Thoughts on the truth regarding Lillie and UB-01 (Minor Spoilers)?

[UB-01 Kenobi]

Did it say in-game something about her husband?

Her husband was a man named Mohn who researched Ultra Space and went missing at some point. After that, Lusamine started looking into the UBS and eventually went coocoo.

There's also a guy named Mohn who looks an awful lot like Lillie and Gladion who runs Poke Pelago. It's never confirmed but it's heavily implied that this Mohn is Lusamine's missing husband and he somehow got amnesia like the Fallers because he interacted with Ultra Space too much

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Ultra Beasts are creatures from ultra space and had no ties to any human. Pretty glad about this to be honest. The word Fallers makes no sense at all. Should have called them multi-verse travelers.

 

[Esserise]

The word Fallers makes no sense at all. Should have called them multi-verse travelers.

They are people who FALL out of a wormhole. The term is perfectly apt, if somewhat colloquial.

 

[Team Gaara]

Her husband was a man named Mohn who researched Ultra Space and went missing at some point. After that, Lusamine started looking into the UBS and eventually went coocoo.

There's also a guy named Mohn who looks an awful lot like Lillie and Gladion who runs Poke Pelago. It's never confirmed but it's heavily implied that this Mohn is Lusamine's missing husband and he somehow got amnesia like the Fallers because he interacted with Ultra Space too much

I know Mohn's in Poke Pelago, but I forgot they said he researched Ultra Space and his going missing is the reason for Lusamine's obsession~ I forgot about amnesia~ No wonder he never mentions his family to you~

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

I know Mohn's in Poke Pelago, but I forgot they said he researched Ultra Space and his going missing is the reason for Lusamine's obsession~ I forgot about amnesia~ No wonder he never mentions his family to you~

yeah there's like only one optional convo with Gladion that mentions Mohn's relationship with Lusamine at all, I would have missed it if i hadn't known to look for it. It's so off-hand i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people missed it or forget it even if they do see it

 

[DasManiac]

I noticed Lusamine, Lillie, and Gladion's resemblance to the Ultra Beasts right away and I think it makes sense with the storyline. Lusamine sees the Ultra Beasts as the ultimate representation of beauty and I think she purposely styled herself after Pheromosa, Lillie after Nihilego, and Gladion after Xurkitree (he looks more like Xurkitree instead of Buzzwole). As for Mohn, I'm still not convinced the hillbilly from Poke Pelago is the Professor Mohn who was Lusamine's husband. Colress has a very strong resemblance though. Would not be surprised if he turned out to be Lusamine's brother or something.

 

[Necrozma]

While I wish it would have turned out that Lillie had some connection to Nihilego, I also appreciate the fact that Game Freak intentionally trolled us. Well done!

 

[Esserise]

Lusamine sees the Ultra Beasts as the ultimate representation of beauty and I think she purposely styled herself after Pheromosa, Lillie after Nihilego, and Gladion after Xurkitree

As far as we're told, none of the Beasts other than Nihilego and Guzzlord had ever been seen prior to Lusamine opening up wormholes all over Alola.

he looks more like Xurkitree instead of Buzzwole

Keep in mind that Gladion himself chose the clothing that he currently wears because he hated how Lusamine always picked his clothes for him. He's not going to have a UB "counterpart" based on the appearance that we see, and even if he did, I'd imagine he'd be styled after Nihilego as well since that's the one that Lusamine was fixated on.

As for Mohn, I'm still not convinced the hillbilly from Poke Pelago is the Professor Mohn who was Lusamine's husband.

Pokémon doesn't generally break the One Steve Limit. Besides...

• There was a professor named Mohn who is said to have "discovered" the Ultra Wormholes
• Gladion tells us that his father was the one who "first confirmed the existence of Ultra Wormholes"
• We know that people who get stuck in the wormholes can emerge with amnesia, and Gladion tells us that his father disappeared into a wormhole - amnesia would explain why Poké Pelago Mohn has never sought out his family
• Mohn has the same bleach-blond hair and green eyes as the rest of the Aethers

How much more do you need?

Colress has a very strong resemblance though. Would not be surprised if he turned out to be Lusamine's brother or something.

Aside from being (part) blond and previously being clad in a lot of white, what similarities are there?

 

[godiego]

Aside from being (part) blond and previously being clad in a lot of white, what similarities are there?

well, taking a page out of the UB-People's book, sounds like we have a match.

 

[Lufenium]

Keep in mind that Gladion himself chose the clothing that he currently wears because he hated how Lusamine always picked his clothes for him. He's not going to have a UB "counterpart" based on the appearance that we see, and even if he did, I'd imagine he'd be styled after Nihilego as well since that's the one that Lusamine was fixated on.

I keep envisioning Gladion dressed like Lillie and it's a...bizarre image.

Maybe its mimicry of a young a girl is Nihilego trying to act more human so Lusamine will feel more affection for it..

Now that I think about this and consider the likely theory that Lusamine was possessed by Nihilego for an extended period of time, perhaps they picked up their habits (of mimicry of young girls) directly from Lusamine herself, rather than mimicry of something else in an attempt to grow closer to her. Which was arguably unneeded, given her fusion with them.

 

[Esserise]

the likely theory that Lusamine was possessed by Nihilego for an extended period of time

I still don't find this theory to be all that likely.

I mean, I hate it anyway because it deletes the most compelling element of Lusamine's downward spiral (that it was all the result of a relatable, sympathetic, fundamentally human situation) and instead chalks it up to "lol she was brainwashed by an extradimensional squid," but it's not really all that easy to reconcile with what the games tell us.

We know that the first wormhole that appeared at Aether Paradise was opened using gases that had been extracted from Cosmog's body. The second wormhole event, where they manifest all over Alola and Lusamine departs for Ultra Space, was achieved using Cosmog's full power when it was stored inside that crate. But let's look at the dialogue in the scene from our initial trip:

Wicke: That tremor... Did something happen on the lower floors?
[Nihilego appears from the Ultra Wormhole]
Lusamine: Did you come... from another world?
Hau: Miss Lusamine, stand back! That thing's...not right!
Lusamine: You poor creature...
[After the battle against Nihilego]
Lusamine: So it's true... I still need that Pokémon. I need to get it back.
Hau: What? Miss Lusamine, did you say something?
Lusamine: That creature we just saw was undoubtedly an Ultra Beast... An unknown being from another dimension that suddenly appears from the Ultra Wormhole... It looked like it was suffering... Like it pained it to be in this strange place... I can't bear to see that happen! I will save it. And I will love it! Thank you...both of you... Thank you so much! [pause] Wicke. These two are still in the middle of their island challenge, aren't they? Please deliver them to their next island.
Wicke: O-oh! At once, ma'am!
Lusamine: I will go to check that none of our poor resident Pokémon came to any harm. And I need to speak with Mr. Faba about exactly what happened downstairs. And of course... I will have to start preparing the foundation for our newest and perhaps greatest duty yet: the protection of the Ultra Beasts!

This scene makes little sense if Lusamine has ever met with Nihilego before. She asks it if it came from another world. She says it "looked like" it was suffering, as if she's assessing it for the first time. She then declares to Wicke that the Foundation has a new mandate to protect the UBs. Granted, that could all be theatrics on her part, but I'll get to that. For now, just keep it in mind.

What's more important is that this event is what confirms to her that she can use Cosmog to open wormholes. If we cross-reference what she tells us during Aether visit #2 (that she was able to open the Aether visit #1 wormhole using Cosmog's gases, but now that she has its whole body, she can open numerous wormholes) with the judgment that she makes based on this event (that "it's true" that she needs to get Cosmog back), it paints a pretty clear picture - after Lillie stole Cosmog, they've been experimenting with the Cosmog gases they had on hand, and only just now had a breakthrough in opening a wormhole. Which is consistent with her dialogue seeming like a first impression and a reaction to an unprecedented event.

If she had successfully opened a wormhole prior to this, she would already know that she could use Cosmog's essence to do so. Nihilego's appearance in the conservation room wouldn't be "proving" to her that it's true that she needs Cosmog. And remember, the "So it's true" line is something she mutters to herself - Hau explicitly doesn't hear what she said there. Why would she be quietly saying that to herself if she'd confirmed prior to this event that she can open wormholes using Cosmog? That part can't be "theatrics," as I proposed for the rest of the dialogue.

But returning to that point about the other dialogue being faked on her part - it just feels silly to me, to say that the whole scene in the conservation area was some great, big, calculated acting performance on her part. By this point, in order to say that she's made contact with Nihilego before, you have to assume:

1. That there was some secret, undepicted, unmentioned meeting between Lusamine and Nihilego at some point prior to the story, and that the game never finds it pertinent to tell us this or elaborate on this meeting, even in the post-game.

2. That they must have some other, unmentioned way of opening wormholes, which the games never point to the existence of. This would be necessary in order to explain why the conservation area's wormhole is proof to her that she needs Cosmog for her goals - if there was a wormhole before that, then it can't have been opened in a way that pertained to Cosmog. (And, if they do have this alternative wormhole-opening capability, then why does she actually need Cosmog at all? Any rationalization is going to be a further assumption based on little to no information from the games themselves.) And...

3. That the game constructs the whole scene in the conservation area just to lie to us (when really, they could have avoided all of these problems by simply removing Lusamine from the scene before Nihilego showed up), and then never actually tells us it's a lie. (Compare it to Platinum, where we saw Cyrus give a Stirring Speech to his minions about their glorious shared purpose, and then when next we encountered him, Cyrus explains to us that he was really just yanking their chains and actually wants a universe solely for himself.)

At that point, isn't it just simpler to believe that she became genuinely unstable as a result of her natural, neurotoxin-less grief and desperation in conjunction with the slow erosion of her family until Ultra Space was all she had left to care about?

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

When I first battled Nihilego in the Aether Paradise, I quickly noticed how people said that it seemed to be saddened to be there. At the time I immediately connected that with Lillie, given her hesitation to go there and bad experience.

I'm honestly a little disappointed that the UBs don't have any connection with the human characters, but then again, I think I would have been much more weirded out if that were the case. I think what Game Freak were trying to accomplish was nothing more than a passing reference with no real significance.

 

[Lufenium]

@Esserise You raise all fine points. I'd forgot a lot of the smaller details of what took place in S/M, actually.

The only real evidence that suggest Lusamine being possessed was Lusamine's drastically different attitudes towards Lillie before and after she's defeated in ultra space. Before, she's calling Lillie ugly and wants her to leave immediately, and claiming that Lillie isn't her daughter. After the defeat, she asks Lillie "When did you become so beautiful?" which is a stark contrast to earlier. Was being defeated and released from the fusion by Nebby really enough to make her see opposite of what she solidly claimed before? It's a bit of a grey area, as all we hear afterward is that Lusamine is recovering somewhat and Lille not long after goes to Kanto for a cure. (She goes to see Bill iirc?)

 

[Esserise]

@Esserise You raise all fine points. I'd forgot a lot of the smaller details of what took place in S/M, actually.

The only real evidence that suggest Lusamine being possessed was Lusamine's drastically different attitudes towards Lillie before and after she's defeated in ultra space. Before, she's calling Lillie ugly and wants her to leave immediately, and claiming that Lillie isn't her daughter. After the defeat, she asks Lillie "When did you become so beautiful?" which is a stark contrast to earlier. Was being defeated and released from the fusion by Nebby really enough to make her see opposite of what she solidly claimed before? It's a bit of a grey area, as all we hear afterward is that Lusamine is recovering somewhat and Lille not long after goes to Kanto for a cure. (She goes to see Bill iirc?)

Once she enters Ultra Space, I think all bets are off - she's in an area filled with Nihilego, and was intent on capturing one. I think she definitely could have made contact with one at that point, which would explain the harsh tirade she throws at Lillie before the battle. Especially since it took a while for us to catch up to them; she and Guzma were in Ultra Space since before we even reach Poni Island. I'm just saying that I don't think any toxins were affecting her before then.

Of course, that isn't to say that she absolutely, definitely was affected by the toxins even in the Ultra Space scene. I believe that it is still reasonably plausible that the "When did you start becoming beautiful?" moment could just as easily be a simple moment of pure saccharine sentiment. It wouldn't be very far out of bounds for this series, especially not after AZ's ending.

 

[DasManiac]

As far as we're told, none of the Beasts other than Nihilego and Guzzlord had ever been seen prior to Lusamine opening up wormholes all over Alola.



Keep in mind that Gladion himself chose the clothing that he currently wears because he hated how Lusamine always picked his clothes for him. He's not going to have a UB "counterpart" based on the appearance that we see, and even if he did, I'd imagine he'd be styled after Nihilego as well since that's the one that Lusamine was fixated on.



Pokémon doesn't generally break the One Steve Limit. Besides...

• There was a professor named Mohn who is said to have "discovered" the Ultra Wormholes
• Gladion tells us that his father was the one who "first confirmed the existence of Ultra Wormholes"
• We know that people who get stuck in the wormholes can emerge with amnesia, and Gladion tells us that his father disappeared into a wormhole - amnesia would explain why Poké Pelago Mohn has never sought out his family
• Mohn has the same bleach-blond hair and green eyes as the rest of the Aethers

How much more do you need?



Aside from being (part) blond and previously being clad in a lot of white, what similarities are there?

I did not know Gladion chose his own clothes but he still resembles Xurkitree greatly. On the subject of Mohn, I just find it hard to believe that the hillbilly from Poke Pelago was Lusamine's husband. Unless he really let himself go, I just find it hard to believe that he was her husband. As for Colress, the physical resemblance to Lusamine and her family is very strong. He just fits right in with the family. He's white, blond haired, sciencey, and has green eyes. He's got to be related to them. The resemblance is striking. It'll just be my headcanon that he is Lusamine's brother, cousin or something.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I just find it hard to believe that the hillbilly from Poke Pelago was Lusamine's husband. Unless he really let himself go, I just find it hard to believe that he was her husband.

That's exactly why Esserise brought up the fact that the Ultra Wormholes can cause amnesia. The Mohn we know now is likely not the same as he was when Lusamine married him.

Also, personality is not really something passed down in a family. There's a huge amount of differences between Lillie, Gladion, and Lusamine personality-wise. Colress having an interest in science doesn't really indicate that he's related.

 

[Esserise]

I did not know Gladion chose his own clothes but he still resembles Xurkitree greatly.

That's a strange definition of "greatly."

On the subject of Mohn, I just find it hard to believe that the hillbilly from Poke Pelago was Lusamine's husband. Unless he really let himself go, I just find it hard to believe that he was her husband.

Some people can surprise you. Maybe Lusamine doesn't share our society's same bullshit standards of beauty.

As for Colress, the physical resemblance to Lusamine and her family is very strong. He just fits right in with the family. He's white, blond haired, sciencey, and has green eyes. He's got to be related to them. The resemblance is striking. It'll just be my headcanon that he is Lusamine's brother, cousin or something.

Colress has yellow eyes, for one thing, and multicolored hair - neither of which are exactly the signature traits of the Aethers that we know. Frankly, Bianca is an exact fit for the criteria you've laid out - she's white, has green eyes, yellow hair, and is a scientist. But I really don't think she's related to them.

You're free to headcanon all you like, but be aware that your supporting evidence is completely superficial.

 

[Team Gaara]

I noticed Lusamine, Lillie, and Gladion's resemblance to the Ultra Beasts right away and I think it makes sense with the storyline. Lusamine sees the Ultra Beasts as the ultimate representation of beauty and I think she purposely styled herself after Pheromosa, Lillie after Nihilego, and Gladion after Xurkitree (he looks more like Xurkitree instead of Buzzwole). As for Mohn, I'm still not convinced the hillbilly from Poke Pelago is the Professor Mohn who was Lusamine's husband. Colress has a very strong resemblance though. Would not be surprised if he turned out to be Lusamine's brother or something.

As the others noted, Gladion's current clothes were not picked by Lusamine, though I did always find he resembled Xirkitree more than Buzzwole. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Mohn is indeed Lusamine's husband. They wouldn't go out of their way to give two characters the exact same name like that amidst mentioning that Lusamine's husband Mohn went missing and potentially contacted amnesia. Colress being in the games was a nice surprise, but I don't see much to suggest a relation to Lusamine.

I keep envisioning Gladion dressed like Lillie and it's a...bizarre image.

I'd love to see the fanart~ XD

@Esserise You raise all fine points. I'd forgot a lot of the smaller details of what took place in S/M, actually.

The only real evidence that suggest Lusamine being possessed was Lusamine's drastically different attitudes towards Lillie before and after she's defeated in ultra space. Before, she's calling Lillie ugly and wants her to leave immediately, and claiming that Lillie isn't her daughter. After the defeat, she asks Lillie "When did you become so beautiful?" which is a stark contrast to earlier. Was being defeated and released from the fusion by Nebby really enough to make her see opposite of what she solidly claimed before? It's a bit of a grey area, as all we hear afterward is that Lusamine is recovering somewhat and Lille not long after goes to Kanto for a cure. (She goes to see Bill iirc?)

Yes, they do go to seek Bill, based on his Clefairy transformation experience~ ;3 Anyway, to me, Lusamine is a very unstable person. She legitimately did feel betrayed by her children and began to hate them for it. I don't think Lusamine was possessed when she was hurling insults at them, but I do think Nihilego fusing with her raised the level of her rage by a lot. Once she was released by Nebby's power, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to believe that she could now see the love for her children again (Lillie mentioned when grabbing the other version's flute in your game that her mother did genuinely love them before), so I can see that once she was freed from her Ultra Beast obsession, she would go back to that mindset. But that's just me.

I did not know Gladion chose his own clothes but he still resembles Xurkitree greatly. On the subject of Mohn, I just find it hard to believe that the hillbilly from Poke Pelago was Lusamine's husband. Unless he really let himself go, I just find it hard to believe that he was her husband. As for Colress, the physical resemblance to Lusamine and her family is very strong. He just fits right in with the family. He's white, blond haired, sciencey, and has green eyes. He's got to be related to them. The resemblance is striking. It'll just be my headcanon that he is Lusamine's brother, cousin or something.

Your entire basis for not believing Mohn is Lusamine's husband is based on your own notions of who you think she would marry? Isn't that a bit of a reach? This in the same series where Big Lenora's husband is a scrawny white guy? I think it's perfectly reasonable, as I explained before, that Mohn is indeed Lusamine's husband, regardless of what he may or may not have looked like before inhabiting Poke Pelago. As for Colress, like @Esserise said, the eye color is actually not the same and just generally speaking, there isn't anything to suggest Colress is related to them~ Possible, yes. Likely? Not much, IMO~

 

[TouyaShiro]

Of course, that isn't to say that she absolutely, definitely was affected by the toxins even in the Ultra Space scene. I believe that it is still reasonably plausible that the "When did you start becoming beautiful?" moment could just as easily be a simple moment of pure saccharine sentiment.

Has it already been mentioned in this thread that apparently some of Nihilego's neurotoxins remain inside her body? This is stuff that you mostly hear in the postgame Ultra Beast mission, where you hear Wicke talking about the reason Lillie left with Lusamine for Kanto - to find Bill and use the cell separation system or whatever that he once had Red use to get himself out of his own sticky situation of being fused with a Pokémon. So it's at least safe to know that Lusamine was definitely affected by neurotoxins somewhere between then and at the very least, after fusing with Nihilego, though the extent of this may not be fully figured out by us for a long while...

With that being said, doesn't she go ballistic when Lillie and Gladion come by shortly before Lusamine and Guzma depart for Ultra Space? I know she has a shouting speech bubble when referring to these two, but I forget if it was then or if it was later.

 

[Esserise]

Has it already been mentioned in this thread that apparently some of Nihilego's neurotoxins remain inside her body? This is stuff that you mostly hear in the postgame Ultra Beast mission, where you hear Wicke talking about the reason Lillie left with Lusamine for Kanto - to find Bill and use the cell separation system or whatever that he once had Red use to get himself out of his own sticky situation of being fused with a Pokémon. So it's at least safe to know that Lusamine was definitely affected by neurotoxins somewhere between then and at the very least, after fusing with Nihilego, though the extent of this may not be fully figured out by us for a long while...

I assume that the neurotoxins they're referring to entered her system when she actually fused with Nihilego. There was physical contact between them there, so at the very least, she must have come into contact with toxins then. What's harder to determine is if the toxins ever entered her body before then. Certainly it's plausible that it she could have been injected at any time while she was in Ultra Space. But it's probably worth noting that Wicke does say that Nihilego injects its victims with its toxins, which suggests that physical contact is necessary. And I think the only conceivable time prior to the story where this could have happened was during the experiment where Mohn was lost. We're not told that there was any contact between her and Nihilego during that incident, though, so if that's what they intended to suggest, then they could have made it much clearer.

This is slightly frustrating to me. Generally speaking, I like Lusamine for what she brings to the story. But I have to admit that her wildly crazed behavior really does make a lot more sense if it's put in the context of her natural tendencies toward love, caring, and protectiveness being amplified to extreme levels by Nihilego. However, the story doesn't seem to want to verify that this is what's going on.

And yet it almost feels beyond the pale to think anything otherwise. The event that kicked off her descent into madness was an experiment involving Ultra Space. There's theorizing, and then there's just putting two and two together - Nihilego makes you crazy, and Lusamine is crazy now but wasn't until her husband tried to reach Ultra Space. It's really no wonder that people have come to the conclusion that her behavior was influenced by Nihilego's neurotoxins - it's hard to be told what we're told and not arrive at that notion. But why doesn't the game just come out and say it, then?

If they could simply say outright that her behavior throughout the story was influenced by Nihilego (which I am becoming more convinced was the intention after all, and after some thought, I wouldn't even really mind it - in fact, I now think it would help her character), instead of beating around the bush with vague statements, this would all be a lot easier.

Assuming that a Nihilego *did* latch onto her at the time of Mohn's experiment, I have to imagine that it occurred without her knowledge. The experiment involved Cosmog, but Lusamine doesn't confirm until the events of the game that Cosmog is necessary to open Ultra Wormholes. So perhaps Mohn opened and fell into a wormhole, and an the intervening moments, a Nihilego got loose, injected Lusamine who was elsewhere in the facility, and then retreated back into Ultra Space.

With that being said, doesn't she go ballistic when Lillie and Gladion come by shortly before Lusamine and Guzma depart for Ultra Space? I know she has a shouting speech bubble when referring to these two, but I forget if it was then or if it was later.

She does use a shouty speech bubble before entering Ultra Space, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that she's enraged and/or making an impassioned statement.