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Mafia: TWR Games Bonanza - Endgame: Mafia win - Epilogue Complete

Brutally Honest
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Vote: Pikochu

Forgot to add my vote, I'd prefer Darth tbh but may as well jump on the wagon
 
I Stand Out
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Vote: Pikochu

Piko bad. Everyone's said it and said why by this point so I'd just be parroting if I harped on about that too long. Though I will say that I don't really see a jokey tone to his "Yo, vig Contrainer" comment.

What's a somewhat better thing I could talk about is Pika. This is some hardcore defence of Piko going on right here, and, imo, I can't see Scum!Pika doing it, especially not this far into things. I feel like, if Piko was scum, Pika wouldn't go this hard to avoid being implicated as his bud, and if Piko was town, well, why not just take the lynch? He started the defence back when it was still very feasible to get the wagon to move.
Scum!Pika just doesn't feel likely imo.
 
attempts to comfort the owl.
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Holy fuck, I did not expect a wagon to form on me. I swear, scum must be taking advantage of what I said and twist what I said.

For the record, I still more or less standby what I said about the bomb. Yes, it was poor judgment to say that vig should do that. That being said, the fact that the bomb claim is just near impossible to test without serious consequences just annoyed me. In hindsight, and I shouldn't have suggested that publicly this early in the game but I said it. Personally, I don't care if it makes me look scummy, I'm more or less standing by my comments that vig should kill Contrainer, or at least have someone investigate for sure Contrainer is what the claim is.

As to my read being fake, why in the world would I post a reads list if there isn't quite a reason too. It draws more attention and subjects myself to ridicule. Posting a reads list forces me to take a stance and while it's a disagreement, the fact about the stances I take, at least it's something to work off of and perhaps to get the conversation going. At the time, the conversation wasn't really going anywhere.

Anyways, take that for what you will. At least I'm not being complacent of what's happening and at least have something new to analyze.

Responses to some of the things

his and like one other post saying he thought Max's jester thing was a joke is all Officer Snake has done, which isn't really much either. It doesn't even give much of a solid stance on Max, since it's not saying his claim is legit, but it's not saying that it isn't (or, I guess, wasn't) either. And yet he didn't comment on anything or anyone else. Also, he kept his joke vote on me the entire phase, even when it was supposedly a joke vote at the beginning, which doesn't exactly give me town vibes on him either
I notice that you haven't said much about the other players who have more to say. All you're really doing is pointing out who are your scumreads as if you're trying to backtrack. Why not state some of your town reads too and why?

There is some serious Piko defending going on here. Feels like Pika and Piko are buddies....so basically pikachu is scum.....

Life is a lie.

Seriously though I think we might have two scum here.
Quoting this for posterity in case you're gonna ISO me when I'm dead.

Not only is the Vigging the Bomb suggestion a little sketchy since there’s possible Mafia motivation behind it, but it’s pretty much ofca stretch from him to suggest that Zinn meant to coax out the Bomb claim in the first place with his joking remark. Especially since he starts his so-called analysis of Zinn by saying he rubs off as Town, but concludes that he’s a slight scum read. I don’t really buy it.
The reason why I thought Zinn is slightly scum because something was off. Zinn was joking about the bomb thing which sadly became a point of contention. I mean the fact that we are having this conversation if this was a joke is quite concerning and feel as it was meant to be a distraction.

I mean if so that makes me basically confirmed then. Or I'm just that good at curveballs
Well, which is it? You're the one that knows for sure and you're just giving ambigious answer that can be construed either way.

Piko was town, well, why not just take the lynch? He started the defence back when it was still very feasible to get the wagon to move.
WTF Are you serious?

Why the hell would I take the lynch if I was town? That statement is just as scummy as "Vig should target Contrainer to test bomb" man. Now that you're here, you got anything else to say?
 
I Stand Out
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Posting a reads list forces me to take a stance
You kinda didn't though. Half your reads were nulls.

The reason why I thought Zinn is slightly scum because something was off. Zinn was joking about the bomb thing which sadly became a point of contention. I mean the fact that we are having this conversation if this was a joke is quite concerning and feel as it was meant to be a distraction.
Zinn didn't start it though. Contrainer did with his not-claim waaaaaaay back here
I'm not going to claim, but do not vig me.

Unvote
Zinn may have prompted the full claim by joking about Max being a bomb, but Contrainer made the type of role he was very obvious beforehand.

WTF Are you serious?

Why the hell would I take the lynch if I was town? That statement is just as scummy as "Vig should target Contrainer to test bomb" man.
I meant as in: If Piko was Town, why would Pika go to the trouble of defending you, and not simply take the lynch and get rid of a townie with no resistance?
I apologise if it was done poorly.
 
Bored and Boring
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While Pikochu's commentary was unnecessary and reckless, I do agree that we should try to find a way test Contrainer's claim.
Not by viggin' him, because that could be a -2 to Town, but I feel like that was an impulsive commentary that backfired him more than it should, but that sane scum would never make, especially a veteran.

I really hate how we're all treating him as some kind of untouchable 100% trustable claim, since it could be a poor attempt to hide a Town Power Role or a Godfather, and if it is then shit might happen later and noone seems to care. The kid is thinking he can just lay back and not contribute at all because of you guys not questioning his claim and assuming he just screwed up. His claim caused a giant WIFOM that annoys just Town and y'all shoving it to the late game, creating wagons based on something we don't even know if we can trust.

If he's the Godfather, he's not going to get lynched, he will appear as town and as immobile (assuming vanilla godfather that's perfect for them) to investigative roles, and Town will avoid to directly kill him. How the fuck are we supposed to stop something like that?

And what if he's a Town Power Role? what if he's, like, the Doctor, or the Cop, and we keep trying to redirect a kill into him thinking we found a use for him? We should have protective and investigative roles to guarantee his safety if he's a Town Power Role, not ignore and attempt to cause scum to kill him.

The whole wagon is happening because he suspected Contrainer's not to be true, and I do feel his worries are justified. As I said before, and got me ignored, it's stupid to believe a Bomb would be afraid of another Bomb, I'm so fucking sure Contrainer is lying and I feel like we're about to cause many mislynches because of something unverifiable like that. Pikochu's commentary was some faulty logic, but I feel like the fact the wagon grew this quickly suggests that this is what scum wants, to shift attention and kill everyone who questions Contrainer's claim because they already know whether he's lying or not and want to keep us in WIFOM until a better moment.
 
Sith Puppy
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tbh I think Piko and Darth are Mafia :v

Also I'm gonna go ahead and claim the game I submitted. Black Butler Mafia, of which Elizabeth Midford from that game who was a Bomb could very well be Contrainer. The way the role worked in my game was that it'd only trigger on a night attack. So day lynching would be safe, but at the same time there's little reason to do so if it fits. Did anyone else submit a game that had a bomb in it?
We've seen that Eevee can adjust roles so that isn't reliable sadly.
Vote: Pikochu

Forgot to add my vote, I'd prefer Darth tbh but may as well jump on the wagon
Wait what?
Ok first, if you'd prefer me then vote me and don't sheep. Second, why me?
How the fuck are we supposed to stop something like that?
We vote him at a later point, not to worry about right now. He's not the only scum.

Ok so this piko wagon is bullshit and definitely has scum influencing it. I'll have to look back to see what stands out most. I'll be back but I'm definitely on piko's side here.
 
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You kinda didn't though. Half your reads were nulls.
And you're telling me that null is not taking a stance? Plus, most of my null reads come from the fact that the players contributed pretty much nothing at that point.

Zinn may have prompted the full claim by joking about Max being a bomb, but Contrainer made the type of role he was very obvious beforehand.
How can the "do not vig me" imply that he is for certain a bomb without Zinn's claim? For all we know, it could be a town power role or Mafia set up to hide behind from.

I meant as in: If Piko was Town, why would Pika go to the trouble of defending you, and not simply take the lynch and get rid of a townie with no resistance?
Does not compute.
 
♡ mk. vier ♡
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Also I'm gonna go ahead and claim the game I submitted. Black Butler Mafia, of which Elizabeth Midford from that game who was a Bomb could very well be Contrainer. The way the role worked in my game was that it'd only trigger on a night attack. So day lynching would be safe, but at the same time there's little reason to do so if it fits. Did anyone else submit a game that had a bomb in it?
My game was Gundam SEED Mafia, and it also had a bomb that activated at night only (Athrun Zala was the role).
I notice that you haven't said much about the other players who have more to say. All you're really doing is pointing out who are your scumreads as if you're trying to backtrack. Why not state some of your town reads too and why?
Pointing out scumreads seems more productive (usually) than townreads when we've got to figure out who to lynch. How is that backtracking? Or rather, what am I backtracking? I also don't understand what this has to do with the Officer Snake topic that you quoted me on. I already said at least twice that ZinnLav is feeling very town to me, and in D1 I said that Midorikawa's un-CC'd miller claim is seemingly solid. Others I townread are ExLight (who I don't always agree with in regards to some stuff like Contrainer, but their posts seem to legitimately be wanting to help town figure things out) and leaning town on Lone_Garurumon (though this is a cautious town-lean because I watched Ocarina of Time Mafia to a degree and would've thought he was town there). Contrainer I still get the feeling is likely just misplaying as town too.
The whole wagon is happening because he suspected Contrainer's not to be true, and I do feel his worries are justified. As I said before, and got me ignored, it's stupid to believe a Bomb would be afraid of another Bomb, I'm so fucking sure Contrainer is lying and I feel like we're about to cause many mislynches because of something unverifiable like that. Pikochu's commentary was some faulty logic, but I feel like the fact the wagon grew this quickly suggests that this is what scum wants, to shift attention and kill everyone who questions Contrainer's claim because they already know whether he's lying or not and want to keep us in WIFOM until a better moment.
To be fair, my vote on Pikochu wasn't really related to the Contrainer vig thing so much as the way he seemed to give off an illusion of being more of a townleader than he is and has been when I feel like much of his content to that point has either seemed distracted or paraphrasing other people. But regardless, I just don't see Contrainer being the type as scum to make that claim (especially that early). When the options for Contrainer are either power role, actually bomb, or lying scum, 2/3 is risky enough to check that I frankly don't know what to do about him and am just kind of ignoring him for now, especially when I honestly could see him telling the truth but making some very silly plays along the way. He was town in Hydra Mafia that I was in and did some very odd moves as town, and it got him and his partner killed. This reminds me of that.
And you're telling me that null is not taking a stance? Plus, most of my null reads come from the fact that the players contributed pretty much nothing at that point.
I'm pretty sure most people interpret null as not taking a stance because it's literally not siding with scum or town when discussing someone. It's just... nothing. It's that you made a reads list that had a large portion of "who?"/null reads that makes it stand out.

DarthWolf DarthWolf
You mentioned before about Calvin and jd not voting despite having suspicions not looking good, but you currently don't have a vote on the table despite this phase ending fairly soon (I think). You said the Piko wagon is BS, but who do you think is a better lynch today?
 
I Stand Out
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And you're telling me that null is not taking a stance?
Yes. That is literally what null is. Null is "I can't form a stance on this person, will have to come back later or something."
Does not compute.
Ok, think about it like this. You are a Scum member, and you see a Townie on the chopping block. Do you:
A) Play along and take the easy lynch to advance your own gamestate, or:
B) Stick your neck out for the Townie, putting yourself in the spotlight and potentially dragging votes towards you as you defend such a scummy looking player?
I'm sure that most scum will choose option A. This is largely my basis for the Town read on Pika.
How can the "do not vig me" imply that he is for certain a bomb without Zinn's claim? For all we know, it could be a town power role or Mafia set up to hide behind from.
"For all we know" is WIFOM and a useless argument. If we let every single possibility fill up the radar we'll never get anything done because every point is countered by "but what if this instead?"
The most likely reason for a player to instantly scream not to lynch them is that they have a role that makes lynching them bad. Future evidence can recontextualise such a statement, yes, but until such a time, I'm going to run with the most likely possibility.
 
Day 2.5 Votals
Vee Vee Eeeeveee!
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♡ mk. vier ♡
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despite this phase ending fairly soon (I think).
Phase ends in 24 hours (+3 minutes).
wow, me no understand time

In all seriousness though, to everyone who is saying that Pikochu doesn't seem suspicious, providing alternative cases would be nice. There's literally not a single vote on anyone else.
 
Bored and Boring
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wow, me no understand time

In all seriousness though, to everyone who is saying that Pikochu doesn't seem suspicious, providing alternative cases would be nice. There's literally not a single vote on anyone else.
I'm fine with persuing some of Piko's main attackers to see how they react.

Lone used quite a few logical fallacies when building a case against Piko, and I feel like they need to be addressed later. Midorikawa is taking her usual hostile approach, but she seems to be trying to strech things in an attempt to solve stuff a little too early.

I want to hear Contrainer, Zinn, and Mega more too because they're usually more active than that, and I feel like they're just sheeping.

Alternatively, I find Pika's defense a little weird, gut feeling, but maybe poke that a little.
 
I Stand Out
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Lone used quite a few logical fallacies when building a case against Piko, and I feel like they need to be addressed later.
So, I'm about to go to bed, but I'm actually legitimately curious to have these fallacies pointed out to me.
That said, you know, bed, but I'll probably see it eventually.
 
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So, I'm about to go to bed, but I'm actually legitimately curious to have these fallacies pointed out to me.
That said, you know, bed, but I'll probably see it eventually.
Null reads don't mean a lack of opinion; Scum defending a Town lynch is ridiculously common when tryin to get some credibility; and Townies usually don't sit around in silence when they're about to get mislynched.

The fact you used the opposite of these to kind of create some distorted guideline in an attempt to push a lynch against Piko further bothers me quite a bit.
 
♡ mk. vier ♡
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I want to hear Contrainer, Zinn, and Mega more too because they're usually more active than that, and I feel like they're just sheeping.
Yeah, I agree with wanting to hear more from this group. Contrainer being a little out of the spotlight right now isn't a good reason for him to not be contributing and straight-up sheep voting without even providing reasoning (along with the FoS on Midori), and MegaPod I remember nothing from other than his vote posts on these two phases. I feel Zinn's had more presence, though. However, on that note

ZinnLav ZinnLav
You mentioned preferring a lynch on DarthWolf when you voted Pikochu. Why do you think he's the most scummy?
@FinalArcadia i didn’t vote Max because he didn’t need more votes on him. And I’m always skeptical of large D1 wagons since scum can easily jump on it without much suspicion.

Now though, I like the Pikochu case. Asking for a vig on a bomb claim is totally scummy, though it is a bit on the nose, maybe.

Vote: Pikochu
Had to go back to find this, but I believe your vote is number 5 on the Pikochu wagon, over a third of the game. You posted about not wanting to join the Max one despite finding him anti-town when he had about 6 votes. I get that it's not D1 anymore, but it's the timing of the vote in that you're doing this vote while responding to my post about "why didn't you vote despite finding Max suspicious" that makes me a little paranoid that this is to avoid drawing attention to a lack of voting again, partly because you haven't provided any thoughts on players other than the majority wagons of each phase so far and the Piko vote is a little sheepy IMO (and maybe even a little wishy-washy on that last part?).

Also, @Officer Snake , I know you said you were busy during D1, but we have absolutely no thoughts from you on any players other than Max, who is dead now. What do you think of the Pikochu wagon? Do you think somebody else would be a better chance of hitting scum?
 
Sith Puppy
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How can the "do not vig me" imply that he is for certain a bomb without Zinn's claim? For all we know, it could be a town power role or Mafia set up to hide behind from.
I think I'm not the only one that at least considered bomb when Contrainer said that.
@DarthWolf
You mentioned before about Calvin and jd not voting despite having suspicions not looking good, but you currently don't have a vote on the table despite this phase ending fairly soon (I think). You said the Piko wagon is BS, but who do you think is a better lynch today?
I did, and as I said in my last post I want to look back upon this wagon to see what sticks out. Haven't had the time to do that yet. But I will do later this evening, if not next morning depending on when I'm done with some other work.
 
Ash's Pikachu
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I wouldn't call it a joke but I certainly agree with you here in some aspect. It seems very emotion driven and not the most serious of comments.
Yes this is exactly what I wanted to say. That doesn't look like an actual suggestion, more like a statement made in frustration.

tbh I think Piko and Darth are Mafia :v
Why?

What's a somewhat better thing I could talk about is Pika. This is some hardcore defence of Piko going on right here, and, imo, I can't see Scum!Pika doing it, especially not this far into things. I feel like, if Piko was scum, Pika wouldn't go this hard to avoid being implicated as his bud, and if Piko was town, well, why not just take the lynch? He started the defence back when it was still very feasible to get the wagon to move.
Scum!Pika just doesn't feel likely imo.
Yes because I don't really get the case on Pikochu and was just explaining my view, plus the fact that so many people jumped on it makes me think that Pikochu is indeed Town.

I'm more or less standing by my comments that vig should kill Contrainer, or at least have someone investigate for sure Contrainer is what the claim is.
You realise that in that case, we could lose two townies if Contrainer is indeed Bomb, right? Or do you think Contrainer's bomb claim is definitely fake?

I really hate how we're all treating him as some kind of untouchable 100% trustable claim, since it could be a poor attempt to hide a Town Power Role or a Godfather, and if it is then shit might happen later and noone seems to care. The kid is thinking he can just lay back and not contribute at all because of you guys not questioning his claim and assuming he just screwed up. His claim caused a giant WIFOM that annoys just Town and y'all shoving it to the late game, creating wagons based on something we don't even know if we can trust.
This. I said this earlier, but I'm not sure of Contrainer's claim, he made it in such an abrupt manner and he was also scared of voting Max as he thought he could be bomb, when in fact, he himself was claiming to be Bomb. And after that claim, he's basically not contributing anything. He's coming and sheeping with votes but provides no actual thoughts. But like FA pointed out earlier, Contrainer is a comparatively new player and is prone to such mistakes, I'll give him a pass for now but I really want him to contribute more and share his thoughts.

Pikochu : Midorikawa, FinalArcadia, Megapod, Contrainer, jdthebud, ZinnLav, Lone_Garurumon
So many people voted Pikochu and most are just sheeping. I'm sure there's at least 1 or 2 scum in this group.

Looking at the wagon and his overall posts, I find MegaPod to be the most suspicious.
Till now, he has only 9 posts, out of which only 2, which are related to his votes are somewhat serious. The others are either just jokes or discussing game mechanics. Even out of those 2, both the posts and the votes thereon feel very sheepy and not providing any original thoughts.
He has also not contributed much nor has been an active part of discussions overall. Generally (and I'm using meta here), MegaPod is a very active player who always tries to generate discussion and tries to actively participate, but in this game he looks like he's taking a back-seat, which makes me feel suspicious about him.
For these reasons, I shall Vote: MegaPod
 
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Also I'm gonna go ahead and claim the game I submitted. Black Butler Mafia, of which Elizabeth Midford from that game who was a Bomb could very well be Contrainer. The way the role worked in my game was that it'd only trigger on a night attack. So day lynching would be safe, but at the same time there's little reason to do so if it fits. Did anyone else submit a game that had a bomb in it?
Didn't notice this the first time around. The game I submitted was from Periodic Table Mafia which contained a bomb. See: Mafia: - Periodic Table Mafia ~ Endgame But essentially my variation was that if the bomb was lynched, two players at random in that wagon would be killed. If at killed at night, all players that visited the bomb will be killed along with the bomb.

How is that backtracking? Or rather, what am I backtracking?
I wanted to point out the inventive "since it's not saying his claim is legit, but it's not saying that it isn't (or, I guess, wasn't) either. " but after getting some rest and resetting my mind, I realized that was being applied to Officer Snake.

To be fair, my vote on Pikochu wasn't really related to the Contrainer vig thing so much as the way he seemed to give off an illusion of being more of a townleader
Yeah, except the intention of that post was to at least put a hard stance up on that time.

It's that you made a reads list that had a large portion of "who?"/null reads that makes it stand out.
Then what would have been your reads at the time then? Most of the other players were inactive mode up until then.

Yes. That is literally what null is. Null is "I can't form a stance on this person, will have to come back later or something."
What? I mean what? "Will have to come back later or something?" Especially when there were that many players without much content. And guess what, most of the players still haven't produced much content to go off of!

"For all we know" is WIFOM and a useless argument. If we let every single possibility fill up the radar we'll never get anything done because every point is countered by "but what if this instead?"
And yet, it was Contrainer that brought up the actual wine. Everyone else made the assumption and said that Contrainer is bomb as if it was legit. I was wondering if vig is willing to test it as if it's very scummy.
 
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