Unpopular Character Defense Thread

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I feel that Leon is an underappreciated Champion. People just get stuck up on him constantly bringing up his unbroken winning streak, but try to step into his shoes for a second: he's been undefeated since Day 1, and has been winning every single battle he's had for years. You try to stay humble or not get a bit of a swelled head in that kind of position. It's not as easy as it sounds. This is also why he's having trouble dealing with loss when he ultimately finally loses. He puts up a brave face in front of a huge crowd, but you can see from his expression that he doesn't take it we'll, and when you defeat him in a more private setting during the post-game, he doesn't put up such a brave face, showing that losing is clearly something he's not used to dealing with.

(A fun little detail, but his self-confidence even shows up in the optional capture tutorial, where he doesn't even feel the need to weaken the wild Pokémon before catching it, unlike it is with every other catching tutorial (aside from Let's Go for obvious reasons).)

Leon basically represents a grown-up player character. Think about it: he started his journey as a ten-year-old, won his way to the championship without losing once, has successfully defended his Champion status all this time, he uses some competitively viable Pokémon like Aegislash and the regional pseudo-legendary, his ace is a starter Pokémon, and he's finally brought down by the one type of character that can truly defeat a player character: another player character.

Unlike many Champions, Leon actually gets involved in the story. He is related to your main rival, gives you your starter, sends you off on your journey, and when the climax arrives, he doesn't get involved just because he feels like it; he sees it as his responsibility to do something. Just like a Champion should. It's only when he fails to stop the threat when the player steps in.

When it comes to battling, Leon definitely isn't just all talk. I'd actually argue he's one of the strongest Champions we've ever had. Even with the Exp. Share mechanic, as longer as you don't overfeed your team with Exp. Candies, it's very easy to be underleveled compared to his team by the time of the Champion battle. GF designed his levels well, and even his movesets contain a lot of good calls, like Haxorus having Iron Tail for Fairy types and Charizard having Max Overgrowth to deal with Water and Rock types. And as a nice gesture, he even takes in and raises the starter that you or Hop didn't choose to become a part of his Champion team. It's not often that all three starters get owners, and Leon is even the first Champion outside of Kanto whose team changes based on your starter choice.

And finally, unlike probably any other Champion, Leon actually has post-defeat character development. Instead of just being there to rematch you, he also sets up the Battle Tower and takes on a new career as its leader to continue having high-level Pokémon battles.

 

[RK9]

This is how I feel about them, along with Calem/Serena more or less accidentally guilt-tripping me. I felt like I was kicking a puppy after defeating them.

Honestly I like Serena and Calem but like, the reason I'm not fond of them as rivals is because they are heavily contradicting themselves. They want to beat you at every turn (Like Green), but whenever they encounter you or after they lose to you, they're all buddy-buddy with you.

I would appreciate them as rival a lot more if they just picked one of those sides or if they made it flow better. (As in, they have an internal tamptrum upon losing, they constantly look upset, and they contemplate that they do really want to be friends but they find it hard to do so cause they get beaten by you constantly.)

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

I feel that Leon is an underappreciated Champion. People just get stuck up on him constantly bringing up his unbroken winning streak, but try to step into his shoes for a second: he's been undefeated since Day 1, and has been winning every single battle he's had for years. You try to stay humble or not get a bit of a swelled head in that kind of position. It's not as easy as it sounds. This is also why he's having trouble dealing with loss when he ultimately finally loses. He puts up a brave face in front of a huge crowd, but you can see from his expression that he doesn't take it we'll, and when you defeat him in a more private setting during the post-game, he doesn't put up such a brave face, showing that losing is clearly something he's not used to dealing with.

(A fun little detail, but his self-confidence even shows up in the optional capture tutorial, where he doesn't even feel the need to weaken the wild Pokémon before catching it, unlike it is with every other catching tutorial (aside from Let's Go for obvious reasons).)

Leon basically represents a grown-up player character. Think about it: he started his journey as a ten-year-old, won his way to the championship without losing once, has successfully defended his Champion status all this time, he uses some competitively viable Pokémon like Aegislash and the regional pseudo-legendary, his ace is a starter Pokémon, and he's finally brought down by the one type of character that can truly defeat a player character: another player character.

Unlike many Champions, Leon actually gets involved in the story. He is related to your main rival, gives you your starter, sends you off on your journey, and when the climax arrives, he doesn't get involved just because he feels like it; he sees it as his responsibility to do something. Just like a Champion should. It's only when he fails to stop the threat when the player steps in.

When it comes to battling, Leon definitely isn't just all talk. I'd actually argue he's one of the strongest Champions we've ever had. Even with the Exp. Share mechanic, as longer as you don't overfeed your team with Exp. Candies, it's very easy to be underleveled compared to his team by the time of the Champion battle. GF designed his levels well, and even his movesets contain a lot of good calls, like Haxorus having Iron Tail for Fairy types and Charizard having Max Overgrowth to deal with Water and Rock types. And as a nice gesture, he even takes in and raises the starter that you or Hop didn't choose to become a part of his Champion team. It's not often that all three starters get owners, and Leon is even the first Champion outside of Kanto whose team changes based on your starter choice.

And finally, unlike probably any other Champion, Leon actually has post-defeat character development. Instead of just being there to rematch you, he also sets up the Battle Tower and takes on a new career as its leader to continue having high-level Pokémon battles.

Oh! And I completely forgot to mention the nice detail in his battle theme! It contains remixed bits of the Hall of Fame theme, because Leon and everyone else is sure that he's going to win, like he's done every time before. For him and the audience, it's not about will he win or not, but how he's going to win. That just makes it all the more fitting for Leon.

 

[prog rocker]

Oh! And I completely forgot to mention the nice detail in his battle theme! It contains remixed bits of the Hall of Fame theme, because Leon and everyone else is sure that he's going to win, like he's done every time before. For him and the audience, it's not about will he win or not, but how he's going to win. That just gives the theme so much personality.

This kinda reminds me of the time I noticed the Aether theme in the middle of Team Skull's. I know that by that part everyone knew Aether was evil, but then again, we were genre savvy enough to the point they didn't even bother to cover that once the game came out.

 

[Poke Dragon]

This also reminded me how Bede's theme has part of a remix of the Pokemon World Tournament final battle.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

This also reminded me how Bede's theme has part of a remix of the Pokemon World Tournament final battle.

That sort of remixing isn't unheard of at all. But mixing bits of tracks from the game into another tracks in the same game to deliver a subtle hint or reference is a whole different thing.

 

[Esserise]

I know Team Skull's theme snags a bit from the Kanto Trainer battle theme but where does the Aether part come in?

 

[prog rocker]

I know Team Skull's theme snags a bit from the Kanto Trainer battle theme but where does the Aether part come in?

I don't know exactly at what time, but I hear part of the first notes of the Aether theme after a while and then goes back to the normal theme. Or maybe that was just Guzma/Plumeria's version of the theme? I need to replay the games soon.

EDIT: It was in Guzma's theme. Go to 0:53 to hear the part.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I actually really like Trace, the rival from the Let's Go games. While he isn't anything to write home about, I just found him to be pretty likable and endearing. He actually does feel like a friend and seeing him take the Cubone from Lavender Town as part of him team was really sweet. It might also help that I don't like Blue, so seeing his role be replaced with a more friendly rival was fine for me. Aside from Silver and arguably N, I don't think that there are too many standout jerk rivals and even then, N is more of an antagonist initially than the traditional jerk rival. There is Bede, but I'm still not sure how I feel about him. His condescending attitude bugged me a lot, but I kind of liked where his story went after he was disowned. I'm just not sure if I like Bede or just his overall storyline. Hop, Hau and Bianca are examples of how to do friendly rivals extremely well, while Trace is a bit more standard since he doesn't have much of his own storyline. Despite that, he was still pretty fun and likable.

 

[prog rocker]

I actually really like Trace, the rival from the Let's Go games. While he isn't anything to write home about, I just found him to be pretty likable and endearing. He actually does feel like a friend and seeing him take the Cubone from Lavender Town as part of him team was really sweet. It might also help that I don't like Blue, so seeing his role be replaced with a more friendly rival was fine for me. Aside from Silver and arguably N, I don't think that there are too many standout jerk rivals and even then, N is more of an antagonist initially than the traditional jerk rival. There is Bede, but I'm still not sure how I feel about him. His condescending attitude bugged me a lot, but I kind of liked where his story went after he was disowned. I'm just not sure if I like Bede or just his overall storyline. Hop, Hau and Bianca are examples of how to do friendly rivals extremely well, while Trace is a bit more standard since he doesn't have much of his own storyline. Despite that, he was still pretty fun and likable.

I don't think N was a jerk at all, or at least it didn't sound like that to me. Maybe towards Prof. Juniper and before the final battle, but that last one can be debatable.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't think N was a jerk at all, or at least it didn't sound like that to me. Maybe towards Prof. Juniper and before the final battle, but that last one can be debatable.

He was more of antagonist than a flat out jerk like Blue and Silver were, but I wasn't sure if people kind of put him in a similar group due to not being the more traditionally friendly and upbeat kind of rival.

 

[prog rocker]

He was more of antagonist than a flat out jerk like Blue and Silver were, but I wasn't sure if people kind of put him in a similar group due to not being the more traditionally friendly and upbeat kind of rival.

I wouldn't put him in the jerk rival category, but I do agree that he's an antagonist, and a rare non-villain example (has there been any other example in the other games, main or otherwise?)

 

[RK9]

I wouldn't even brand N as a straight up antagonist. Ghetsis takes that role. N is more of an anti-villain.

 

[prog rocker]

I wouldn't even brand N as a straight up antagonist. Ghetsis takes that role. N is more of an anti-villain.

Well, antagonist doesn't mean he's a villain. It just means that he opposes you, which fits him.

 

[colours]

i have two in particular:

1) people give hau a lot of shit for being kind of a one-dimensional rival. he really only cares about having fun and that's it. he has some sort of vision of being a good pokemon trainer like hala and that's about the most that we can get out of him as far as aspirations go. at the same time though, i feel like his simplicity and tunnel-vision towards having fun in pokemon battling is perhaps the best part of him. he doesn't take it too much to heart except when you beat him in a champion rematch, but ultimately, pokemon is really a game to him. perhaps i just personally like his overall carefree personality. he's much more absorbed in the experience of battling than anything else and i think that's an admirable trait. i dunno, i don't need hau to have some sort of super deep story to like him, i kinda like him the way he is.

2) i similarly feel people give hop a LOT of grief for being "galarian hau" which is inaccurate in every way to anyone that has ever even remotely paid attention to the story in sm/usum. he's more like barry in the sense that he's hyper competitive and laser focused on beating you, the player, to the point where he kind of takes it the extreme at times and swaps out members of his own team doing whatever it takes to be the best. to hop, for a period in the game, he was really of the mindset that the end justifies the means. this is completely the opposite of how hau's attitude is and how he views pokemon battling. regardless though, i feel hope is really underrated as a character because his depth actually adds something to his character. the fact that he catches a legendary adds something to his character, it's the first time we've seen a rival (to my knowledge) catch a main cover legendary and actively use it against the player and even uses it against the player in the post-game as a permanent member of his team.

so ye there's that

 

[RK9]

i similarly feel people give hop a LOT of grief for being "galarian hau" which is inaccurate in every way to anyone that has ever even remotely paid attention to the story in sm/usum.

I always laugh at this. Hop is so much more better written. Hop is a really well written rival. Seems everyone just skips the text and the hates he gets for battling you constantly is hypocritical as well cause everyone loved it when Blue did it.

Also, it's safer to say Hau is Alolan Hop. A very discount one as well.

 

[colours]

I always laugh at this. Hop is so much more better written. Hop is a really well written rival. Seems everyone just skips the text and the hates he gets for battling you constantly is hypocritical as well cause everyone loved it when Blue did it.

Also, it's safer to say Hau is Alolan Hop. A very discount one as well.

exactly! i think hop gets caught in the crossfire of the swsh hate. there's a lot of legitimate criticisms to be had about the games themselves (that's probably for another thread), but i also hop is one of the things game freak did really well as far as his inclusion in the story and his personality/aspirations for that matter. this sounds silly, but i feel attached to hau and feel kinda bad every time i beat him because it feels like i'm the villain just quashing the poor guy's dreams of facing his brother in a climatic championship match.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

1) people give hau a lot of shit for being kind of a one-dimensional rival. he really only cares about having fun and that's it. he has some sort of vision of being a good pokemon trainer like hala and that's about the most that we can get out of him as far as aspirations go. at the same time though, i feel like his simplicity and tunnel-vision towards having fun in pokemon battling is perhaps the best part of him. he doesn't take it too much to heart except when you beat him in a champion rematch, but ultimately, pokemon is really a game to him. perhaps i just personally like his overall carefree personality. he's much more absorbed in the experience of battling than anything else and i think that's an admirable trait. i dunno, i don't need hau to have some sort of super deep story to like him, i kinda like him the way he is.

That's how he's written in SM. He's written a bit differently in USUM, where he puts more emphasis into winning, getting stronger, and overall being a better rival, while still also retaining some of his more carefree attitude.

I always laugh at this. Hop is so much more better written. Hop is a really well written rival. Seems everyone just skips the text and the hates he gets for battling you constantly is hypocritical as well cause everyone loved it when Blue did it.

Also, it's safer to say Hau is Alolan Hop. A very discount one as well.

Hop is such an underrated rival. Fortunately, I've also seen some defense for him online:

Spoiler

 

[Hidden Mew]

i have two in particular:

1) people give hau a lot of shit for being kind of a one-dimensional rival. he really only cares about having fun and that's it. he has some sort of vision of being a good pokemon trainer like hala and that's about the most that we can get out of him as far as aspirations go. at the same time though, i feel like his simplicity and tunnel-vision towards having fun in pokemon battling is perhaps the best part of him. he doesn't take it too much to heart except when you beat him in a champion rematch, but ultimately, pokemon is really a game to him. perhaps i just personally like his overall carefree personality. he's much more absorbed in the experience of battling than anything else and i think that's an admirable trait. i dunno, i don't need hau to have some sort of super deep story to like him, i kinda like him the way he is.

I never really thought of Hau being one dimensional. I can kind of see it with Sun/Moon, but even then, he never came off as bland or boring to me. He was just upbeat, friendly and always up for a battle. I do think that US/UM helps to make him more interesting. The realization that you can't afford to lose some battles had a deeper or at least clearer effect on his personality. The small changes in US/UM felt much more meaningful to me than the bigger changes, even though the Necromza battle was still pretty awesome. The details they added in for Hau and Guzma made me like them even more and helped to flesh out their personalities more. Even though I think Hop is much better written from the start, I still like Hau and he's still a good example of how to make a friendly rival work in my opinion.

2) i similarly feel people give hop a LOT of grief for being "galarian hau" which is inaccurate in every way to anyone that has ever even remotely paid attention to the story in sm/usum. he's more like barry in the sense that he's hyper competitive and laser focused on beating you, the player, to the point where he kind of takes it the extreme at times and swaps out members of his own team doing whatever it takes to be the best. to hop, for a period in the game, he was really of the mindset that the end justifies the means. this is completely the opposite of how hau's attitude is and how he views pokemon battling. regardless though, i feel hope is really underrated as a character because his depth actually adds something to his character. the fact that he catches a legendary adds something to his character, it's the first time we've seen a rival (to my knowledge) catch a main cover legendary and actively use it against the player and even uses it against the player in the post-game as a permanent member of his team.

so ye there's that

I really have no idea how people could play through Sword/Shield and just see Hop as Galarian Hau. If anything, he's really the polar opposite of Hau in a lot of ways. Losing didn't really affect Hau until he loses to you as the Champion, but losing had a major effect on Hop. It was arguably an issue for him from the start, considering his reaction upon losing, but it definitely was affecting him starting with his lost to Bede. That was a major turning point for Hop. He reflected on his strength, how he didn't want to make Leon look worse by being weak and he was trying to figure out what team would work best for him. Effectively taking his first Pokemon out of his team was really telling. He still had the starter Pokemon he got from Leon, but Dubwool was his first Pokemon and taking it out of his team for awhile showed just how those losses were affecting him. Hop's conflict was all about trying to become stronger, realizing that he wouldn't be able to defeat the player character or Leon and then trying to figure out a new dream from there. Hau's turning point was fairly late in the game when you go to the Aether Foundation and his storyline boiled down to having to take battling a bit more seriously.

I think that people were too focused in on Hop being another friendly rival to realize that he isn't just friendly with the player character. Although, I don't know if Bede being a more of a jerk rival makes him more popular by comparison, but Hop is easily one of the best written rivals in the franchise. I like Hau, but I think that Hop is a much more engaging and well written character from the start. I still hope that the DLC will include more scenes for the other rivals. I'd love to see Hop more interacting with his Legendary Pokemon and just seeing how he is taking to his research work.

 

[Daren]

Hop is a bit unusual in that his arc sort of feels like what I'd expect to see from a protagonist--except he isn't the protagonist. I recall some similar complaints about the partner in Super Mystery Dungeon, actually, though it wasn't to the same level as Hop. I saw similar comments for Sun/Moon that Lillie was the protagonist while the player was just muscle. A lot of this is the consequence of them trying to put more story in the games while leaving the protagonist as not just silent but pretty much devoid of personality.

Hop's odd psuedo protagonist status ends in his story being unusual for a recurring boss; he gets a big shakeup that causes him to doubt himself, struggles for a long time (even into the postgame), and ultimately switches tracks to a new goal. He ultimately never surpasses his brother or even defeats his overpowered rival.
...wait, despite his growth and development he never beats that rival who keeps defeating him? The main character in Sw/Sh is Alain.

Honestly I found Hop more believable than Blue constantly losing then brushing everything off while boasting their superiority, even having the self delusion to be shocked when he loses for the eighth time in a row at the League HQ after he somehow found about a hundred Rare Candies on the way through Victory Road.