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Mafia: TWR Games Bonanza - Endgame: Mafia win - Epilogue Complete

attempts to comfort the owl.
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I just finished a tutoring session. Will post my thoughts when I'm done finishing up the last things
 
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Ok, I'm finally back. Got a lot to get to.

What about the rest of the thread? What are your thoughts on pika pika?
Not sure about him, but if Pikochu is lynched and flips town, then Pika is likely town as well. If Pikochu is scum, then he's worth taking a close look at.
I told Calvin the same thing though, there is no reason not to vote someone if you suspect them. You joining the wagon makes it easier for scum, yet it turned big pretty quickly so the only reason to avoid it is if you're scum.
At the time, there were only 4 votes on Max I think. Most of the remaining votes came after he claimed jester. I wasn't sure Max was scum, and since I wasn't sure if I would be able to get back online before the phase ended, I didn't want to put a vote on him that could theoretically be used by scum to mislynch.
Vote: Pikochu

Forgot to add my vote, I'd prefer Darth tbh but may as well jump on the wagon
This is an absolutely terrible reason to join a wagon, especially without giving a reason for your vote. And I would like to know why you want to vote Darth.
Holy fuck, I did not expect a wagon to form on me. I swear, scum must be taking advantage of what I said and twist what I said.
Maybe taking advantage, but there's no twisting going on.
For the record, I still more or less standby what I said about the bomb. Yes, it was poor judgment to say that vig should do that. That being said, the fact that the bomb claim is just near impossible to test without serious consequences just annoyed me. In hindsight, and I shouldn't have suggested that publicly this early in the game but I said it. Personally, I don't care if it makes me look scummy, I'm more or less standing by my comments that vig should kill Contrainer, or at least have someone investigate for sure Contrainer is what the claim is.

As to my read being fake, why in the world would I post a reads list if there isn't quite a reason too. It draws more attention and subjects myself to ridicule. Posting a reads list forces me to take a stance and while it's a disagreement, the fact about the stances I take, at least it's something to work off of and perhaps to get the conversation going. At the time, the conversation wasn't really going anywhere.

Anyways, take that for what you will. At least I'm not being complacent of what's happening and at least have something new to analyze.
I see why you were frustrated, but there are definitely better ways to try and suss him out besides "vig him". As for the reads list, it may have been a way to spark conversation, but it seemed more like CWAC to me. I think it's more useful to just focus on scummy behavior this early on rather than a full reads list.

However I will say that doubling down on your statement about Container, rather than trying to backtrack and change your tune (usual scum reaction to accusations), is a point in your favor.
The reason why I thought Zinn is slightly scum because something was off. Zinn was joking about the bomb thing which sadly became a point of contention. I mean the fact that we are having this conversation if this was a joke is quite concerning and feel as it was meant to be a distraction.
So you thought the bomb joke was maent to distract town? From what?
Ok so this piko wagon is bullshit and definitely has scum influencing it. I'll have to look back to see what stands out most. I'll be back but I'm definitely on piko's side here.
Why do you think scum is/was influencing the Piko wagon? Don't you agree that Piko's comments were bad? It's such a low hanging fruit that I don't know how much influence scum could even have.
Had to go back to find this, but I believe your vote is number 5 on the Pikochu wagon, over a third of the game. You posted about not wanting to join the Max one despite finding him anti-town when he had about 6 votes. I get that it's not D1 anymore, but it's the timing of the vote in that you're doing this vote while responding to my post about "why didn't you vote despite finding Max suspicious" that makes me a little paranoid that this is to avoid drawing attention to a lack of voting again, partly because you haven't provided any thoughts on players other than the majority wagons of each phase so far and the Piko vote is a little sheepy IMO (and maybe even a little wishy-washy on that last part?).
I certainly had confidence at the time of my vote on Pikochu, so I wasn't just joining a wagon, I was voting to lynch scum (in my mind). Plus it was early in the phase, unlike D1 when I chose not to vote Max. My final comment about it being "on the nose" was my brain popping up with :would scum make such an obviously scummy comment?", so I added that, but it wasn't enough to take away from my vote.
Vote: ZinnLav
I have a question for you: Do you think ZinnLav's vanilla CC on D1 was BS? I don't think that scum would try a CC like that on day 1. Yes it's a bit WIFOM but still a question to ask.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of wagons town won’t join just because there is no point. In fact keeping the wagon smaller allows us to actually be able to look at it in case of a mislynch. Though with a large wagon it doesn’t make anyone more or less scummy in case of a mislynch since it’s just too large.
Thank you for posting this, it's a good explanation of why I didn't join the Max wagon on day 1, and also why large wagons in the early game can be detrimental to town.
 
I Stand Out
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f I did I think Piko understood it wrongly as well, because I feel like my interpretation was heavily influenced by how he reacted. Going back to check it I see now that you clarified it for him and I missed it somehow.
Yeah, I'll admit that I probably didn't set that entire paragraph up very well. Just saying Pika and Piko rather than Pika Pika and Pikochu also likely did not help for clarity.

Anyway here's that read list Darth wanted:
  • Midorikawa: The claim is a good sign, but she's also been doing good solving. Town read.
  • Lone_Garurumon: He just wants to Survive. Please let him Survive.
  • MegaPod: Not done a whole huge lot. What he has done has been mostly mechanical discussion and sheeping wagons. Scum lean.
  • ZinnLav: His vanilla claim read as a CC, but like Mido said, it's not exactly a hard claim for mafia to fake. Plus his vote is actively sheeping, and his comments are unhelpful. Scum.
  • Officer Snake: Literally nothing beyond lightly defending Max. I dunno, I guess it's worth a single townie point? Not holding the inactivity against him either way though, finals be an ass.
  • Pika_pika42: Town read, I've explained why, but, basic gist, I can't see scum!Pika going to the effort he has to defend Piko.
  • Contrainer: Bomb claim feels reasonable from him, but he hasn't really contributed much beyond that. Town points for the claim, scum points for the CWAC, so, middling overall I guess?
  • DarthWolf: Putting quite a bit of effort towards solving the game. Town read.
  • jdthebud: Hasn't said a lot, but what he has said is solid. Town lean.
  • FinalArcadia: Same basic opinion as Darth and Mido. All 3 are being actively helpful and solvy.
  • Pikochu: He's got a bad look, we've covered this. Looking back, I will concede that his reactions to the wagon don't exactly feel like one of scum. I still don' like, but he's not looking as bad.
  • ExLight: I like 'im. He's not just taking things at face value and pushing through to try and solve things. Town read.
Unovte
Vote: Zinnlav


Piko is, as I said, at least looking better in his reactions. Zinn has just been generally unhelpful. Pod is another one I wouldn't mind, but Zinn is probably worse imo.
 
Bored and Boring
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Informal vote count and I hope it is right
Pikochu (4): Megapod, Contrainer, jdthebud, ZinnLav
Megapod (2): Pika_pika42, FinalArcadia
ZinnLav (4): Midorikawa, Darthwolf, Lone_Garurumon, ExLight
Not voting: Officer Snake, Pikochu
Pikochu Pikochu, for someone who isn't willing to get lynched quietly I'm kinda surprised you haven't voted already.
What do you think of the two other wagons? Do you have any other suggestions?

I think Zinn is a pretty good option because worst case scenario we at least lynch a Vanilla.
But on the other hand, his role is somewhat easier to verify and stop (if he's a scum power role he will prolly avoid moving, making him useless to them), so it isn't exactly an optimal one since it's one of our few verifiable claims.

I'm not so sure on Megapod, tho, who's the other wagon, I have a very smol town lean towards him despite him not contributing much. I kinda want to hear more original thoughts from him before considering voting him over Zinn.

I'll vote ZinnLav for now, but if someone tries to tie the votes (or if the votes remain tied) I'll move it to the leading wagon since it seems to be the general consensus that a lynch is better to reveal useful info to us than a No Lynch.

Vote: ZinnLav
 
Sith Puppy
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Can mafia not make emotional posts? What makes it a townie post if it’s written by emotion?
Of course they can, but they way piko reacted feels like a tosn about to be mislynched and not scum about to break.
Piko lies and tried to make himself look town leader type when he’s done nothing.
You mean his stating he's one of the few people actually moving this game forward?
Do you think Pikochu could be town then and Pika Pika mafia?
Though Pika could easily be defending to look more townie if Piko flips town. The Pika could still be mafia.
Both quotes are to Lone but you basically answer your own question here. What's up with that?
Ok, first things first, I'm a Survivor
Ok who has a survivor in their game?

AussieEevee AussieEevee are people allowed to claim their role got altered?
I approve
Either the quote was screwed up or I don't remember what this was agreeing on and what I wanted to say. Will comment on this after posting.
Why do you think scum is/was influencing the Piko wagon? Don't you agree that Piko's comments were bad? It's such a low hanging fruit that I don't know how much influence scum could even have.
I wouldn't say they were great indeed but didn't immediately stand out as bad to me, especially this early. What particular parts stand out to you...
Uhoh I just said the words with lone in the game.

The wagon build up pretty quickly with an easy argument to build on. There is certainly scum on this.
I have a question for you: Do you think ZinnLav's vanilla CC on D1 was BS? I don't think that scum would try a CC like that on day 1. Yes it's a bit WIFOM but still a question to ask.
I didn't see it as a CC in the first place. He stated it but just like with Max I believed there was more to it. Now that we know Max had his reasons for it, it only strengthens that idea on zinn. It's a simple claim and would easily benefit a GF. Vanilla claims are always something to be weary of, unless you know the game isn't role heavy.
Just under 4 hours left.
Could we get a vote count?
 
Sith Puppy
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Uhm ExLight ExLight did you just tie the votes?

Also Pikochu Pikochu you've been a top lynch target the whole day, where is your own case on scum?
 
Bored and Boring
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Uhm @ExLight did you just tie the votes?
I'M SORRY

But as I said, I'll remove or move my vote to avoid a tie if it comes down to this
Hopefully someone will untie it before that
 
Sith Puppy
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I'M SORRY

But as I said, I'll remove or move my vote to avoid a tie if it comes down to this
Hopefully someone will untie it before that
No worries, just making sure you're aware since the your post seemed to imply you would adjust if someone ties it
 
Sith Puppy
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Also the vote order isn't correct but that doesn't really matter at the moment, cause I'm pretty sure I voted zinn first
 
Day 2.75 Votals
Vee Vee Eeeeveee!
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@AussieEevee are people allowed to claim their role got altered?
I'll allow it, as long as they do not indicate which game, character or host their role comes from.

Could we get a vote count?
Pikochu : Megapod, Contrainer, jdthebud, ZinnLav,
Megapod: Pika_pika42, FinalArcadia
Zinnlav: Darthwolf, Midorikawa, Lone_Garurumon, Exlight
Not voting: Officer Snake, Pikochu
 
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Alright, sorry for taking longer than expected. I got focused on a task.

Although I think Zinn does look pretty bad for bringing up the bomb claim and not being consistent with Darth, I find MegaPod to be more concerning. The vote on me looks very sheepy and the reasons for voting for are basically Mido and FA reasons but repackaged. And for some reason, I feel that his reads list should be more substantial than what he has then as there wais heavy discussion. Like seriously, I feel that he isn't taking the analysis and contribution of other players into consideration.

Contrainer also has the same issue with the reads list too.

Also, I noticed that jd hasn't said anything much about MegaPod but has said something about Zinn.

Honestly right now, it's a toss up between Zinn and MP, though I would be tempted to push jd later on.
 
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The only response I see from jd about MegaPod and Zinn are the following:

This is an absolutely terrible reason to join a wagon, especially without giving a reason for your vote. And I would like to know why you want to vote Darth.
That's it. I think there might be something going on and/or missing between the interaction with jd. I just don't know what to pin it too.
 
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This is more of a gut vote at the end of the day:

Vote: Zinn
 
♡ mk. vier ♡
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The thing with Zinn is that I just don't get why mafia would claim vanilla the way ZinnLav did on D1. It was after Max's claim, and even if he was really singer, nobody would have known that other than Max himself until phase update. Even ZinnLav seemed to act like a second vanilla in a game like this would be weird, so it seems odd to fake-claim it as scum when - for all they knew - Max could've died and been revealed as vanilla and cast doubt on the supposed vanilla CC. I hope you guys are right and we hit scum because that would be awesome, but the whole claim thing just seems so strange for mafia to me.
 
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What particular parts stand out to you...
Uhoh I just said the words with lone in the game.
I'll allow it, as long as they do not indicate which game, character or host their role comes from.
OH THANK GOD.
You might not find my role. I have no idea what's in games that other people submitted, but my submission definitely didn't have one.
Basically, my role's been altered from the original into Survivor.
 
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I mean in the context that you might not find it as it is now. My role in this game is the most basic of Survivors. I win if I'm alive in endgame, I lose if I don't, nothing beyond that. My role in the original game was not that. I highly doubt I'm allowed to tell you anything about what it used to be. I don't know if a standard Survivor ever existed in any of the games any of you submitted. Basically I was kinda paranoid that you might realise that a Survivor never existed once we mass claim the submitted games (I'm expecting that to happen eventually), and you'd all conclude I was lying and kill me because of that.
 
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:glare:
so many games with survivors and he decided to modify a role completely to fit one in this game?

And another stationary role? If Zinn turns out to be a Vanilla that will be at least 4 (Miller, Vanilla, Survivor, Singer), which is roughly 30% of the players. :thonk:
 
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Mido tries to get more out of jd here but no response so far iirc. The doubtfulness makes me doubt though, is that a scum move trying to back off a bit to play it safe with a nonsenseical comment or is it a town vote who doesn't feel confindent since town doesn't know the answer? I would like to hear thoughts from you guys on this one. Leaving it be for now.
Honestly, I didn't know how to read jd earlier, it was a bit here and there but his latest post in which he answers all the questions and clears all matters addressed to him makes me feel better about him. He actually explained his view about voting Pikochu albeit with some apprehension, I believe this to be true for now.

Also I've seen people claim thinking zinn is town, why is that cause I don't see it.
Mostly because of the claim and the timing of the claim. Although, a Mafia can fake claim to be a Vanilla, it would still be a bold move because Max had already claimed it and was getting some heat for it, no reason for Mafia to jump in with another vanilla claim and drive attention onto themselves.

But I’m not a threat in 1 day. No one is. And with roles that we can’t even guess floating out there, it still comes off as a weird guess. The wording sounds way too sure.
Not sure, it was mostly a guess. Tbh, if I were mafia, I would have gone for you irrespective of the claim.

Why not? Killing a null read would make him look like a mistaken townie. Killing a town looking person is the easy way out and an obvious scum move.
But killing a null read only shortens the pool of suspects and makes the mafia more prone to be lynched whereas killing a town looking person is an obvious scum move because that's the one which really benefits them.

Annoyed? So what? Mafia can’t be annoyed by a bomb claim?
That was not my point. I was just saying that it looked like a statement made in annoyance rather than an actual serious suggestion. As for Mafia being annoyed by the Bomb claim, it's easier for them to know if Contrainer is Town or Mafia, plus they could also role cop him or something for more info. Unfortunately, Town can't do much with the bomb claim, so it makes sense for Town to be more annoyed when a person makes a bomb claim in a weird manner, without fully backing it up and without providing any other thoughts.

  1. Piko made a scummy comment
  2. Piko made a bs reads list
  3. Piko lies and tried to make himself look town leader type when he’s done nothing.
Town can make scummy comments too.
The timing may have been bad, but the reads list itself was not actually bs.
Ok that statement is wrong, I can give you that. Pikochu makes it look like he and ExLight were the only ones leading the discussion which is incorrect as people like you, FA and Darth were actually adding more to the discussion than Pikochu himself.

Hmm, reads ya say? Well I'll probably need some time to go over the thread again and solidify my reads, but here's a few that stand out to me:
Darth, I think you seem pretty Towny with your arguments and pushing for answers to try and solve the game. Mido too, and her Miller claim before everyone was even around makes her especially trustworthy. I agree that Zinn isn't looking too good right now, especially with the unexplained insinuation that you're Mafia. And as it's been pointed out, Pika's points in favor of Piko aren't incredibly strong, and he's worth further scrutiny if Piko flips Mafia.
That's it? Would really like it if you give some more thoughts on current scenario rather than just a reads list (based on what several people have actually said). This doesn't seem like you, MegaPod. You are usually far more active and assertive than this. You seem kind of half-hearted in this game for some reason, which is making me feel more suspicious about you.
On a serious note, hope there are no irl reasons for such behaviour.

Yeah, I'll admit that I probably didn't set that entire paragraph up very well. Just saying Pika and Piko rather than Pika Pika and Pikochu also likely did not help for clarity.
Yeah, that's why I call Pikochu my cousin brother lol. :p

I mean, it's certainly not impossible, but I don't find it likely, especially not from Pika.
What does the "especially not from Pika" part mean? Does it mean that you would find it more likely if someone else would have done it? If yes, why not from me? I get it that you are speaking in my favour, but I don't understand the meaning here.

Ok, first things first, I'm a Survivor, I'm gonna make it, I will Survive, keep on Survivin'. I'm not entirely sure why I chose now to claim this, just that my gut says do it now. I figured townsiding would be the best path to victory, and thus, just basically plating like Town would.
Ok, why did you feel like claiming now instead of D1 where we actually had some discussion related to the presence of indeps in this game?

I don't know if a standard Survivor ever existed in any of the games any of you submitted. Basically I was kinda paranoid that you might realise that a Survivor never existed once we mass claim the submitted games (I'm expecting that to happen eventually), and you'd all conclude I was lying and kill me because of that.
Idk why but this statement makes me very suspicious and paranoid about you.
 
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