Too Many HMs?

[kokiri]

IMO, yes. I have had to waste too many slots on HM moves. It's frustrating. Most of them you only use once or twice, too! Like Rock Smash, Waterfall, and especially Whirlpool.

 

[FabuVinny]

Well, Whirlpool isn't an HM in Generation III, though I agree that we are verging on too many now - particularly the ones with not much use in battle. In particular, three water HMs is too many. I tought Surf to my Linoone in Emerald, but in Ruby my Marshtomp just had them and Earthquake.

A related thread.

 

[Dratini927]

I could see it being better if they didn't make the HM's have the same type of move. I mean, we have 3/8 being Water ones, and 1 that is just pathetic, Rock Smash. If there were some other types to HM's, then I could see them being more handy, and we wouldn't have to make so many "HM Slaves."

 

[T_MASTER]

Agreed, there are too many. I could see 3 ways of fixing this problem

1. Making all of the HMs matter as much as Surf or Fly in the field.
2. Making them more useful in battle.
3. Averaging out the type ratio.

These to me seem like good ideas on how to make them not such a waste of space.:-/

 

[Another Fan]

To me, Water has to have less HMs.

And rock smash to become an optional move again. To me it always seemed like they made it so weak cause it was an optional move and then they flip it around. Annoying.

 

[*Colette*]

Probably we will get MORE HMs in D/P

HM moves are weak (except Surf) but if I wanna end my games I must use them. This is really annoying.

 

[FabuVinny]

Strength and Fly are strong. (Waterfall too, though that doesn't count since Surf is better.)

But Rock Smash and Cut... Maybe we could just use the stylus for them and forget the HMs...

 

[BenRG]

HMs - The Dilemma

I agree that there are too many HMs needed now to get around the game world. Indeed, it is now getting difficult to have a Pokémon team with the needed HMs and reasonable combat capability. Additionally, some do seem to be partly redundant, especially the massive group of water-type moves required for getting around on (and below) the waves.

I wonder if the way out of this would be to muck around with the nature of the HMs so that they remain in their non-combat form even if they are not available in their combat form. Remeber that, in their field versions, they are just special skills that turn natural abilities to help the player get around. If this path was taken, then Dig would have to become an HM.

Alternately, I suppose you could increase the number of move slots (this is a brain-bug of mine) or include specialised HM-only slots.

IMHO, if there was some way found to make HMs less space-consuming, I would like to see the following moves available: Cut, Dig, Dive, Flash, Fly, Headbutt, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Waterfall, Whirlpool.

Otherwise, I'd like to see an amalgamation where the HM Surf teaches the field mode all water-type HM moves and one can obtain TMs for the combat modes of Dive, Whirlpool and Waterfall. Similarly, the HM Strength includes the field modes of Rock Smash and Headbutt with seperate TMs teaching the combat mode. Just to make things really interesting, though, learning the move by levelling up teaches both the combat and field forms. In all cases, the field form of a skill would persist even if the combat form is overwritten.

PS - I would also like a multi-region game (Houen, Johto, Kanto, Oore, Orange and Sevii Islands) with all of the TMs for that region available from the superstore for that region. That would allow you to create some really interesting movesets, I think. :thumbup:

 

[CDrayan]

The HMs do kind of get annoying, yes. Rock Smash, which can be useful in the field, isn't very effective in battle.

Good thing the move deleter was introduced in GSC, or our Pokémon would be stuck with their HM moves for the rest of their lives.

And it's also good that HMs can't be forgotten without that move deleter, in order to avoid a dead end situation, making you unable to continue on.

 

[Pieomon]

Surf is really the only TM I use regularly in battle. Fly has enoguh power to be used too though. I give it to my stalling toxic crobat (toxic, protect, fly, protect, fly...)

 

[The Dude]

Surf is really the only TM I use regularly in battle. Fly has enoguh power to be used too though. I give it to my stalling toxic crobat (toxic, protect, fly, protect, fly...)

Strength and Waterfall are also decent moves.
I only use two HM slaves: Tropius and Chinchou. Tropius was made to give us a cool HM slave. I really don't see the problem. As long as there aren't any new HMs, I'll be happy.

 

[Rapiido]

Strength and Waterfall are also decent moves.
I only use two HM slaves: Tropius and Chinchou. Tropius was made to give us a cool HM slave. I really don't see the problem. As long as there aren't any new HMs, I'll be happy.

I don't get why some people only catch Tropius for an HM slave... It can be really strong withOUT the HM's. I only use Fly on it..

Anyways, I think there COULD be a lot less HM's. OK not a LOT less.. But..

Cut/Rock Smash/Dive/Strength- They should just be turned into regular moves...
Waterfall- Goldeen and Seaking can already learn it...
Surf/Fly/Flash- Only good HM's there are...

 

[watergod]

I agree with BenRG that HMs should teach the combat and field skill, but the combat skill can be forgotten while the field skill is retained, or even just not have HMs teach combat skills at all and only have field skills. Leaving the combat skills to be replaced naturally or via TM. This would also mean that more HMs could be added with very little, if any, reason to complain.

 

[McGraw]

Strength and Waterfall are also decent moves.

Replace the word "decent" with "obsolete" and you would be correct.

Surf is the only useable HM attack in competitive play.

I think 8 HMs is the limit, because you only need 2 slaves. As a side point; in RSE, you don't even need HM cut to complete the game.

 

[FabuVinny]

8 HMs is the limit because there are only 8 gyms and you can only be forced to give up so many move slots.

Strength and Waterfall are alright on the right Pokémon, though Surf is obviously better.

 

[Juputoru]

Strength is quite good when you first get it, and Waterfall would be a more viable in-game move(at least for a time) if you got it before Surf. Of course, that wouldn't make any sense unless you could somehow go up a waterfall while starting and ending on dry land.

Other than those two...Rock Smash sucks(I can't think of ANYWHERE that you might get trapped in forever if your Pokemon forgot it mid-battle, so why make it an HM?), Fly is God for getting around in-game but mediocre in battle, Cut is okay when you first get it but loses usefulness(both in and out of battle. You never *need* it to get ahead, but at least it lets you get all sorts of free stuff past those cuttable trees) fast, Dive lets you get to some neat places...that you only NEED to go to once, and it's mediocre in battle as well, and Flash is completely useless - you don't NEED it on the field at all(if you don't mind being able to see next to nothing at times), and it's laughable in battle(might as well use Sand Attack if you HAVE to lower accuracy; at least THAT'S 100% accurate). Surf? Surf is awesome. Surf lets you get some neat places and is to Water types as Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Ice Beam is to Electric/Fire/Ice types.


The Move Deleter was a good addition thanks to many HMs becoming useless after a while, but apparently someone at Nintendo thinks that since HMs have uses in the field(at least for a time), they can afford to be crappy moves. I say that HMs should be useful(in battle) for at least one or two Gyms after you get them, and that the specific obstacles that each HM overcomes is present in a reasonable quantity ALL throughout the game.
And either make it so that you CAN'T go through dark caves without Flash(perhaps a message that says "It's too dark to see anything here. Better head back..." if you don't have anything with Flash with you upon entering said caves. And with you being forced back after the message, obviously), or else make an item that would replace Flash. A flashlight, torch, or even a carriable lamp would work. Either that or make Flash much, much more useful in battle than it is now. Or maybe even both.

 

[Another Fan]

I think both flash, cut, fly etc. are reasonable moves if they are given in a reasonable order. Flash being last, is not a reasonable order.

Really prefer it if they had less water HMs, only cause I don't use slaves and don't like my water pokemon having three water moves.

I also prefered it when rock smash was an optional thing just to get hidden secrets etc.