance between keeping things fresh and not constantly reinventing the wheel. I think certain mechanics should be 'rotated' depending on a couple of criteria:

1. The returning mechanics have something to offer the region that doesn't encroach on territory the current regional power-up already fulfills. For example, Mega Evolution should come back in situations where the central mechanic of that region doesn't revolve around power-up form changes, while things like Z-Moves should only be available if the regional mechanic doesn't have involve transforming moves into stronger moves. I personally feel like this is the reason Game Freak left out Mega Evolution and Z-Moves in SwSh, as aspects of those mechanics are already present in Dynamax, though I wouldn't hold my breath for any of them to return.
2. There is a lore reason why such a mechanic could be present in that region. Mega Evolution fits this criterion for the most part since it just needs a Key Stone + the Pokémon holding its Mega Stone. Z-Moves could be justified by Necrozma pieces ending up in the region either due to Ultra Wormhole activity or having said region contain strong cultural ties to Alola. My point is that if certain Burst Mechanics (beyond Mega Evolution) have a strong lore justification (and possibly expansion) and/or cultural ties to the region it was introduced in, I don't see why it couldn't pop up again. This criterion would also be a good way for the Pokémon World to feel more connected again since Dexit gets in the way of that.
3. Don't treat the reintroduced Burst Mechanic as just some random addition, but don't overshadow the region's native one either. What I mean is that if you're going to reintroduce an old mechanic, you should add some new additions to it instead of merely relying on what it already has. By some, I mean merely a handful of Megas/signature Z-Moves for the aces of important characters (or at least a prominent of older Pokémon on their team) and possibly the region's starters as well assuming they don't plan on adding said starters as part of their gimmick. I'm talking about a range of 5 to 10; enough to satisfy some fans of the older Burst Mechanic, but not enough to overshadow the region's native power-up and take away too many resources.
4. As more Burst Mechanics are introduced into the franchise, try to limit the amount of reintroduced Burst Mechanics to a maximum of two. An issue with new Burst Mechanics ever generation is the potential oversaturation. While I do think that Game Freak shouldn't make every Burst Mechanic one and done (which seems to be why people have a problem with them and refer to them as gimmicks in the first place), I also acknowledge that too many battle mechanics make the games a bit too complex to fully get into and enjoy. The first criterion somewhat regulates this through eliminating redundant mechanics, but if more than one returning can scratch the same itch down the line, then the mechanic that would make the most sense should take priority.
5. If Game Freak can't think of a new Burst Mechanic or have an idea that's too similar to a previous mechanic, they should either revisit the older one or forego Burst Mechanics for that region entirely. This is a last resort for Game Freak since they are so adamant of doing something different every time, but this is also a valid option so Game Freak can save their creative juices for other parts of the game or can end up coming with something more creative next generation.

As long as Game Freak/TPCi can do those things, then I don't see why they shouldn't have certain Burst Mechanics get revisited alongside the shiny new toy of the new region outside of time constraints.

EDIT: I just realized there's no 'Maybe' option. @SpinyShell can you please add one?

 

[WyndonCalling]

The biggest problem is that it goes against my bolded statement regarding my new outlook on regional mechanics, which is that the entire game revolves and Dynamax (and Max Raid Battles as an extension). While the Gym Challenge is technically the big cultural thing for Galar lore-wise, the integration of Dynamax into that aspect of the region's culture has resulted in the region revolving their tradition around it to the point where the Major League Gyms and the main stadium in Wyndon are built around it. It gets to such a point where other portions of Galar's culture don't get to be explored by us players and is also ignored in-universe as well to the point an entire city gets neglected just because it lacks a Power Spot to Dynamax.

This is interesting, because for my money Galar is exactly how you work a major new one-off mechanic into the singleplayer experience. I've always been very comfortable allowing my suspension of disbelief to take the strain of all the nonsense in Pokémon (it's basically all just magic), but what Galar nails is how the region reacts to that mechanic, making it the focus of sporting and cultural life, replete with cheering crowds built into the soundtrack - it all feels very credible on a human level. Even Spikemuth works really well for me, because it's clearly an analogy for Grimsby/Scunthorpe/Blackpool/hundreds of other dilapidated, post-industrial coastal towns, and the impact of Dynamax is as good a way to explain that as any other dry, real-world reasoning.

 

[nickdt]

Generation Gimmicks aren't bad perse. What makes them bad is giving them to Pokemon that don't realisitically need them (Which are also mostly the fan favorites and the OP mons), instead of mons that need them. This is why i don't like Mega Evolution at all, they are imbalanced as heck because of it.

Its also why i like Dynamax/Gigantamax (Sure, Gengar and Charizard got another gimmick), but at least it isn't as OP as Mega Evolution, since it only raises the HP stat, only lasts for three turns and basically limits a switch, since then it worns off.

 

[WyndonCalling]

Its also why i like Dynamax/Gigantamax (Sure, Gengar and Charizard got another gimmick), but at least it isn't as OP as Mega Evolution, since it only raises the HP stat, only lasts for three turns and basically limits a switch, since then it worns off.

Oh, I would gladly test this if you wanted to limit yourself to Mega Evolution while I get to use Dynamax. The real issue with Dynamax isn't the HP boost nor the additional 50% or so added to the base power of each move, but the snowballing stat boosts. Yeah, my Cinderace is nigh-unkillable and spamming Z-moves for only three turns, but after that it still retains the effects of a Max Airstream and two Max Knuckles - to which the only response is often to Dynamax in kind.

I've always felt Mega Evolutions were actually fairly balanced; though they've dragged in the game ever more towards a nightmarishly offensive bent, they're very easy to see coming and their lack of an item is a very real limitation (for example, a regular Scizor with Choice Band is actually more powerful than Mega Scizor, without using up that precious Mega slot). Dynamax can burst out of nowhere and easily grab a string of absurd stat boosts while retaining the effects of items (or even temporarily switch off the limiting effects of Choice items, so you can get the boosts at leisure before settling in for a mono-attacking sweep) and the only real balancing factor is that the opponent can use it too, in order to stall out your turns or get the jump ahead of you.

 

[Esserise]

The main problem I currently have with burst mechanics as of SwSh and any new ones inevitably added in the future is that they are currently treated as the type of temporary marketing gimmicks a vocal portion of the fandom perceives them as, complete with very flimsy explanations that don't really add anything to the Pokémon World as a whole.

See, I just struggle immensely to buy into the idea that a major mechanic, which undoubtedly goes through tons of conceptualizing and playtesting and redesigning, eating up tons of development time and energy, and then gets to set the fundamental terms of the battling scene for a whole generation, can really be put down as a "temporary marketing gimmick." The profound impact of Megas/Z/Dynamax on the very core of the game is simply too significant to be compared to the likes of Pepsi Holiday Spice or Heinz's Shrek-themed green ketchup.

for example, a regular Scizor with Choice Band is actually more powerful than Mega Scizor, without using up that precious Mega slot

For as weird as Mega Heracross is, it's cases like the above that make me wonder why, for the more powerful Pokémon that didn't really need a straight buff, they didn't take more of a cue from Mega Hera by using Megas as a way to give the exceptional Pokémon access to more unusual play styles other than the ones they always adhere to and excel at.

 

[Norzan]

instead of mons that need them

Heracross (this one is arguable), Blastoise, Pinsir, Ampharos, Mawile, Aerodactyl, Charizard (unironically needed it), Sceptile, Kangaskhan, Houndoom, Gardevoir, Medicham, Manetric, Banette, Absol, Abomasnow, Pidgeot, Beedrill, Steelix, Sharpedo, Camerupt, Glalie, Altaria, Loppuny, Gallade, Audino and probably some other that i'm missing. All of these needed one and they got it.

If anything, the ratio of pokemon that needed and got it and pokemon that didn't needed it but got it is far more biased to the former.

This is why i don't like Mega Evolution at all, they are imbalanced as heck because of it.

I can count with one hand the actual unbalanced megas and that's Rayquaza, Salamence, Lucario, Gengar and Kangaskhan.

Its also why i like Dynamax/Gigantamax (Sure, Gengar and Charizard got another gimmick), but at least it isn't as OP as Mega Evolution, since it only raises the HP stat, only lasts for three turns and basically limits a switch, since then it worns off.

Dynamax is far more broken than Mega Evolution. All pokemon have access to it and gives the strong pokemon a big boost, basically giving them a win button. I know people here don't care for Smogon, but they did extensive testing and found out that is completely unbalanced by giving an unfair advantage to already extremely powerful pokemon. Double the health stat and basically every move being turned into a Z-move that also can either boost a stat or setup weather is insanity. Those three turns make a gigantic difference and can turn the tide of battle so hard that is not even funny.

Not to mention you don't even know who's gonna Dynamax, while Mega Evolution is far more predictable by just looking at the opponent's team.

 

[Esserise]

I can count with one hand the actual unbalanced megas and that's Rayquaza, Salamence, Lucario, Gengar and Kangaskhan.

Granted that it uses the all-natural version of Mega Evolution, but I'd also toss Groudon on this list.

 

[Neyo]

I can count with one hand the actual unbalanced megas and that's Rayquaza, Salamence, Lucario, Gengar and Kangaskhan.

Mawile, Beedrill, and Lopunny can all be pretty OP, as well. And let’s not forget Primal Groupon and Kyogre.

 

[Norzan]

Granted that it uses the all-natural version of Mega Evolution, but I'd also toss Groudon on this list.

It suffers from Landorus-Therian syndrome, a pokemon so good at what it does that you can splash on every Uber team, but it's not overcentralizing to the point you need to have one or more very specific pokemon to deal with it. Primal Kyogre did get the short end of the stick, given that it's not really better than normal Kyogre.

Mawile, Beedrill, and Lopunny can all be pretty OP

They really aren't, Mawile is really the only arguable one and it's a big stretch. And honestly, they deserve the big boost they got given the fact they wallowed in mediocrity since their inception.

 

[Lanstar]

I follow Smogon tiering quite a lot - and these were the following Megas that got sent to ubers in Gen 7:
Kangaskhan, Gengar, Lucario, Salamence, and Metagross.

Mega Rayquaza was even more broken - It got banned from Ubers, and players made an unofficial tier known as "Anything Goes" for players to use it, which was quite hilarious.

Curiously enough, in Gen 6, they actually banned Mega Mawile and Sableye - but the walls and breakers introduced in Gen 7 helped balance them out to be less broken.

Dynamax, on the other hand... They banned it in every Smogon tier, including Ubers and doubles. The reason: It reduced the amount of skill too far a degree, as predicting when the dynamax would occur was impossible to do consistantly - and once it occurs, it breaks tons of game mechanics and snowballs wins with ease.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I think I have a few suggestions that could help make Dynamax less broken:

1. Make it so that in order for a Pokemon to be able to use the mechanic in the first place, it can't be holding an item. And no, having a consumable item be used up during the battle or losing your item via Knock-Off won't work; the Pokemon has to come into the battle completely itemless. I think this would help immensely with making Dynamax less broken not just because it puts it on even ground with Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves (which similarly came at the cost of a Pokemon's item slot), but because so many Pokemon rely in their held items heavily enough that forgoing them for the sake of being able to Dynamax would be a tough decision to make for a player. It would also help make battles much less of a guessing game in general, since the number of Pokemon that would be able to use the mechanic effectively would be greatly reduced with this condition.
2. Reduce the power of Max Moves one way or another. I know that Z-Moves have a much higher damage output on paper since they can goo up to like 200 base power, but they're mostly balanced out by the fact that they can only be used once per battle. Max Moves on the other hand overcompensate for their lower damage with their mandatory effects, resulting in them being ironically much more powerful, so this needs to be mitigated somehow. Either reduce their damage a bit and/or make it so that if the opponent uses Protect or Detect it negates the secondary effect altogether just like how the barriers used by Dynamax wild Pokemon do the same.

And I think that's it, since any more nerfs potentially run the risk of making Dynamax too underpowered, but idk, what do you all think? Would these alterations make Dynamax more balanced or would it still be too broken? ...Or did I go way overboard and nerf it too much?

 

[Norzan]

I follow Smogon tiering quite a lot - and these were the following Megas that got sent to ubers in Gen 7:
Kangaskhan, Gengar, Lucario, Salamence, and Metagross.

Completely forgot Mega Metagross was Ubers in Gen 7, funny because it was OU in Gen 6. I guess basically being a counter to the Tapus, some of the biggest threats in OU and also were introduced in Gen 7, gave it way more usage to the point of being banned.

The messed up thing about Mega Rayquaza is how GF decided to give everything to it and not really give anything to Primal Kyogre. GF seems to work in extremes a lot of the times, they either make something incredibly broken, or make something extremely underwhelming or outright bad. Something in the middle is not exactly the majority.

 

[WyndonCalling]

The messed up thing about Mega Rayquaza is how GF decided to give everything to it and not really give anything to Primal Kyogre. GF seems to work in extremes a lot of the times, they either make something incredibly broken, or make something extremely underwhelming or outright bad. Something in the middle is not exactly the majority.

At risk of getting a little OT I think Primal Kyogre was, like base Groudon before it, simply a victim of type and weather interactions. The problem with the Ground/Fire and Water dichotomy is that it's never been mechanically balanced within the game itself - Ground and Fire might be associated with a diametrically-opposed philosophy to Water, but, well, Water simply beats it (as it should, mind). Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are perfectly logical extensions of the base abilities of both Groudon and Kyogre, it's simply that the former ends up being far more mechanically important due to Groudon's Water weakness.

Also, I think it's worth remembering that Primal Kyogre is still a monster through and through - the reason you don't see it as often is because A: it's competing directly with Primal Groudon and B: it also happens to have a bad matchup against Primal Groudon.