• Hey everyone! The Writer's Workshop is hosting an exciting event, Trainers of Fanfiction! It's a community event focused around your characters! Click here to check out the event and sign up!

Ultra Wormholes, Multiverse Theories + Timeline Data

Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
Man, Ultra Wormholes, they took the whole multiverse theory that Zinnia introduced and basically confirmed it.



But to talk about Ultra Wormholes and the multiverse theory, I have to include this image. This is not mine at all, someone who's probably very awesome made this.

This image is awesome, but I prefer to shorten the names of the universes, I shorten them to Classicverse, Advancedverse, and Megaverse respectively. The Classicverse is RBY -> GSC, the Advancedverse is all the Gen 3-5 games, and the Megaverse is ORAS -> XY -> SM.

I had a long discussion on YouTube with a PokeTuber on his theory video about Looker, he mainly suggested that the Ultra Wormholes can not only move you to another universe, but to another time across universes, he was suggesting that ORAS took place only a couple years before SM, despite Anabel landing in the Megaverse after occupying the spot of the Tower's Frontier Brain in Emerald, ten years prior to SM. His main evidence for this was the lack of growth for Wally, however, Red, Blue, and Grimsley all showed noticeable changes. I told him Wally did get taller but might just have a baby face or an illness preventing healthy growth.

He also thinks that ORAS Looker is DPPl Looker and XY/SM Looker is the Megaverse's correct Looker, and that this could only possibly happen if DPPl Looker was not only transported to another universe, but also another time of another universe, however, I don't think the Ultra Wormholes are necessarily changing the time in which the victim travels to. I came to an alternative conclusion. ORAS Looker is RBY Looker. Yes, Gen 1 had a Looker. And while it's not confirmed, it's heavily implied that this is the case. In the Pokemon Generations shorts, episode 2 features a Looker on the trail of Giovanni taking place during the Kanto timeline in what appears to be the Megaverse, the secret police agent on the S.S. Anne is Looker also on Team Rocket's trail but in the Classicverse.

I proposed to this Pokemon Theorist that ORAS Looker is RBY Looker, and that he fell off the S.S. Anne not long after being talked to in RBY and got sucked into an Ultra Wormhole. The best thing about this theory is that my idea of the Ultra Wormholes only altering space and not time works with this, RBY would take place at the same segment of time as ORAS/RSE/Classicverse's Hoenn. Perhaps the S.S. Anne was passing by Hoenn when the incident happened, so he literally popped out where he was sucked in but in the Megaverse. We do know from the Advancedverse that FRLG and RSE take place alongside each other, we can assume this to be the case for all iterations of universes.

So as I was saying, ORAS is actually RBY Looker, which left the Classicverse without a Looker to continue the pursuit on Team Rocket in GSC. XY/SM Looker are the same Looker, and this one rightfully belongs to the Megaverse. DPPl and Unova Looker are one and the same as well, and are rightfully in the Advancedverse, being the only one of the three Lookers who wasn't somehow influenced by Ultra Beasts, at least up to BW.

So the Classicverse lost their Looker, the Megaverse has their own and Classicverse's Looker, and the Advancedverse's Looker is untouched and rightfully where he belongs.

Here's another important image to bring up when talking about timelines:



This was a confirmed and canon timeline as of XY, there's no reason it can't still be true, you just have to take into consideration the multiverse theory when looking at it, it reads, basically:

Kanto/Hoenn -> Johto/Sinnoh -> Unova1 -> Unova2/Kalos, which I'll add -> Alola to.

This is a generic timeline which all the universes most likely follow to some extent, the reason I say to some extent is because there's a good chance that several regions in the Classicverse, while they do exist, probably do not have as much of a built society as they do in the Advanced or Megaverse, this could also hold true for Kalos in the Advancedverse. Perhaps since AZ never built the ultimate weapon in that one, Kalos got severely damaged from the continuation of the war and Kalos was deemed a total loss. Either the war damaged Kalos beyond recognition, but another theory accepted is that the war never happened for the Advancedverse.

Edits:

So my v1 OP was pretty damn messy, so I'm gonna keep what is shown above and refine everything below this.

So after being convinced by Esserise, I've since adopted the belief that the gap between DPPL -> BW is probably 5 or 6 years, he also helped me confirm that the gap from XY -> SM is indeed 2 years, so now we can piece together as close to a complete timeline as currently possible, as shown below:

Kanto/Hoenn -3 years-> Johto/Sinnoh -5 years-> Unova1 -2 years-> Unova2/Kalos -2 years-> Alola

This means Red and Blue are about 23 in Sun and Moon.

Once again, I must emphasize that there are three universes, assuming all the information gathered to create the first picture in this post, they are as follows:

-The Classicverse
-The Advancedverse
-The Megaverse

The Classicverse is the most technologically primitive, as many things that are commonplace in the Advanced and Megaverses seem brand new, such as Johto Pokemon, breeding, and loads of other technologies. My theory is that Missingno eventually caused the destruction of this universe, which is why it doesn't progress much past the time period that GSC occur, in this specific universe, the timeline is as follows:

RBY -3 years-> GSC
-
The Advancedverse is the most complete telling of the Pokemon story, with all regions (but the new Kalos and Alola regions) being present.

Like the Classicverse, events of RBY and GSC also happen in this universe, in the form of FRLG and HGSS, but with technological advanced happening sooner, connectivity with other regions happening sooner, and no influence by Missingno, the timeline here is as follows:

FRLG/RSE -3 years-> HGSS/DPPl -5 years-> BW -2 years-> BW2

It is unknown if the Kalos and Alola regions exist in this universe, if they do, they're probably not as high tech and not as relevant as they are in the Megaverse. It is confirmed by Zinnia that the Kalos war from 3,000 years prior of XY never happened in this universe, meaning Mega Evolution and Infinity Energy were never created/discovered. It's also worth noting that the Anabel you meet in Sun and Moon is the exact Anabel you can battle in Emerald, where she serves and protects the Battle Tower as its Frontier Brain.
-
The Megaverse is the current universe being built upon by Gamefreak, but we have no counterpart games to many of the stories told in the Advancedverse, the notable exceptions being ORAS serving as the Megaverse's version of the events of RSE, and Origins sort of standing in as the universe's events from FRLG, with this we can piece together this timeline:

Origins/ORAS -3 years-> Johto/Sinnoh -5 years-> Unova1 -2 years-> Unova2/XY -2 years-> SM

The sections named by regions and not games are the ones we don't have games for yet, or game-based animated adaptations in the case of Origins, however, Pokemon Generations was a series of shorts implied to take place alongside and after Origins, and unlike the actual anime and manga, the events here are damn near exactly like what the events of all the games would look like in the Megaverse, and Generations shows us a lot of behind-the-scenes events that you don't see happen as the player character, such as Red traveling through every known region, including Kalos, confirming that this takes place after Origins and in the Megaverse like Origins. Looker is notably on the trail of Team Rocket through the events of Kanto and Johto, but is coincidentally absent from the Hoenn region entirely, further proving that the Looker from ORAS is a different Looker from XY and SM.

My Looker theory fits this wonderfully, since if Looker was on the trail of Team Rocket in the Megaverse, that secret police agent in RBY could very well be Looker, it all fits together so far.

Classicverse's Looker most likely fell off the S.S. Anne due to interference from an Ultra Beast, causing him to get transported to ORAS from RBY. Origins/ORAS probably take place at the same time since FRLG/RSE do, which means he was transported to the same spot on the timeline, just in a different universe. It's very plausible, and that's why I think ORAS Looker cannot be DPPl/BW's Looker, since all those events happen after the stories of Kanto and Hoenn.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Fuji?!
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,727
Reaction score
12,298
1. Your Looker theory is nice.

2. I don't see a reason for the GB/C games not to take place in their own universe. Suffice to say that if they were overidden by their remakes, RGBY wouldn't be more relevant these days than FRLG are.

3. I doubt that Wally's lack of growth means that ORAS take place after RSE. Wally and Cynthia only ever battle, rather than interacting with the player outside the Battle Tree (like all the other returning characters). So Game Freak just gave them the PWT treatment.

4. I'm pretty sure that the grunt met his wife in Unova. Also, Caitlin looks older than 17 in BW... My assumption is that the gap is 5-6 years.

5. Grimsley is said to be two years older in his concept art. That should mean that SM are set 2 years after B2W2/XY.
 
Laid to Wake
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
6,147
Reaction score
16,149
> Man, Ultra Wormholes, they took the whole multiverse theory that Zinnia introduced and basically confirmed it.

It bugs me when people call Zinnia's statement a "theory." It was never a theory; she says that the Draconids had been observing the other world for generations. It was only a "theory" in the minds of people who refused to accept what they were being told.

> he was suggesting that ORAS took place only a couple years before SM, despite Anabel landing in the Megaverse after occupying the spot of the Tower's Frontier Brain in Emerald, ten years prior to SM.

Yeah, I've tried to propose that theory before, but it's very counterintuitive. I've since abandoned it. The only good, practical reason to shift ORAS's placement in time would be to make them sequels to XY so as to alleviate the contradictions about Mega Evolution and Fairy types, but they're obviously not sequels by virtue of the Mr. Bonding formation scene, and those contradictions are ultimately no different from Eggs being in FRLG despite them being newly discovered in GSC; we know that gameplay supersedes the story continuity. On top of that, the Royal Unova model in the Oceanic Museum means that ORAS must take place prior to BW which is already 4 years prior to SM, which really defeats the point of pushing ORAS closer to SM in order to account for Wally's age (but we can excuse that simply by saying that he ages well - there are lots of people in real life who look remarkably young for their age). Also, this:


I'm also very suspicious of that kid at the Battle Resort who is fascinated by the dancing Whismur. You'll have a hard time convincing me that it's not meant to be Tierno circa 10 years ago. On top of that, the Memory Girl in Lilycove uses a child's sprite, which gives me the impression that it's meant to be the same person as the Memory Girl in Anistar many years later (who uses a Furisode Girl sprite). Similarly, the girl at the Mossdeep Space Center who marvels at the thickness of the rocket model uses a teenaged Teammates sprites, whereas in XY, the woman who marvels at the thickness of the pillar in the Hotel Richissime is an adult-aged maid.

> Perhaps since AZ never built the ultimate weapon in that one, Kalos got severely damaged from the continuation of the war and Kalos was deemed a total loss. Either the war damaged Kalos beyond recognition, but another theory accepted is that the war never happened for the Advancedverse.

The war never happened, period. That's something else that Zinnia outright tells us which is frequently overlooked/misinterpreted.

But in order for the war to have never happened, Kalos must have been in a considerably different sociopolitical climate. The reason why the war started in the first place was because neighboring countries grew envious of Kalos's wealth and technological prosperity, which had been ushered in by AZ, who united Kalos "for the first time." That leads me to think that AZ was simply never a factor in the GBADSverse's proto-Kalos region. Who knows why.

> Many people think the gap is bigger because of the Team Rocket Grunt's kid, but I don't find this to be the case. If his wife was already pregnant as of HGSS, the child is 2-3 years old in BW, which means it's perfectly reasonable for them to be able to talk.

Keep in mind that his kid uses this sprite (the Schoolkid class):


That's probably not a three-year-old.

Besides, there's no immediate reason to assume that Anabel didn't hold onto her position as a Frontier Brain for a while before going missing.

> There are many who don't believe the Classicverse even exists, and that the Advancedverse is just a retelling of the Classicverse and that they are one and the same.

I think that the GBGBCverse probably does exist, but I advise caution in discussing it since they've not yet acknowledged it at all in canon.

> Do you think Ultra Wormholes can modify time as well as space, or do you think the time in which one is transported through one is maintained on the opposite end?

I think that they probably can transport individuals through time as well as space. Time and space are intrinsically linked, and wormholes are frequently thought of as being able to move through both time and space. That being said, I don't dismiss the seeming consistency with which all known Fallers seem to have emerged relative to the time at which they left. Of course, in the case of the SM protagonist, Lillie, Lusamine, and Guzma, they were guided out by Nebby, so maybe that gets around the risk of ending up in a different time?

I'm not against the idea of the Faller Looker being from the GBGBCverse, though.

> What about your timeline? Is it longer? Shorter? A lot of people think it's 20 years but I highly doubt Cynthia is 40+ and Red and Blue are in their 30s.

Kanto/Hoenn > 3yrs > Johto/Sinnoh > 6yrs > Unova BW > 2yrs > Unova B2W2/Kalos > 2yrs > Alola

Considering that Red was 11 in RBY, I think he would now be 24 as of SM.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Fuji?!
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,727
Reaction score
12,298
Celebi was able to move through space in HGSS, so yes, time and space are linked. Still, the Looker theory is elegant assuming they'll ever get around to confirming it.
 
Nuzlocke Lover
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
3,627
Reaction score
4,150
Time and space? I hope that we can get more story about the Ultra Space in possible Sinnoh remakes.
 
Dr. Fuji?!
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,727
Reaction score
12,298
It's not the Ultra Space that needs to be explored further, honestly. It is the concept of the multiverse, rather.

Also, Celebi and the Unown did more in HGSS to fiddle with time and space than Dialga and Palkia ever did.
 
Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
66
Reaction score
43
This is too complicated for me to understand. :p

But I do have one comment.. Due to Pokemon being a mainly childrens game and the concept pretty simple. I do not think that Gamefreak and the Pokemon Company have put this much thought into the story.
 
Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
> Man, Ultra Wormholes, they took the whole multiverse theory that Zinnia introduced and basically confirmed it.

Oh trust me I'm with you there. I am in no way saying I only thought of it as a theory. I'm saying most people thought it was. Sun and Moon is only sticking it to the naysayers who thought Zinnia was a crazy lady. I never doubted her and I was one of the biggest discussers of the multiverse theory in the Gen 6 section. That being said, I could accept a 12 year timeline, making the gap 5 years instead of 3 between Johto/Sinnoh and Unova, I can also except that the Ultra Wormholes may have the ability to transport you through time as well as space since they are linked themes, however, I'd hope that for the sake of simplicity, none of the Fallers so far were transported through time, only which universe they were in. If SM Looker falls through an Ultra Wormhole to become ORAS Looker, that makes things way more complicated than it needs to be. I'd much rather go with RBY Looker becoming SM Looker and XY/SM Looker just chooses not to reveal RBY/ORAS Looker's identity or existence to the player for obvious reasons.
 
Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
I was also not aware that Grimsley was confirmed to be two years older in SM, that's actually awesome and means my suspected gap between BW2/XY -> SM was correct, so go me, but that also means we're one gap away from having a 100% confirmed timeline, and that's the gap between HGSS/DPPl -> BW, I think if they're going to put some time travel shenanigans involving Anabel and Looker, they have to first confirm what the gap is in that portion of the timeline, and then we'll know how many years it takes for certain events to unfold and what not, and they could more easily incorporate events of time travel and maybe start numbering years on the timeline, but perhaps they wouldn't go that far for whatever reasons.

Looker doesn't necessarily know about his other self...
I would think he does. I highly doubt Faller Looker has just been sitting in that house at the Battle Resort drying off for the last 10-13 years. He was probably taken into custody by Megaverse Looker's team to investigate the possibility that he, like Anabel, was a Faller, what they didn't know was that Faller Looker is not Advancedverse's Looker, he can't be if he appears in Platinum and BW, but he is RBY Looker. It'd be hard not to notice another you, especially when most of the regions we know of in the Pokemon World are relatively closely linked. However, it's worth noting that the one region we don't see Looker in is Hoenn, and when I say Looker, I mean a Looker who knows who he is and isn't suffering from amnesia. We've seen him in Kanto and by extension we can count Johto thanks to both RBY and Generations, we've seen him in Sinnoh in Platinum, Unova in BW, Kalos in XY, and Alola in SM. That's every region BUT Hoenn. If we assume he just never went to Hoenn, there's a chance, I suppose, that he is actually unaware of ORAS Looker's existence.
 
Dr. Fuji?!
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,727
Reaction score
12,298
It's either that he doesn't know or that he didn't see fit to mention it in SM, even though he referenced Anabel being from Hoenn and was talkative about the prior UB incident. I know which theory I prefer.
 
Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
It's either that he doesn't know or that he didn't see fit to mention it in SM, even though he referenced Anabel being from Hoenn and was talkative about the prior UB incident. I know which theory I prefer.
However they go about Looker, I just hope they don't somehow find a way to shoehorn in ORAS Looker as also being XY and SM Looker. I'd be fine with him just not knowing about ORAS Looker due to Hoenn being the only region he never had a significant role in.
 
Lovely
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
14,336
Reaction score
3,873
My brain hurts D: I am pretty sure that ORAS takes place before Emerald because the Match Call was still in development, Steven asks Wallace to take the champion spot, and the Battle Frontier wasn't built yet. But then SM takes place some time after or simultaneously with Emerald since Anabel traveled through the worm hole. Though it could be argued that Emerald can be considered an independent universe since the twitter doesn't mention where Emerald fits.

but I highly doubt Cynthia is 40+
Well, Lusamine is more than 40 years old and she looks like a 20-year-old, so I don't think a person's appearance can determine their age in the pokeverse - especially if that era has advanced technology (which would also mean better beauty products and whatnot). Same goes for the guys.
 
Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
My brain hurts D: I am pretty sure that ORAS takes place before Emerald because the Match Call was still in development, Steven asks Wallace to take the champion spot, and the Battle Frontier wasn't built yet. But then SM takes place some time after or simultaneously with Emerald since Anabel traveled through the worm hole. Though it could be argued that Emerald can be considered an independent universe since the twitter doesn't mention where Emerald fits.


Well, Lusamine is more than 40 years old and she looks like a 20-year-old, so I don't think a person's appearance can determine their age in the pokeverse - especially if that era has advanced technology (which would also mean better beauty products and whatnot). Same goes for the guys.
Emerald doesn't have to be mentioned to know that it takes place at the same time as RS and ORAS, however, things get even more complicated when you talk about individual versions. Every version is a skewed timeline of events that could happen in that universe.

Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald all take place within what I've called the Advancedverse, that's obvious enough, however, all three are just as equally canon as the next, they're all individual timeline possibilities, and could even be regarded as minor multiverses off of a major multiverse. The major multiverse is that the Kalos War didn't happen therefor Mega Evolution doesn't exist, every decision that is made creates a new timeline of whether that decision is made one way or another, for example, AZ firing the Ultimate Weapon or not, being that the war never happens, that right there creates two possibilities, either RSE happens or ORAS happens, but then each game has a series of similar events that are all slightly different based on the decisions of the evil team and characters like Steven and Wallace, and then it gets cut down into even more possibilities depending on what gender the player is, the name of that player, and the starter they pick.

In short, there's an infinite possibility of multiverses stemming off every choice that is ever made, but that doesn't mean Emerald takes place after Ruby, Sapphire, Omega Ruby, or Alpha Sapphire, it just means Emerald is off a timeline where things accelerated a little quicker, the Battle Frontier was built ahead of schedule, and Steven had decided to step down from being the Champion even sooner. ORAS merely references these events as possibilities, at least that's my theory. I could also be full of shit, who knows?

These are the most generalized and canon timelines we can put together:

Classicverse: Yellow -> Crystal
Advancedverse: FireRed/Emerald -> HeartGold/Platinum -> White -> White 2
Megaverse: OR -> Y -> Sun

My reasons for picking the red games for storylines that didn't have a third version all across the board do go further than them simply picking the red games, FireRed because the canon protagonist is Red who should pick a Charmander based on the events of Origins, although Yellow proposes that he could have picked Pikachu and Crystal greatly supports this theory. HeartGold simply to line up better with FireRed and it's version exclusives, White and White 2 because N had a Reshiram in Generations, although that isn't saying much when he had a Zekrom in the Adventures Manga. I picked Omega Ruby because it makes more sense to want to expand the land than the sea when there's 30/70 split between the two and it can be argued that the human race genuinely does need more land, Y makes more sense because Lysandre wants to abuse Yveltal to kill everyone, and Sun because it follows a traditional clock whereas Moon follows an inverted clock. That's not to say the blue versions, or the paired versions that precede third versions aren't canon in their own way as well, like I said, every game and every choice that can be made in every game explores another possibility for a branched timeline or universe.

It does indeed hurt to think about, the events where there are no third versions hurt the most, but where there are third versions, it definitely makes the most sense to consider them the canon one, since Cynthia recalls events from Platinum whether you play Black or White, and Anabel was a Frontier Brain in Emerald whether you play Sun or Moon.
 
Last edited:
Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2016
Messages
2,701
Reaction score
2,453
I wonder how Zinnia's ancestors know about the other Hoenn region. Did someone travel there?
 
Moved to PokeCommunity
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,769
Reaction score
3,262
I wonder how Zinnia's ancestors know about the other Hoenn region. Did someone travel there?
Hm....
Zinnia or her ancestors might be a Faller. I mean, she’s a Lorekeeper, she should know this. And it’s possible she was in RSE as a grunt for one of the teams. Zinnia needs more love.
 
Empoleon Fanatic
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
1,056
Reaction score
606
She explained it in-game. They can see the other world through distortions that are generated by Mega Evolution.
Did someone say distortion?

*insert "Sinnoh confirmed" here*

But seriously we already mentioned time and space, the more I think about it, the more likely Sinnoh seems to come up, plus in the Aether Foundation they were studying cases of Pokémon that could open portals or wormholes, they never did mention Hoopa though.

I'm assuming some of the Draconids had visited RSE Hoenn at one point, long before Zinnia's time, however.
 
Dr. Fuji?!
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
18,727
Reaction score
12,298
plus in the Aether Foundation they were studying cases of Pokémon that could open portals or wormholes, they never did mention Hoopa though.
It was the Dimensional Research Lab and one of the NPCs did mention Hoopa.
 
Top