Ultra Wormholes, Multiverse Theories + Timeline Data

[Esserise]

In all fairness, once you bring multiverses into the fray, stuff like what you (@EmpoleonProd) have listed is actually perfectly easy to explain away. If, hypothetically, XY and ORAS were in different universes, then the Chatelaines in ORAS would just be that universe's counterpart to the ones that appeared in XY's universe. The AZ that gave Sootopolis the tree would just be a different AZ in a different universe, with the same backstory otherwise.

That's largely the problem, I think, is just that Game Freak didn't fully think things through. I think it's pretty obvious that ORAS are meant to retcon XY into being part of a universe where Mega Evolution exists while the other games are displaced into a universe where the war never even happened. Zinnia's dialogue is pretty cut-and-dry, and is a major point in the Delta Episode plot that literally the entire fandom took notice of. And those other ties and connections to XY only strengthen this. But Game Freak almost certainly didn't plan out the multiverse thing while writing XY, instead treating them as more of a sequel to the ongoing series. But they made the bizarre decision to write it in the needlessly restricting way that they did, and then when writing ORAS, they either forgot about those lines or just didn't care. Maybe they just didn't see the retcons as being a problem and expected people to roll with it.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

But the thing is, is that there's no reason for this universe split. The picture in my OP clearly defines three major universes, every individual game and every individual choice in each game can create its own little branch, but the big picture is that Gen 1-2 is one universe, 3-5 is another, and 6-7 is another. There's essentially no denying that. If you want to get technical, my PC in Sun is a dimensional counterpart to your PC in Moon, but that's not the point. The point is all the lore of XY lines up just fine with the lore we're told in ORAS and again in SM.

But whatever, this argument is going nowhere, I've stayed up long enough fooling around with this. Don't say I didn't tell you when Gamefreak goes through the process of confirming everything I've said. Good night, have fun with your fanons, meanwhile I'll be over here looking at these things called facts. You must be right and I must be wrong, good bye.

 

[Ereshkigal]

Okay here you go completely missing the point again. Steven, Red, and the others don't have access to Megas in BW2 because BW2 is in the Advancedverse, ORAS is quite obviously in the Megaverse. You cannot deny with a straight face that XY and ORAS have intertwining lore, if you can, sincerely, you need to play a version of both sets of games over, and play the Hoenn one first, just because Sycamore makes a big deal about it, doesn't mean it's new.

You included Unova in the Megaverse in your Megaverse timeline. Right now, the only Unova we have are the games you're labeling as Advancedverse. Until we have remakes of the Unova games, we can't use anything from a potential remake timeline because we don't know what those events would be.

And, I'll deal with the intertwining lore after the next quote.

Explain the following things to me, then.

The Battle Maison and the Chatelaines.

AZ's tree in Sootopolis.

Zinnia mentioning the war 3,000 years ago, saying it happened for our universe, but not for the other Hoenn's universe.

Simple: They're timelines that are very similar in detail, with one difference. This is something you're going to see with a lot of timelines, because for the most part events proceeded the same way in both timelines. As Esserise pointed out.

It's like with our Earth... Many alternate timelines, the general events proceeded much as they did in the way we're familiar with. But, you might have a timeline where Britain honored its deal with the Palestinians, resulting in the nation of Palestine instead of the nation of Israel. Up until after World War 2, there's not going to be much difference. Even during the Cold War, you're probably not going to see much difference. It likely won't be until the mid-1990s that you start seeing the real effects of this change, so a traveller from our 1992 heading to that alternate 1992 would only notice an oddity on the world map as the major difference... if they even noticed it at all.

You're using one tiny detail from XY and trying to negate a plethora of proof that they're in the same universe, it's just not gonna work dude, give it up, else everyone is gonna think you're honestly trolling.

I'm sure Esserise can bring up a bunch of other points as to why they're the same universe. The war 3,000 year seems ago didn't happen for every game prior to XY, but did for every game since XY, that's not just coincidental.

I'm not using one tiny detail. I'm using several tiny details, a knowledge of temporal mechanics, and a knowledge of real-world and Pokemon world history. When Infinity Energy is utilized by modern civilization isn't actually a small detail; it doesn't have any major effects now, but access to effectively-limitless energy is going to have massive effects later. The ORAS timeline is going to advance faster than the XY timeline because the ORAS timeline has a head start on utilizing this technology and doesn't have its first introduction to the energy being Infinity Energy utilized as a weapon (which is what has hindered nuclear power in real life).

There's also the fact that Infinity Energy is only referenced by that name in one game. Despite the fact it exists in Sun and Moon, they don't reference using it. Don't you find it odd they have this technology lying around and, apparently, only one region is actually using it despite other regions having access to mega evolution? That, effectively, Sun and Moon goes out of its way to not reference Infinity Energy?

But the thing is, is that there's no reason for this universe split.

You're right. There's no reason at all this split should have even been possible in the first place. GF screwed up with XY, and then they screwed up further with ORAS.

But whatever, this argument is going nowhere, I've stayed up long enough fooling around with this. Don't say I didn't tell you when Gamefreak goes through the process of confirming everything I've said. Good night, have fun with your fanons, meanwhile I'll be over here looking at these things called facts. You must be right and I must be wrong, good bye.

What are you going to do if they don't confirm what you've said?

I'm always willing to accept the possibility I'm wrong. This entire thing with mega evolution? They can solve that in Stars just by having Celebi take the player back in time and introduce Mega Evolution to the Devon Corporation. One event, maybe five minutes of activity, boom... ORAS is part of the main timeline, RSE is pushed out, and the inconsistencies between ORAS and XY are smoothed out. This wouldn't even be the first time GF has done something like this.

What would I do if GF did that or something else to fix the problem? Applaud them for fixing the timeline, admit I had a flawed theory, move on.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Once again, you completely missed the point, I mentioned this before but I'll mention it again, the portions where I mention regions and not games are placeholders for games that don't exist, namely, Mega Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova.

Advancedverse:

FRLG/RSE -> HGSS/DPPl -> BW -> BW2

Megaverse:

Kanto/ORAS -> Johto/Sinnoh -> Unova1 -> Unova2/XY -> SM

Make sense now? In the Megaverse we know that all the previous stories happen, just a bit different with major characters and plots containing Mega Evolution.

I never tried including BW2 in the Megaverse, that was you and I already proved that wrong, you need to read my posts a little more closely if that's what you thought I said.

 

[Ereshkigal]

You're addressing a mistake that was not made and missing the subtle point I was trying to make.

You can't count on BW and B2W2 as part of this timeline until they've been released. What are you going to do if instead of remakes, they're simply released on the Virtual Console for Switch as pure ports?

Your entire timeline is reliant upon theoretical games that might not exist. All it takes is GF deciding not to do things that way and your entire timeline shatters. And GF has proven they are willing to consider the Virtual Console as an avenue of game release.

One of the consistent problems with your entire timeline set-up is it relies on things not changing. Except that, as the Switch demonstrates merely by existing, things are going to change. We don't know how. We don't know how much. But it is entirely possible GF will stop doing remakes simply because of the resource investment of developing for the Switch. It's been over a decade since they developed for any console more powerful than a handheld, and the video game world has changed a lot in that time.

So, yeah, I was ignoring the hypothetical games. Because until we get some evidence they will exist, they are irrelevant to discussions of the timeline as it exists.

 

[Esserise]

If you ask me, I think it's waaaaaaaay too earlier to be considering BW remakes, or anything along those lines, as a factor in this subject. There's no way we can see that far ahead.

I don't think that a mere port could possibly compare to hypothetical remakes and would be a glaring disservice to BW, but that's a on separate note.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

If you ask me, I think it's waaaaaaaay too earlier to be considering BW remakes, or anything along those lines, as a factor in this subject. There's no way we can see that far ahead.

I don't think that a mere port could possibly compare to hypothetical remakes and would be a glaring disservice to BW, but that's a on separate note.

I know they're far out, I didn't say they're coming anytime soon, but what we do know is the events of all the regions in the Advancedverse take place in the Megaverse, that's all I'm trying to get across, he misunderstood and thought I was saying BW2 is after ORAS, which it isn't, it's after RSE in that universe, which is something I previously took great strides to prove.

A story extremely similar to Unova's takes place in the Megaverse, but like ORAS to RSE, things will be changed here and there based on the influence of things like Mega Evolution, possibly Primal Reversions, Ultra Beasts, Infinity Energy, etc.

Anyways, Gamefreak did say they'd love to continue doing remakes of old games if that's what the players want, which is great because it all but confirms that eventually, we will get Megaverse equivalents of all prior games, they have to be the Megaverse since Megas are an entire game mechanic and they aren't going anywhere, this doesn't mean they'll always be the big plot point, but they will exist. It's also worth noting that few Unova Pokémon have Megas, and there's quite a few Pokémon that still need Megas, such as the Johto or Sinnoh starters, you have no idea how excited I am personally at the thought of a Mega Empoleon xD

Edit: And talking about hypothetical games is not irrelevant in timeline discussions, we know that all prior regions exist in the Megaverse, they all get mentioned many times, Grimsley and Colress even appear in SM which take place two years after Megaverse BW2, Red and Blue confirm the Kanto and Johto stories exist in some way in the Megaverse, and Cynthia confirms that the plot of Sinnoh exists, but we don't have games set in these regions in this universe, so until we do, I have to put placeholders on the Megaverse's timeline.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

So I'm reviving this thread, mainly because I want to bring this topic back up and felt this more necessary than starting another thread outright, and I want to clarify my opinions on some things.

Previously, I was not open to the idea that events could take place at different times in the different universes, i.e., RSE take place, relevant to all other events, exactly at the same time as ORAS do relevant to those same events in the Megaverse, I am now open to this possibility. I was also NOT open to the idea that wormholes could travel you through time, only space/dimensions/universes. I now see I was foolish in that regard, as many of you mentioned, space and time are ultimately linked and should be treated as such, so this brings me to my next points of discussion, what IS the Mega timeline? Prior to now, I had always assumed it would be an exact parallel to the Advancedverse (Gen 3-5), that being:

Kanto/Hoenn -3 years-> Johto/Sinnoh -5ish years-> Unova1 -2 years-> Unova2/Kalos -2 years-> Alola

I previously thought this timeline could be placed as being correct in both the Mega and non-Mega universes, although I am open to more discussion on that, first let me say, I can still willingly stand by this timeline, I've extended my gap from Johto/Sinnoh -> Unova from 3 years to 5 or 6 years, I'm okay with that now after a lot of research and past discussion. First, let's talk about why this timeline can be CORRECT.

• Red and Blue both have aged around 10-15 years from the looks of things, the above timeline would put them at going from 11 at the beginning to 23 in the Alola games.
• By connecting the dots, we know SM take place two years after XY. IF we assume a Megaverse version of BW2 would take place at the same time as XY, which is stated as much by Matsumiya's timeline and artwork descriptions of Grimsley, stating he has aged 2 years "since his last appearance", being BW2.
• We can also tell that BW takes place at LEAST five years after HGSS and DPPl, since the stray Team Rocket grunt in HGSS has a kid with a schoolboy sprite, who we can put a minimum age of five on.
• Colress seems to openly recognize Ghetsis in USUM, heavily implying that events of both BW and BW2 happened in a fairly similar fashion in the Megaverse as they did in the Advancedverse

Now, let's look at reasons why perhaps this timeline is NOT correct.

• Wally hasn't appeared to have aged much
• A lot of Looker shenanigans
• A LOT of Looker shenanigans

Unless there is other evidence in XY, ORAS, SM, or USUM that can contradict the last official timeline, I see no reason why we can't still follow it.

I think I can take a crack at explaining Wally's situation. Wally isn't exactly a major enough character to warrant a redesign when they can just sort of "stretch" and modify his ORAS model to fit into Gen 7's models. I think his lack of aging is more of an oversight than anything, however, I can go beyond this: Wally ages EXTREMELY well. Look at Lusamine. Hau mistakes her for being maybe 20, and she chuckles and exclaims that she's actually over 40. This is not unheard of in the real world either, maybe people in the film industry regularly play characters in the teens, despite being in their 20s or 30s, now obviously this is teens we're talking about, Wally is supposedly 10 in ORAS according to Bulbapedia's page on him, although I cannot find this being explicitly stated anywhere, so I'm going to have to go with him being 12 like Brendan and May for sake of discussion until proven otherwise. Personally, I'm 20. I look mostly the same as I did when I was 14, I'm commonly mistaken as being 16 or under, when I got a job at a dealership, an employee that saw me on my first day was like "what are you doing here? do you even have a license?", so if I can barely change and supposedly age well, perhaps Wally can as well.

So that's Wally taken care of, Looker is where my brain starts to hurt.

Looker had a mission with Nanu and an unknown female Faller 10 years ago in Alola, it seems he's not Faller Looker from ORAS, but rather, the Megaverse's original Looker. If the timeline is to be believed, he should be in either Sinnoh, Unova, or Kalos in this time period, although I'm sure a man like him can stay busy enough to hop from region to region on almost a weekly basis. What about Faller Looker? A lot of people speculate that ORAS might take place a lot closer to XY and SM than the "official" timeline suggests, although it almost certainly, at the very least, takes place before them, like I said, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case and I'm certainly open to it possibly taking place much later than the events of RSE do in their universe, but still not after XY, even though that would save a lot of headaches as to the nature of Mega Evolution, we know it, at the very least, precedes XY SLIGHTLY because of the formation of Mr. Bonding.

What I want to know from everyone else is, where is ORAS Looker from, what time did he disappear from, and where is he now? Is Alola Looker hiding something? Is he a Faller and he knows it? Or doesn't know it?

Do you believe the events can take place in different periods of time between universes? I strongly want to believe this to not be the case, but I'm open to it now.

I do remember back when ORAS came out, there was something about a swimmer in both games that proved a five year gap between them, which would seemingly push the events of ORAS to happen inbetween the events of Johto/Sinnoh and Unova1, at least on the timeline we're given to work with, I'm going to also give the events year numbers as to make this easier, let's call them the following:

FRLG/RSE: Year 0001
HGSS/DPPl: Year 0004
BW: Year 0010
BW2/XY: Year 0012
SMUSUM: Year 0014

This idea of ORAS taking place five years before XY, would place ORAS at year 0007 instead of year 0001. Note that, the timeline we have to work with is one from Matsumiya, which was made shortly after XY came out, ORAS could EASILY change the timeline very drastically to where it's no longer correct, at least not for the Megaverse, since events might very well take place at entirely different times, but it's the closest thing we have to a complete and official timeline, so let's try not to ditch it quite yet.

My ultimate goal with this thread it to try to come up with a consensus on the "order of operations" so to speak, of the Megaverse, its events, and how, and when, it ties into the Advancedverse. I'm going to assume the Classicverse no longer exists, as many people mentioned, it's not canon yet, Zinnia and Anabel make up to two universes canon, the Advancedverse and Megaverse.

 

[nickdt]

There is a major problem for the Multiple universe theory, since there is only one Universe... since if ORAS, SUMO and XY are in the Mega Timeline, that means Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh and Unova don't exist in this timeline, since we haven't visited them yet, which means all the Pokemon from those regions having Mega's is basically impossible.

 

[WallflowerCanyon]

I think the entire Rainbow Rocket deal confirmed that there are multiple universes that exist. Henceforth, I don't try to make a huge headache out of the whole situation.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

There is a major problem for the Multiple universe theory, since there is only one Universe... since if ORAS, SUMO and XY are in the Mega Timeline, that means Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh and Unova don't exist in this timeline, since we haven't visited them yet, which means all the Pokemon from those regions having Mega's is basically impossible.

But that can’t be because all the regions are mentioned many times, Red, Blue, Cynthia, Colress, and Grimsley appear with Megas, so clearly the events of all the games take place similarly enough that the big time trainers in the regions are mostly the same, so yes, they DO exist, we just don’t have a game to associate them with, and we may never have those games, but we could.

 

[nickdt]

But that can’t be because all the regions are mentioned many times, Red, Blue, Cynthia, Colress, and Grimsley appear with Megas, so clearly the events of all the games take place similarly enough that the big time trainers in the regions are mostly the same, so yes, they DO exist, we just don’t have a game to associate them with, and we may never have those games, but we could.

Indeed. And since we don't have visited those regions in the Mega Timeline yet, there is only one timeline.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Indeed. And since we don't have visited those regions in the Mega Timeline yet, there is only one timeline.

So let me get this straight, you’re saying that until proven otherwise, the official timeline is good for both universes.

 

[Midorikawa]

I doubt they consider the npcs when when making the games. There will be discrepancies without a doubt. If you try to figure them out, you’ll just drive yourself insane. I would say go with a general timeline, the one that was announced officially.

 

[Ereshkigal]

Looker had a mission with Nanu and an unknown female Faller 10 years ago in Alola, it seems he's not Faller Looker from ORAS, but rather, the Megaverse's original Looker. If the timeline is to be believed, he should be in either Sinnoh, Unova, or Kalos in this time period, although I'm sure a man like him can stay busy enough to hop from region to region on almost a weekly basis. What about Faller Looker? A lot of people speculate that ORAS might take place a lot closer to XY and SM than the "official" timeline suggests, although it almost certainly, at the very least, takes place before them, like I said, this doesn't necessarily have to be the case and I'm certainly open to it possibly taking place much later than the events of RSE do in their universe, but still not after XY, even though that would save a lot of headaches as to the nature of Mega Evolution, we know it, at the very least, precedes XY SLIGHTLY because of the formation of Mr. Bonding.

What I want to know from everyone else is, where is ORAS Looker from, what time did he disappear from, and where is he now? Is Alola Looker hiding something? Is he a Faller and he knows it? Or doesn't know it?

Do you believe the events can take place in different periods of time between universes? I strongly want to believe this to not be the case, but I'm open to it now.

Is it possible there's more than two Lookers? If "Looker" is a codename, then it would make sense for the organization he works for to muddy the waters for anyone hunting that agent by having multiple people use it. Each would have a different internal codename, but externally they would all use the same moniker.

I also think there are multiple Mega Evolution timelines involved, with ORAS and X/Y being two different timelines. It would explain how Mega Evolution is more commonly known in ORAS, but a new discovery in X/Y. Possibly, their point of divergence is ORAS discovering it much earlier.

Events can take place in different periods of time between universes with ease. All it requires is one universe to form later than another. Thus, even though the events would be concurrent between the universes, they would still be at different periods of time in each universe. It helps to view time as an external force to the universe; time did not begin with the Big Bang, but had already been proceeding, with matter within the universe acting as a modulator for how fast time filters into that universe.

Stop reading here if you don't want this to get too complex.

Note the above doesn't get into the possibility the Pokemon games all take place within the same universe, but in different three-dimensional bubbles of physics floating around in it (this is a real theory about our own universe). Add in the possibility that each bubble has multiple timelines and you can easily explain the differences between games and when events happen without involving the headache of time travel between universes. Basically, some bubbles formed later than others and are further behind on events. It also explains how Pokemon can travel between the games without any appreciable issues (a universe is a set of physics; changing the set of physics can be... incredibly detrimental to a living being, with instantly lethal results being one of the better possible outcomes), and allows for things like Ultra Space to follow many of the same rules. This also allows the official timeline to be correct without having to discount any of the games from it.

Leaving out my discussion of why the official timeline is kinda... not working with all of the games in the same bubble. It's not important XD

 

[nickdt]

In ORAS, you help creating Mr.Bonding and Mr.Bonding is in XY, which suggests they are in the same timeline. Another thing is that Looker appears too be a faller in ORAS, having lost his partner Pokemon and he appears in Kalos without a Pokemon. We know via Sina and Dexio that Kalos and Alola are in the same timeline, but with Wally and Cynthia also being there, despite not having visited Sinnoh, that means Gen 3 and ORAS as well as Sinnoh being on the same timeline, else Cynthia is a faller. And then i don't even speak about Red and Blue, we haven't visited Kanto in the Multiverse, thus Kanto is also in the same timeline as the other games (Else Red and Blue are fallers, which is impossible since they have retained their memories from the past). We have Colress.. which places Unova also on the same timeline, since if not, he also is a faller (Read: Red and Blue argument).

The only oddity is Johto, since no Johto character appears in SUMO and USUM, which can mean that Johto is the only region that has a different timeline.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

In ORAS, you help creating Mr.Bonding and Mr.Bonding is in XY, which suggests they are in the same timeline. Another thing is that Looker appears too be a faller in ORAS, having lost his partner Pokemon and he appears in Kalos without a Pokemon. We know via Sina and Dexio that Kalos and Alola are in the same timeline, but with Wally and Cynthia also being there, despite not having visited Sinnoh, that means Gen 3 and ORAS as well as Sinnoh being on the same timeline, else Cynthia is a faller. And then i don't even speak about Red and Blue, we haven't visited Kanto in the Multiverse, thus Kanto is also in the same timeline as the other games (Else Red and Blue are fallers, which is impossible since they have retained their memories from the past). We have Colress.. which places Unova also on the same timeline, since if not, he also is a faller (Read: Red and Blue argument).

The only oddity is Johto, since no Johto character appears in SUMO and USUM, which can mean that Johto is the only region that has a different timeline.

Well, we do have Red and Blue, if Kanto takes place in this timeline, Johto has to for sure, since all the Johto games are direct sequels to Kanto games, and Red is actually a Johto game NPC, since he's the PC in Kanto games. They both use teams based on their HGSS and BW2 teams as well.

You are entirely correct regarding ORAS's relationship to XY, like Midorikawa said, discrepancies are bound to happen and the timelines can't be perfect, having Megas be some "new" discovery in XY, only to have it be relatively mainstream in ORAS, is simply one of those oversights, also, can someone point to me how exactly Mega Evolution is "new"? Maybe it's being "newly" studied, just as Elm studied eggs, but that doesn't mean Pokemon JUST started laying eggs, they'd clearly been reproducing for as long as they've existed. I always considered that Mega Evolution was just a new field of study, there's a freakin' tower dedicated to Mega Evolution and it's been passed down in Korrina's family, clearly it's not "new" as some would like to put it. Perhaps in ORAS, the only reason it began becoming popular sooner is due to the frequent meteor showers that take place in Hoenn, not to mention the fact that this is further hinted at when more become available after the Delta Episode and you basically see them raining down from the sky.

 

[Midorikawa]

Well, we do have Red and Blue, if Kanto takes place in this timeline, Johto has to for sure, since all the Johto games are direct sequels to Kanto games, and Red is actually a Johto game NPC, since he's the PC in Kanto games. They both use teams based on their HGSS and BW2 teams as well.

You are entirely correct regarding ORAS's relationship to XY, like Midorikawa said, discrepancies are bound to happen and the timelines can't be perfect, having Megas be some "new" discovery in XY, only to have it be relatively mainstream in ORAS, is simply one of those oversights, also, can someone point to me how exactly Mega Evolution is "new"? Maybe it's being "newly" studied, just as Elm studied eggs, but that doesn't mean Pokemon JUST started laying eggs, they'd clearly been reproducing for as long as they've existed. I always considered that Mega Evolution was just a new field of study, there's a freakin' tower dedicated to Mega Evolution and it's been passed down in Korrina's family, clearly it's not "new" as some would like to put it. Perhaps in ORAS, the only reason it began becoming popular sooner is due to the frequent meteor showers that take place in Hoenn, not to mention the fact that this is further hinted at when more become available after the Delta Episode and you basically see them raining down from the sky.

It’s not new in XY. It’s just what the professor is studying. Korrinas family shows that it’s been around for a pretty long time. I doubt the e4 and champion suddenly started using it out of nowhere.

It did however originate in hoenn according to the delta episode which would make sense for it to be more known there as it’s more imbedded in their history. And I don’t think it was super popular anyways in ORAS. You still only have a few main characters using it.

One thing we have to remember is it isn’t always clear how old the professors are. But each one is studying something different. And we also need to make sure we don’t confuse the anime with the games.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

It’s not new in XY. It’s just what the professor is studying. Korrinas family shows that it’s been around for a pretty long time. I doubt the e4 and champion suddenly started using it out of nowhere.

It did however originate in hoenn according to the delta episode which would make sense for it to be more known there as it’s more imbedded in their history. And I don’t think it was super popular anyways in ORAS. You still only have a few main characters using it.

One thing we have to remember is it isn’t always clear how old the professors are. But each one is studying something different. And we also need to make sure we don’t confuse the anime with the games.

Yeah I just get tired of hearing such a crappy argument that "ORAS and XY are different universes because Megas are new in XY" when they're clearly not.