Trials, Gyms or Both?

[Defiant]

Reminder that we still possess the island challenge amulet, trials are not gone, all this proves is that SOME trials have been modified, if even slightly

. The hiker says "Alola! Now then...who am I?Who could I be?"

Furthermore, there are 0 buildings in Alola that even resemble a gym building, the map has not changed enough to warrant such drastic changes as replacing trials.

When talking to Gameinformer about how trials had been programmed into the game during the debugging phase, Ohmori gave the fire trial as an example of things he had to do himself for lack of resources/staff, and that is why they are something as simple as "spot the difference". I think this just means that the fire trial has been changed to something better (hopefully) now that they have the actual staff there from the beginning. Mina's trial might actually exist this time as well, if it has not been replaced altogether that is

The thing that really annoys me about this is they are basically confirming then that sun/moon were unfinished or rushed games sod anyone who bought them (I bought both)

If Ultra Sun Ultra Moon are how the games should have been etc why not just give us Z or X2Y2 in 2015 or 2016 and save Gen 7 for 2017.

 

[SerenaToAlola]

imo, the trials should be made as mini games that you can play over and over again.

 

[Niyuura]

The thing that really annoys me about this is they are basically confirming then that sun/moon were unfinished or rushed games sod anyone who bought them (I bought both)

If Ultra Sun Ultra Moon are how the games should have been etc why not just give us Z or X2Y2 in 2015 or 2016 and save Gen 7 for 2017.

Well, yeah, you're right and they did basically confirm SM were unfinished, not directly, but all the interviews and stuff pretty much gives you that idea. It is a huge slap in the face to those who bought both games (and even bought one game), but so have Emerald and Platinum been as well, so... I just hope these games are good despite what it entails for SM.

Although, this recent footage of the fire trial site tells us that despite the map showing the volcano has no smoke coming out of it anymore, it is still identical to the one in SM, which gives me pessimistic vibes tbh. For one, it means that any such detail we see on the map might not mean anything but map aesthetics, so can't really look forward to changes based on small map differences. And further, it might mean the volcano is still a skipped dungeon, which sucks.

 

[Boss1708]

imo, the trials should be made as mini games that you can play over and over again.

This so much.

 

[Mitchman]

Jeez guys I was joking with the no trials thing. If anything, I think this confirms expanded dungeons before the trials, cause obviously that is still the trial site. Really hoping this means gym like overworld caves within the overworld, where you challenge the captain gain a badge and access the trial totems as a sidequest.

 

[Esserise]

The thing that really annoys me about this is they are basically confirming then that sun/moon were unfinished or rushed games sod anyone who bought them (I bought both)

Well, yeah, you're right and they did basically confirm SM were unfinished, not directly, but all the interviews and stuff pretty much gives you that idea. It is a huge slap in the face to those who bought both games (and even bought one game), but so have Emerald and Platinum been as well, so... I just hope these games are good despite what it entails for SM.

If it's a "slap in the face," it's one you asked for personally by purchasing SM instead of waiting to see what they'd come out with afterward.

I guess if you really hated SM then I could understand regretting the purchase (naturally, because that's what happens when you buy anything that doesn't live up to what you'd hoped or perform the function it was advertised as doing), but this fandom has some really weird tendencies about seeing games that revisit the new region and acting as though they get suckered in to spending their money. No. Game Freak never said they weren't going to do more with Alola or its features (and in the process, improve them), and I don't think it can actually be sensibly said that SM aren't up to the standard of generational first pairs as a self-contained product. Kiawe's trial being slapdash or the stupid golf course being closed down is no more an insult to buyers than GS not adding an interior to the hut in the Dragon's Den so you just have to retrieve an item and closing off Cinnabar and the Seafoam Islands is.

If Ultra Sun Ultra Moon are how the games should have been etc why not just give us Z or X2Y2 in 2015 or 2016 and save Gen 7 for 2017.

My word, these are some gaping fallacies.

USUM are not "how the games should have been." Virtually every video game production - no, virtually every production, period hits stumbling blocks during the development process, and has things that don't work out for whatever reason. Trying to assert that the product made isn't nevertheless capable of standing up on its own merits just because it doesn't live up to some hypothetical best-case scenario version where absolutely nothing went wrong is ridiculous, because that isn't how reality works.

Secondly, how does your proposal actually make anything better? Z is still going to require staff to work on it. SM's issue as stated in that interview is that they lacked the ideal amount of staff (and note that we don't know all the reasons why that was the case). All you've done here is delay the problem rather than cure it, and all for the sake of the most rote and perfunctory Pokémon game concept ever, with nothing to show in 2016 when the franchise's hype levels were at a high unseen since 2000.

The reasons why they chose the schedule they did are pretty blindingly obvious. XY were obligatory, and they'd probably decided that there was also going to be a new generation to coincide with the 20th anniversary (because of course there would be). That locks SM into 2016 and gives them enough time to squeeze in one game between the two, which they logically determined would be ORAS, because the Internet was begging for Hoenn remakes. Whereas Z, while probably not beneath them as an option, simply doesn't offer much that either XY already didn't or can't be shifted to ORAS and SM.

 

[StandbyForBattle]

It always happen when it comes to a new generation, like DP, BW, XY, and SM, it always felt unfinished, and they improved with a upgraded version (except for XY, maybe they'll finish the XY story in USUM), I'm betting that Gen VIII will be that case.

 

[Defiant]

If it's a "slap in the face," it's one you asked for personally by purchasing SM instead of waiting to see what they'd come out with afterward.

I guess if you really hated SM then I could understand regretting the purchase (naturally, because that's what happens when you buy anything that doesn't live up to what you'd hoped or perform the function it was advertised as doing), but this fandom has some really weird tendencies about seeing games that revisit the new region and acting as though they get suckered in to spending their money. No. Game Freak never said they weren't going to do more with Alola or its features (and in the process, improve them), and I don't think it can actually be sensibly said that SM aren't up to the standard of generational first pairs as a self-contained product. Kiawe's trial being slapdash or the stupid golf course being closed down is no more an insult to buyers than GS not adding an interior to the hut in the Dragon's Den so you just have to retrieve an item and closing off Cinnabar and the Seafoam Islands is.



My word, these are some gaping fallacies.

USUM are not "how the games should have been." Virtually every video game production - no, virtually every production, period hits stumbling blocks during the development process, and has things that don't work out for whatever reason. Trying to assert that the product made isn't nevertheless capable of standing up on its own merits just because it doesn't live up to some hypothetical best-case scenario version where absolutely nothing went wrong is ridiculous, because that isn't how reality works.

Secondly, how does your proposal actually make anything better? Z is still going to require staff to work on it. SM's issue as stated in that interview is that they lacked the ideal amount of staff (and note that we don't know all the reasons why that was the case). All you've done here is delay the problem rather than cure it, and all for the sake of the most rote and perfunctory Pokémon game concept ever, with nothing to show in 2016 when the franchise's hype levels were at a high unseen since 2000.

The reasons why they chose the schedule they did are pretty blindingly obvious. XY were obligatory, and they'd probably decided that there was also going to be a new generation to coincide with the 20th anniversary (because of course there would be). That locks SM into 2016 and gives them enough time to squeeze in one game between the two, which they logically determined would be ORAS, because the Internet was begging for Hoenn remakes. Whereas Z, while probably not beneath them as an option, simply doesn't offer much that either XY already didn't or can't be shifted to ORAS and SM.

After B2W2 and ORAS the pattern of doing a 3rd version seemed well and truly debunked, after all Platinum was 8 years ago. So no I don't think people who bought SM were "asking for it"

If you don't have enough staff giving your staff more time is an obvious way around that problem so no you are not just delaying the problem.

The 20th anniversary was Feb 2016 Sun/Moon were actually closer to the 21st anniversary than the 20th and didn't feel like anniversary games to me at all. So that theory doesn't hold much water.

They could have done a decent sequel in X2Y2 which wouldn't have taken too much in the way of staff and had their main focus on getting SM/USUM out in 2017

Same number of games but more time to develop Gen 7 and sequels which are more satisfying than the outdated 3rd version formula.

Also splitting the 3rd version into 2 3rd versions is also another unnecessary slap in the face if you ask me.

 

[Mitchman]

It always happen when it comes to a new generation, like DP, BW, XY, and SM, it always felt unfinished, and they improved with a upgraded version (except for XY, maybe they'll finish the XY story in USUM), I'm betting that Gen VIII will be that case.

Not to mention when in hindsight, A tropical region new generation helmed by Ohmori made a lot of sense. I always said it during ORAS' reveal period, introducing a new artstyle mid generation for the remakes region map felt really off, and a shift in focus for GF. Basically, with the Strange Souvenir and the arstyle, it was obvious they were done with Kalos and whatever was coming next would be done by Ohmori.
As for SM feeling unfinished, I think its somewhere between an objective and subjective view. We know that their conception and production was relatively late into SMs development cycle, so if the world had missing bits or felt too simplified it could be down to that. HOWEVER it also depends on what Ohmori truly intended to do with the trials and how he wanted to portray Alola, so retrospectively critisizing SM can only really be done after USUM releases, and if they go where they intended to in the first place or if they offer the same somewhat hollow experience.

 

[Esserise]

After B2W2 and ORAS the pattern of doing a 3rd version seemed well and truly debunked, after all Platinum was 8 years ago. So no I don't think people who bought SM were "asking for it"

There is no time limit on purchasing SM, though. There was nothing stopping someone from waiting in order to see if Game Freak would revisit the region, if that person is the kind of person who is likely to retcon their opinion of their initial purchase as soon as they learn there's going to be a director's cut.

The first step to knowing what to buy for yourself is knowing yourself.

Besides that, B2W2 not being a full-rehash like Platinum doesn't change the fact that they're still a second Unova game with a refined system and a boatload of new features. If you were forced to choose between the two, there'd be a strong argument in favor of chosing B2W2 simply because they offer so much more content, and run a bit smoother. B2W2 are functionally the same thing as a third version, just framed in a more sensible way. And strictly speaking, we don't know to what extent USUM will differ from SM. They can hypothetically diverge from the SM experience to a B2W2-degree without necessarily being full-on chronological sequels. It doesn't have to be a DP-Platinum relationship if they're creative about it.

So in more relevant terms, they have gone only one generation without revisiting the new region, and for entirely discernible reasons - at the time, Hoenn remakes were in demand, and the anniversary was on the horizon, and Z would have been a shitty way to celebrate the anniversary.

If you don't have enough staff giving your staff more time is an obvious way around that problem so no you are not just delaying the problem.

But you haven't actually given them that much more time. They still only have one year in which they're not also working on another project, and the people involved are going to get a little burned out after working on so many successive projects. But even if that does help, it's a rather myopic definition of "help," because in the long run, you've just missed valuable opportunities and created more long-term problems. You have both fundamentally mishandled the anniversary year in favor of an achingly lazy placeholder game and given them less time to figure out a timely approach to the Switch and the development of that generation. And all for what? A golf course dungeon and Kiawe's trial being slightly more rigorous than the perfectly functional thing it already is? And all for the purpose of saving you $40? Which you didn't even do because you presumably bought Z as well which made XY just as much a "slap in the face" as USUM are supposedly making SM? Seriously, what???

(And as if this rabbit hole couldn't go any deeper - you say that you bought both Sun and Moon, so I find your objection to a revisit rather curious considering that you were perfectly fine with almost literally buying the same game twice already, in full knowledge that Sun and Moon are carbon copies of each other. Speaking as somebody who ritualistically buys both versions every time myself, I still acknowledge that it is such a blatantly and self-evidently irresponsible fiscal decision that it could only be made by the truly devout, who have committed to the act of purchasing every game that's going to come out regardless of what that game even is in practice. So I understand that, but you could have reasonably bought only one version, and then purchasing either US or UM becomes no longer an extra expense but rather an equal one in terms of hard numbers, except that you also get more bang for your buck because USUM are almost certain to have more differences from SM than Sun and Moon do from each other. And it's not as if Game Freak expects you to buy both games, either, because the point of paired versions is to encourage interaction with people who have the other game. A consumer making a purchase may be Game Freak's endgame, but the decision to buy both is entirely on the person with the cash.)

The 20th anniversary was Feb 2016 Sun/Moon were actually closer to the 21st anniversary than the 20th

This is some master-class pedantry.

and didn't feel like anniversary games to me at all

How much they "feel" like an anniversary game isn't reliably quantifiable, and therefore largely irrelevant. The fact is, they are the games that were released in the year of the 20th anniversary and frequently reference that fact internally, and a new generation offers a profoundly larger amount of new material to market than a third version or, as you're suggesting, flat-out nothing. That is an awful, awful way to go about the main series games in year of 2016, which saw a massive marketing campaign across pretty much all fronts of the franchise due to the anniversary. Trying to do that without something big and marketable for the franchise's core element is just a straightforwardly bad idea if the option to do something with the main games exists.

Also splitting the 3rd version into 2 3rd versions is also another unnecessary slap in the face if you ask me.

And if you ask me, it is functionally not all that different from B2W2 being dual versions, which was fine.

 

[PurplePopplio]

So, how about them Trials?

 

[Dieter]

So, how about them Trials?

Definitely something with flowers and painting

Actually. A minigame of "paint the thing I show you" for Mina's Trial would be cool

 

[PurplePopplio]

Definitely something with flowers and painting

Actually. A minigame of "paint the thing I show you" for Mina's Trial would be cool

Get ready for Passparout: Pokémon Edition.

 

[Esserise]

Actually. A minigame of "paint the thing I show you" for Mina's Trial would be cool

Well they did integrate Pokémon Snap into the previous games.

I suppose Pokémon Art Academy wouldn't be a huge stretch.

I know I'd like something to replace the final Dragon trial. Not that I think it didn't work just fine in SM, but it was rather basic, and the whole odd Captainless "natural trial" thing is something that can probably only be interesting once.

Actually, I wonder if it'll play out in the "right" order this time. In SM, we took on the final Grand Trial before we even met Mina or Kommo-o. Maybe this time we go to the Altar before we battle the fourth Kahuna. Kind of like how B2W2 reverted to the traditional structure after BW went all "no Champion battle, Team Plasma instead."

 

[SerenaToAlola]

Well they did integrate Pokémon Snap into the previous games.

I suppose Pokémon Art Academy wouldn't be a huge stretch.

What is Pokemon Snap and Pokemon Art Academy? I'm thinking a colouring game with Mina would be pretty fun lol.

 

[Esserise]

What is Pokemon Snap and Pokemon Art Academy?

Spoiler: Snap

^ game where you take Pokémon pics

Spoiler: Art Academy

^ game where you draw Pokémon pics

 

[SerenaToAlola]

Oh thanks they are actual games! Would be cute if they were to incorporate elements of it into USUM as trials. I don't think that's likely though.

 

[Defiant]

There is no time limit on purchasing SM, though. There was nothing stopping someone from waiting in order to see if Game Freak would revisit the region, if that person is the kind of person who is likely to retcon their opinion of their initial purchase as soon as they learn there's going to be a director's cut.

The first step to knowing what to buy for yourself is knowing yourself.

Besides that, B2W2 not being a full-rehash like Platinum doesn't change the fact that they're still a second Unova game with a refined system and a boatload of new features. If you were forced to choose between the two, there'd be a strong argument in favor of chosing B2W2 simply because they offer so much more content, and run a bit smoother. B2W2 are functionally the same thing as a third version, just framed in a more sensible way. And strictly speaking, we don't know to what extent USUM will differ from SM. They can hypothetically diverge from the SM experience to a B2W2-degree without necessarily being full-on chronological sequels. It doesn't have to be a DP-Platinum relationship if they're creative about it.

So in more relevant terms, they have gone only one generation without revisiting the new region, and for entirely discernible reasons - at the time, Hoenn remakes were in demand, and the anniversary was on the horizon, and Z would have been a shitty way to celebrate the anniversary.



But you haven't actually given them that much more time. They still only have one year in which they're not also working on another project, and the people involved are going to get a little burned out after working on so many successive projects. But even if that does help, it's a rather myopic definition of "help," because in the long run, you've just missed valuable opportunities and created more long-term problems. You have both fundamentally mishandled the anniversary year in favor of an achingly lazy placeholder game and given them less time to figure out a timely approach to the Switch and the development of that generation. And all for what? A golf course dungeon and Kiawe's trial being slightly more rigorous than the perfectly functional thing it already is? And all for the purpose of saving you $40? Which you didn't even do because you presumably bought Z as well which made XY just as much a "slap in the face" as USUM are supposedly making SM? Seriously, what???

(And as if this rabbit hole couldn't go any deeper - you say that you bought both Sun and Moon, so I find your objection to a revisit rather curious considering that you were perfectly fine with almost literally buying the same game twice already, in full knowledge that Sun and Moon are carbon copies of each other. Speaking as somebody who ritualistically buys both versions every time myself, I still acknowledge that it is such a blatantly and self-evidently irresponsible fiscal decision that it could only be made by the truly devout, who have committed to the act of purchasing every game that's going to come out regardless of what that game even is in practice. So I understand that, but you could have reasonably bought only one version, and then purchasing either US or UM becomes no longer an extra expense but rather an equal one in terms of hard numbers, except that you also get more bang for your buck because USUM are almost certain to have more differences from SM than Sun and Moon do from each other. And it's not as if Game Freak expects you to buy both games, either, because the point of paired versions is to encourage interaction with people who have the other game. A consumer making a purchase may be Game Freak's endgame, but the decision to buy both is entirely on the person with the cash.)



This is some master-class pedantry.



How much they "feel" like an anniversary game isn't reliably quantifiable, and therefore largely irrelevant. The fact is, they are the games that were released in the year of the 20th anniversary and frequently reference that fact internally, and a new generation offers a profoundly larger amount of new material to market than a third version or, as you're suggesting, flat-out nothing. That is an awful, awful way to go about the main series games in year of 2016, which saw a massive marketing campaign across pretty much all fronts of the franchise due to the anniversary. Trying to do that without something big and marketable for the franchise's core element is just a straightforwardly bad idea if the option to do something with the main games exists.



And if you ask me, it is functionally not all that different from B2W2 being dual versions, which was fine.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ans Sequels are not the same thing as a 3rd version by any stretch of the imagination.

Saying well you should have waited is a rather crass statement. While Game Freak do need to make money I don't expect them to play mind games and tricks to try and deliberately deceive.

Look to another Nintendo franchise Zelda, they take a while to release games too long in my opinion but they don't follow up a couple of months later with the same thing rehashed.

Usum looks so far to literally be the worst of both worlds, the extra expense of 2 games but without the extra story of a sequel.

And no I don't find the fact I'm willing to spend £80 on something but not £160 that curious at all. You're right when we bought SM we were aware Sun and Moon were identical, what we weren't aware of and what Game Freak had actively tried to convince us wouldn't happen anymore was they would release an unfinished product and then released the finished version a year later.

Finally i don't think pointing out there was 9 months between the anniversary and Sun/Moon pedantic at all. On the contrary saying well it was still technically in 2016 which is the same year, to be pedantic as well as trying to say B2W2 are 3rd versions simply for revisiting unova.

Are you saying that Lord of the rings return of the king is the same film just a rehash of fellowship of the ring after all it's set in middle earth? Is Harry Potter and the half blood prince a rehash of chamber of secrets after all both are set in Hogwarts? No of course not. Revisiting a region in a sequel is nothing like having a rehashed 3rd version

 

[Mitchman]

While I always loathed people calling B2W2 third versions under the guise a sequel, I have to agree that it still fell under the 20th Anniversary celebrations as it was announced on the same day and all, not to mention most Nintendo anniversaries are celebrated year round. As for thw unfinished product spiel, only timebthat MIGHT happen is with SM, as DP and RS were quite complete games, just heavily unpolished. Major difference. SM has the polish but bot the content. There I agree, its gonna look reeeeeaaaaaal bad if GF doesn't change a whole lot.

 

[Alolan Coconut]

Oh thanks they are actual games! Would be cute if they were to incorporate elements of it into USUM as trials. I don't think that's likely though.

The Ghost Trial in SM was an incorporated version of Snap, so it's definitely possible.