Updating Johto Pokemon

[PkmnTrainerV]

Am I the only one that doesn’t want Typhlosion to gain a second type of itever mega evolves? Like, it’s our ONLY pure fire-type starter. And pure fire isn’t a bad type. I’d rather it keep that uniqueness. But maybe that’s just me.

Typhlosion is one of my favourite Fire starters, but it pales in comparison to the other starters, specially Charizard since GameFreak gave it Charizard's exact base stats with no secondary type.
It is debatably the least viable Fire starter, and a secondary type with appropriate alterations would make it shine.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

Typhlosion is one of my favourite Fire starters, but it pales in comparison to the other starters, specially Charizard since GameFreak gave it Charizard's exact base stats with no secondary type.
It is debatably the least viable Fire starter, and a secondary type with appropriate alterations would make it shine.

It’s one of my favorites too. I’m just saying, I think pure fire fits it best. I don’t see any other type added other than the “fancy type combo” mindset. Fire/electric, mentioned above, makes literally no sense. They’d have to drastically design it around some new theme for something like that to work.

As for how it performs competitively, idk. Give it a ton of speed and basically make it a more special-specialized arcanine. Arcanine does well for a pure fire Pokémon. Fire has actually become one of the more defensive types, indirectly thanks to fairy.

 

[Icy Wind]

The main thing Typhlosion needs imo is a better movepool. As it stands it’s movepool is pitiful, mostly just Fire, Focus Blast and Extransensory for coverage, making it rather predictable.

Give it Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, just anything for better coverage.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

The main thing Typhlosion needs imo is a better movepool. As it stands it’s movepool is pitiful, mostly just Fire, Focus Blast and Extransensory for coverage, making it rather predictable.

Give it Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, just anything for better coverage.

I completely agree.

Not sure it would be useful competitively, but I could see in the future them giving it steam eruption. Honestly I’m confused why it doesn’t already have scald. Also, energy ball? Solar beam is just terrible cuz of the charge time.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

As for how it performs competitively, idk. Give it a ton of speed and basically make it a more special-specialized arcanine. Arcanine does well for a pure fire Pokémon.

It gets outclassed by again... Mega Charizard Y, which has the added advantage of setting up Sun with it.

Fire has actually become one of the more defensive types, indirectly thanks to fairy.

Typhlosion's main gimmick is going on a killing spree with a fast full-hp Eruption. A more defensive build will throw its only stratedgy out of the window.

As for Fire/Electric, the logic was Typhlosion rubbing its fur to produce static electricity, which is more substantial logic than... say Mewtwo gaining Fighting Type, Ampharos gaining dragon and so on.

If not for a mega, just give it a better Moveset with earth power, and Thunderbolt. I always advocated giving it Steam Eruption and Scald too.

 

[Envoy]

Am I the only one that doesn’t want Typhlosion to gain a second type of itever mega evolves? Like, it’s our ONLY pure fire-type starter. And pure fire isn’t a bad type. I’d rather it keep that uniqueness. But maybe that’s just me.

Water/dragon Feraligatr just makes sense, I don’t think anyone argues against that.

I, personally, think all the Johto Starters should remain mono-type. I think it makes them unique, plus I think it's a clearer way to help new players understand the type chart (which is one of the major things Starters are meant to do.) In fact, I'll go so far as to say we need more mono-type Starter sets. Not every set of Starters, but at least one or two more. In fact, I will go so far as to say that Fire Starters in particular need to be mono-type for the next two or three Generations. How many mono-type Water and Grass Starters do we have? I'd rather have more mono-type Fire Starters than another Fire/Fighting Starter.

Unfortunately, the Johto Starters in particular are arguably the weakest set of Starters, and giving them Mega Evolutions with dual-types is a feasible way to both improve upon their strengths while maintaining their base forms pure-types.

Having said that, I am more than open to hearing ideas for a mono-type Mega Typhlosion (or Meganium or Feraligatr) that could still make them competitively viable.

 

[Matleo]

A problem with a lot of your ideas for buffs is that they're too situational.

but abilities that only boost attack power or stats get boring in my opion at some point.

-p.s more moves should remove terrains; Eruption would be a perfect candidate for that.
Earth Power, Surf, Incinerate?

I, personally, think all the Johto Starters should remain mono-type. I think it makes them unique, plus I think it's a clearer way to help new players understand the type chart (which is one of the major things Starters are meant to do.) In fact, I'll go so far as to say we need more mono-type Starter sets. Not every set of Starters, but at least one or two more. In fact, I will go so far as to say that Fire Starters in particular need to be mono-type for the next two or three Generations. How many mono-type Water and Grass Starters do we have? I'd rather have more mono-type Fire Starters than another Fire/Fighting Starter.

Unfortunately, the Johto Starters in particular are arguably the weakest set of Starters, and giving them Mega Evolutions with dual-types is a feasible way to both improve upon their strengths while maintaining their base forms pure-types.

Having said that, I am more than open to hearing ideas for a mono-type Mega Typhlosion (or Meganium or Feraligatr) that could still make them competitively viable.

Im not for mono-type starters anymore, we had so many mono, that people got enough of it like of 3 fire/fighting in a row...
No one likes spaming what you already have, plus many mono types already are in higj competition in stats and niche wise thats why we need gimmick and good abilities.

Imagine slow and defensive mono-types? thats what will be left and probably many would get upset and unhappy afterwards.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

but abilities that only boost attack power or stats get boring in my opion at some point.

That doesn’t mean that you slap a defensive ability on a speedy attacker, though.
Typhlosion isn’t the Pokemon which benefits from a defensive ability.

 

[Matleo]

That doesn’t mean that you slap a defensive ability on a speedy attacker, though.
Typhlosion isn’t the Pokemon which benefits from a defensive ability.

Mega Sceptile? Lighting rod? defensive , immunity and status boost.

Bu I dont see Typhlosion with Motor Drive.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Lightning Rod benefits Mega Sceptile offensively because it raises its special attack and makes it harder to paralyse. (Body Slam and Glare can still paralyse it.)

Im not for mono-type starters anymore, we had so many mono, that people got enough of it like of 3 fire/fighting in a row...

There were only four monotype fully-evolved starters before the first Fire/Fighting starters. What point are you trying to make...?

 

[Matleo]

There were only four monotype fully-evolved starters before the first Fire/Fighting starters. What point are you trying to make...?

yes preevos.
ok we could discuss what status redistrybutions would the new monotypes need but how would they interact or steal the niches with all fire pokemon, not only other starters?

Taking Sceptile, Serperior and Meganium
Taking Feraligatr, Blastoise and Sammuotr

Now take Charizard and Typhlosion , both with same stats actually and rather fast.
If we would get more then some would be slow defensive mon and thats where a secondary typing and immunities could play a good role when there would be lack of speed.
(fairy, steel, ghost)
Do You get why I think now?

 

[Kung Fu Ferret]

Mega Johto starters need to happen



Mega Meganium (Grass/Poison with serene grace)
Mega Typhlosion (Fire/Ground with Competitive)
Mega Feraligatr (Water/Dragon with Drizzle)

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Mega Meganium (Grass/Poison with serene grace)
Mega Typhlosion (Fire/Ground with Competitive)
Mega Feraligatr (Water/Dragon with Drizzle)

Well... if anyone cares about balance among the starters this isn’t the way to go...
Typhlosion is now doubly weak to Feraligatr and isn’t no longer resistant to Meganium's Grass moves.
Meganium can no longer use SE hits on Feraligatr.

Feraligatr ends up having an edge on both of its counterparts with Typhlosion being at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Icy Wind]

Not everything about the starters should be “balanced” you know.

Something like mega evolution typing shouldn’t be affected by some arbitrary “balancing”.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

Not everything about the starters should be “balanced” you know.

Something like mega evolution typing shouldn’t be affected by some arbitrary “balancing”.

I agree. Giving a starter a mega evolution should help balance them as a Pokémon, not as a set.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Yeah. Personal preferences of mine aside, GameFreak hasn’t really cared for balance among Mega Starter trios: Charizard having two Megas begins the biggest example.

Here is an idea for Mega Meganium. I'll do Feraligatr later.

Mega Meganium
Type: Grass/Fairy
Ability: Triage
Moveset Additions: Moonblast, Draining Kiss, Earth Power

I think most of the mega evolution stat boosts should go to special attack and sp. defence with possibly some points taken from speed and/or attack and added to defence.
It will make Meganium even more effective at its defensive roles and combined with toxic could work as an option for stall.

 

[Envoy]

Yeah. Personal preferences of mine aside, GameFreak hasn’t really cared for balance among Mega Starter trios: Charizard having two Megas begins the biggest example.

Here is an idea for Mega Meganium. I'll do Feraligatr later.

Mega Meganium
Type: Grass/Fairy
Ability: Triage
Moveset Additions: Moonblast, Draining Kiss, Earth Power

I think most of the mega evolution stat boosts should go to special attack and sp. defence with possibly some points taken from speed and/or attack and added to defence.
It will make Meganium even more effective at its defensive roles and combined with toxic could work as an option for stall.

I think I had a similar idea for Mega Meganium that I shared earlier. I had given her Multiscale to boost her defensive prowess further, but Triage would also work well in tandem with Giga Drain and Synthesis.

My idea was to make Mega Meganium sort of the polar opposite to Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur focuses primarily on Physical Defense and Special Attack with Special Defense being its tertiary stat. I figured Meganium could then focus on Special Defense and Attack with Defense being its tertiary stat. Hence why I gave her Play Rough. Meganium already gets compared unfavorably to Venusaur and, as a fan of both, I was thinking of having them each carve a different niche so they could serve different purposes on different teams and not cannibalize each other. I will agree, however, that a Special Attack boost would perhaps fit Meganium a bit better. Still, I don't see a huge difference between buffing her attack + Play Rough and boosting her Sp. Atk + Moonblast.

Either way, we both agree that she should get Earth Power. Perhaps also Stun Spore? She already gets Poison Powder, so Stun Spore wouldn't be too out of character. I'd argue in favor of Sleep Powder as well, but so many things already get Sleep Powder that I think it would be better for her to get a move that doesn't see such tough competition (Venu again, Tangrowth, Tangela, Vileplume/Bellossom/Jumpluff in the lower tiers.)

This hypothetical version of Meganium would then be in direct competition with Whimsicott, who has Prankster + not expending a Mega Stone over Meganium, but Meganium would have higher stats + more offensive movepool + more bulk (Multiscale) OR more survivability (Triage.)

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I think I had a similar idea for Mega Meganium that I shared earlier. I had given her Multiscale to boost her defensive prowess further, but Triage would also work well in tandem with Giga Drain and Synthesis.

My idea was to make Mega Meganium sort of the polar opposite to Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur focuses primarily on Physical Defense and Special Attack with Special Defense being its tertiary stat. I figured Meganium could then focus on Special Defense and Attack with Defense being its tertiary stat. Hence why I gave her Play Rough. Meganium already gets compared unfavorably to Venusaur and, as a fan of both, I was thinking of having them each carve a different niche so they could serve different purposes on different teams and not cannibalize each other. I will agree, however, that a Special Attack boost would perhaps fit Meganium a bit better. Still, I don't see a huge difference between buffing her attack + Play Rough and boosting her Sp. Atk + Moonblast.

Either way, we both agree that she should get Earth Power. Perhaps also Stun Spore? She already gets Poison Powder, so Stun Spore wouldn't be too out of character. I'd argue in favor of Sleep Powder as well, but so many things already get Sleep Powder that I think it would be better for her to get a move that doesn't see such tough competition (Venu again, Tangrowth, Tangela, Vileplume/Bellossom/Jumpluff in the lower tiers.)

This hypothetical version of Meganium would then be in direct competition with Whimsicott, who has Prankster + not expending a Mega Stone over Meganium, but Meganium would have higher stats + more offensive movepool + more bulk (Multiscale) OR more survivability (Triage.)

A physical Meganium + Multiscale will run into issues as it cannot use Giga drain for recovery anymore, leaving synthesis as it’s only reliable recovery, and Multiscale requires full HP, which would result in Meganium leaving its opponent unharmed while takes a turn or two to restore HP to activate Multiscale.

Triage gives priority to Giga drain, so it also gives Meganium an indirect speed boost since Giga Drain is its primary STAB currently.

A great sp. Atk. stat + priority Giga drain + bulky build would work great for Meganium. The fact that Grass tends to have better options for special attackers also helps.

 

[Envoy]

A physical Meganium + Multiscale will run into issues as it cannot use Giga drain for recovery anymore, leaving synthesis as it’s only reliable recovery, and Multiscale requires full HP, which would result in Meganium leaving its opponent unharmed while takes a turn or two to restore HP to activate Multiscale.

Triage gives priority to Giga drain, so it also gives Meganium an indirect speed boost since Giga Drain is its primary STAB currently.

A great sp. Atk. stat + priority Giga drain + bulky build would work great for Meganium. The fact that Grass tends to have better options for special attackers also helps.

Fair, and to your point, the only Physical Grass type draining move is Horn Leech, which Meganium should not logically have access to. I will say that Mulitscale Dragonite works out quite well even without a consistent draining move (most bulky variants use Roost.) But, to be fair, Meganium is a long way away from being Dragonite.

So perhaps you're onto something when you recommend a fully special Meganium (though I'm still concerned about facing competition from Venusaur.) Multiscale and Triage would both work out well for her as abilities and Moonblast could give her a consistent Fairy STAB. I would imagine that, regardless of Ability, the standard Meganium set would look something like:

Meganium@Meganiumite
Ability: Multiscale/Triage
252 HP/252 SDef/6 SAtk
-Giga Drain
-Moonblast
-Synthesis
-Earth Power


The alternative would be to take Mega Meganium in a completely different direction from vanilla Meganium (think of Mega Blastoise vis-a-vis Blastoise) and attempt to make her an offensive Pokemon. To this end, a Physical Meganium with an ability like Moxie or Intimidate and Movepool additions like Power Whip and Play Rough would make for an...interesting Pokemon, if nothing else.

Something like +50 Atk (base 152,) + 50 Speed (base 130) and a set similar to this:

Meganium@Meganiumite
Ability: Moxie/Intimidate
6 HP/252 Atk/252 SPe
-Swords Dance
-Power Whip
-Play Rough
-Earthquake

Might be surprisingly effective with a Grass/Fairy dual type and 80/152/100/83/100/130 stats.

 

[Foxwarrior]

Evolutions will be the best way to up Johto Pokemon, as they can be usable with eviolite and also will gain a new stage.


It seems that Gamefreak regrets megas and it wont make a come back so early (though its an awesome feature to add in remakes, and its the only way to up the starters, so who knows...). imo alternate forms should be exclusive to gen 7, I don't think they ganing another type and redesign can be considered an "up", as it's not exactly the same Pokemon anymore.