US/UM Trailers and News Discussion

[Mitchman]

Yeah, fully explain UBs in USUM, treat em as legendaries, as in do not have em all in every game going forward, but do introduce new ultra beasts down the line that may come with their own little story or what not. What really should be asked, are fallers going to carry forward each gen acting as a background lore plot?

 

[Silktree]

Because of their stats, obviously. The lore is irrelevant when it comes to the metagame.

And asking for Fallers to be a staple is asking for the concept to be worn out.

 

[dCraw]

I’m pretty sure UBs aren’t Legendary Pokemon aside from the Cosmog line and Necrozma. There isn’t a real legend around most of them; they’re simply extra-dimensional Pokémon. I don’t understand why everyone views them as legendaries…

Base stat total, cant breed them, dont appear in the wild. All matches legendary Pokémon

 

[Tuoko]

I’m pretty sure UBs aren’t Legendary Pokemon aside from the Cosmog line and Necrozma. There isn’t a real legend around most of them; they’re simply extra-dimensional Pokémon. I don’t understand why everyone views them as legendaries…

The games' coding lists the first 7 as sub-legends along with the minor trios, Lati@s, Heatran, Cresselia, Regigigas, Type: Null line, and the Tapus. Aside from that, they and the UBs share the same background in the RotomDex and the GTS excludes UBs when you select to exclude legends.

They are obtained in limited numbers per playthrough, though Phione is so far the only one to break that as well. I brought up Phione because the games consider it a legend as well. So far, the "rules" as to what makes something a legend has been broken, and they were never established as actual rules.

That said, I do hope USUM treats the current UBs as legends, and with Adhesive, it's possible they'll make UBs that aren't considered as legends in-game. Though that wouldn't really help what fans see the first 7 as.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Base stat total, cant breed them, dont appear in the wild. All matches legendary Pokémon

The third part (don’t appear in the wild) is very likely to change in USUM since we're going to visit the different Ultra Spaces.

 

[Kallyle]

Base stat total, cant breed them, dont appear in the wild. All matches legendary Pokémon

The games' coding lists the first 7 as sub-legends along with the minor trios, Lati@s, Heatran, Cresselia, Regigigas, Type: Null line, and the Tapus. Aside from that, they and the UBs share the same background in the RotomDex and the GTS excludes UBs when you select to exclude legends.

They are obtained in limited numbers per playthrough, though Phione is so far the only one to break that as well. I brought up Phione because the games consider it a legend as well. So far, the "rules" as to what makes something a legend has been broken, and they were never established as actual rules.

That said, I do hope USUM treats the current UBs as legends, and with Adhesive, it's possible they'll make UBs that aren't considered as legends in-game. Though that wouldn't really help what fans see the first 7 as.

Thank you guys for that little bit of trivia. I understand it more now! to be honest, I don't like how Game Freak has classified Ultra Beasts as legendaries: I was personally hoping they'd just be counted as their own thing altogether. However, this doesn't necessarily put tan end to the Ultra Beasts just because they're currently counted as sub-legends, and there is still a ton of potential for this concept. Currently, we have the Legendary Ultra Beasts (Cosmog line and Necrozma), the sub-legend UBs (the ones currently available or revealed). We're still missing the following franchise staples from Ultra Space:

• Early common mammal
• Early common bird
• Pikaclone
• UBs that can evolve (other than Nebby)
• One or more UlBs revolving around a gimmick of some sort
• Pseudo-legend
• Mythical

I doubt Game Freak would explore these, but there is still a bit more that can be done with the Ultra Beast concept than just leaving them as the sub-legends for Alola. The concept allows Game Freak to come up with create designs for Lovecraftian creatures and bizarre alien biology. In fact, I remember there being an interview where it was said that the purpose of Ultra Beasts were to push the boundaries of what a Pokémon could be.

 

[dCraw]

The third part (don’t appear in the wild) is very likely to change in USUM since we're going to visit the different Ultra Spaces.

I wonder if they'll appear in the wild or be like static legendaries. They seem to greet you (in phermosa and buzzwoles case) further proving their legendary-like status

 

[Bolt Strike]

If Game Freak really wanted to run with the concept of Ultra Space being a parallel world, they should've made it like a ALttP/ALBW/Metroid Prime 2 type of scenario, where we explore an entire mirror region of Ultra Space instead of what looks like a handful of linear pathways leading to UBs. That would have a lot of potential to be a legitimately exciting game. I've always liked those sorts of games, even though it's essentially copy/pasting the level design and changing the aesthetics, exploring the alternate world still feels unique because the same areas are shown in a new light, having the same areas shown with a new environment (maybe a grassy area dries up and becomes a desert, maybe a mountainous area heats up and becomes a volcano, etc.), taking on a new role (trial sites in Alola could just be regular dungeons in Ultra Space, inconspicuous areas in Alola could be UB habitats in Ultra Space, etc.), or just explored in a different order really makes them feel like a new experience. Portal jumping also makes for fun puzzles and a good way to hide secrets. Sadly Game Freak doesn't seem to like making regions fun to explore lately.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I hope adhesive can evolve, but I don’t think we'll get pseudo legend UB since UBs already have high enough BSTs. A mythical one is possible though (looking at you, the light creature on the boxart).

 

[Esserise]

Thank you guys for that little bit of trivia. I understand it more now! to be honest, I don't like how Game Freak has classified Ultra Beasts as legendaries: I was personally hoping they'd just be counted as their own thing altogether. However, this doesn't necessarily put tan end to the Ultra Beasts just because they're currently counted as sub-legends, and there is still a ton of potential for this concept.

Just ftr the “sub-legendary” thing is ultimately an internal categorization list, it doesn’t necessarily have any bearing on in-game lore. I mean it’s not as if they’re actually about to start using the term “sub-legend” in actual dialogue, and they could have, at any time, used the words “Legendary Pokémon” to describe the tapu, the UBs, and Silvally, but they never did, despite the term being used elsewhere in the game to refer to Nebby’s evolutions and Zapdos (who if we’re to go by that list is actually not a “Legendary Pokémon” but a “sub-legendary”). Is that not conspicuous, especially considering that they’ve never not referred to Legendary Pokémon as “Legendary Pokémon” before?

Personally, I think it’s obvious that “Legendary” just means a different thing depending on whether you’re talking about the story or the gameplay. It’s all in the context.

 

[Cute Charm]

If Game Freak really wanted to run with the concept of Ultra Space being a parallel world, they should've made it like a ALttP/ALBW/Metroid Prime 2 type of scenario, where we explore an entire mirror region of Ultra Space instead of what looks like a handful of linear pathways leading to UBs. That would have a lot of potential to be a legitimately exciting game. I've always liked those sorts of games, even though it's essentially copy/pasting the level design and changing the aesthetics, exploring the alternate world still feels unique because the same areas are shown in a new light, having the same areas shown with a new environment (maybe a grassy area dries up and becomes a desert, maybe a mountainous area heats up and becomes a volcano, etc.), taking on a new role (trial sites in Alola could just be regular dungeons in Ultra Space, inconspicuous areas in Alola could be UB habitats in Ultra Space, etc.), or just explored in a different order really makes them feel like a new experience. Portal jumping also makes for fun puzzles and a good way to hide secrets. Sadly Game Freak doesn't seem to like making regions fun to explore lately.

The UB's respective ultra spaces seem to be pocket dimentions where colonies of ultra beasts live. They're pretty much distortion world, but expanded upon. Ultra Megalopolis seems to be the exception and it's like Black City but actually tied to the story.

Either way, they don't seem like they're meant to be full on alternate dimensions. That's because they're inside a game that is meant as a mirror world to the original Sun and Moon. It's a carbon copy with many minor changes (almost all of which are currently unknown other than the Retcon Squad, Necrozma focus, photo clubs in the empty lots, Mina's trial, David being a substitute trial captain (?), new UBs, and some various subtle hinting from the dialog from the Japanese trailer.) but they're two diffrent sets of games that cannot crossover.

So in a way they did do the LttP thing but split the games up instead of having both realities in the same game. Leaving you, as the player, being the one to meta-ly crossover like it has been since the confirmation of the multiverse theory in ORAS instead of the PC themselves.

That's just my two cents.

 

[Bolt Strike]

The UB's respective ultra spaces seem to be pocket dimentions where colonies of ultra beasts live. They're pretty much distortion world, but expanded upon. Ultra Megalopolis seems to be the exception and it's like Black City but actually tied to the story.

Either way, they don't seem like they're meant to be full on alternate dimensions. That's because they're inside a game that is meant as a mirror world to the original Sun and Moon. It's a carbon copy with many minor changes (almost all of which are currently unknown other than the Retcon Squad, Necrozma focus, photo clubs in the empty lots, Mina's trial, David being a substitute trial captain (?), new UBs, and some various subtle hinting from the dialog from the Japanese trailer.) but they're two diffrent sets of games that cannot crossover.

So in a way they did do the LttP thing but split the games up instead of having both realities in the same game. Leaving you, as the player, being the one to meta-ly crossover like it has been since the confirmation of the multiverse theory in ORAS instead of the PC themselves.

That's just my two cents.

That's not really doing LttP style gameplay. LttP style gameplay is when you have two mirror worlds in one game that you can jump between at will. USUM is not a mirror world, it's a remastered version. You have identical events that play out the same way as they did in the original and some extra content, not similarly designed areas with different environmental aesthetics that have been repurposed. We've never seen a Pokemon game like the latter.

Also, even if the pocket dimension route is how they want to play it, they could still execute it better than just having a bunch of linear pathways. Making them more like dungeons would serve that purpose better. It's their refusal to make complex map designs that's really holding this idea back.

 

[Silktree]

The latest trailer made things more interesting, but not by much.

 

[TouyaShiro]

I don’t understand why everyone views them as legendaries…

Because of their stats, obviously.

They're highly specialised in a majority of cases, yes, but their total's also less than the typical VGC-legal Legendary at 570 (not to mention the series tradition of "pseudo-legendaries" with 600 BST). Some of them are also kinda useless compared to others - same as other Legendaries, and for that matter, other Pokémon who have comparable power. Determining a Pokémon such as a UB as a Legendary, at least in my book, is a combination of factors - while that does include their stats, it also concerns their exclusivity, the way they're encountered, and their overall significance to the plot if they have any.

I made a thread about the categorisation of certain, special Pokémon a long while back, analysing the Alola Pokédex as well as the Pokémon Bank's new interface with its January 2017 update, and how there were a couple of interesting quirks to it that may or may not have changed my perception (I dunno about anyone else on this) about how Game Freak labels them. The specific things that I noted were that the Ultra Beasts, Type: Null/Silvally and the Land Spirits/tapu were all given a green background when registered into the Alola Pokédex, and Rotom doesn't call them "Legendary Pokémon" like he does with Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala and Necrozma (who all have a gold background in the Alola Pokédex and a holographic effect that moves with the gyroscope), even though all of them have stats that are well on par with many Pokémon we considered "Legendary" in the past. Upon checking the Pokédex function in Pokémon Bank after the update, it was seen that they did the same thing with the rest of the Pokédex - things like the bird trio and the beast trio, the lake guardians, Heatran, the Eon duo, and surprisingly enough Mewtwo, don't share the same holographic effect that the "true" Legendary Pokémon (and Mythicals) share in the Pokédex. (It should be noted that the Special Pokémon restriction in things such as battle facilities and VGC still apply to Phione despite also lacking the holographic effect.)

To put it more simply, it seems that I don't think much has changed in that regard - whether or not you put these new Ultra Beasts in the same echelon as actual Legendaries is up to you. To be honest, though, unless they make a game where you can explore Ultra Space as if it were an entirely new region, I don't think Ultra Beasts have a chance of having a BST other than their current universal standard of 570, and I imagine that Game Freak intends to stick to that (as well as their prime number base stats). Besides, their shared ability of Beast Boost is very powerful - they'd need to change a lot more than just their stats/encounter times if they wanted to make an Ultra Beast more comparable to typical early/mid-game Pokémon.

 

[Lanstar]

If anything, I think there is one attribute that distinguishes Ultra Beasts from other Pokemon: No matter how the base stats add up, each stat it has is a prime number. 570 isn't necessarily a distinguishing factor, as Silvally and the Tapu's also have that base stat total.

Now, if we go even further, the Cosmog line and Necrozma also have all prime numbers in their stats - and the game speculates that they might be Ultra Beasts as well. But none of those have 570 BST, so should that discount them as UB's?

Personally, I think the UB's with 570 have this total because they may have been notorious for rivaling the Tapus' power in the past - and hence having power equal to them. This may have given them "legendary status" in their stats - and being untamed by humans because of their power adds to this.

Perhaps there could be new weaker/stronger UB's out there, with their power relative to the dimensions that they reside and travel through. To me, not every Ultra Space dimension has to have legend-status Pokemon in them. Just the prime number part needs to remain.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Indeed, that's all true. I'm just taking the cynical and pessimistic side of the argument in terms of Ultra Beasts as we know them - at the moment, I don't think Game Freak want to go beyond what standards they have already established for the new Ultra Beasts, at least for those which are clearly identified as such, nor do I know if Game Freak are willing to explore possibilities beyond what we already have in future generations that could change things (despite, of course, things like Cosmog existing which have those prime number stats and are also completely defenseless until evolution).

We don't know if the possession of Necrozma will have an effect on Solgaleo or Lunala's stats, but if nothing else, I expect them to remain with the prime number significance no matter what form our mascots take.

Personally, the thing that makes it seem unlikely for me that they'll do UBs any less powerful than the established ones we have right now (aside from Cosmog/Cosmoem) is that, if they were to introduce new ones in future Generations, they're likely to be encountered under similar circumstances to how they are in both pairs of Generation VII games, and such exclusivity for something that's relatively rare in comparison to the usual Com Mons isn't likely to have its BST stripped in comparison to the others that came before it - unless it's the second coming of Cosmog, in which case it'll evolve into something even more powerful. What do you make of that possibility, guys?

 

[Esserise]

Since we’re on the subject, it may be worth mentioning that the official SM site doesn’t list the tapu or Silvally under the “Legendary Pokémon” section; only Solgaleo and Lunala. (And it doesn’t list the UBs among the rest of the Pokémon at all; instead grouping them together in their own page in the “Alola Region” section - but since the debate about the UBs is generally applied to the tapu and Silvally as well...)

 

[Jolty94]

Did anyone ever watch the Sci-fi series Fringe? Maybe our PC is Peter himself and is just trying to find what Universe he truly belongs to

 

[Zweilous]

When it comes to the UBs, Tapus, and Silvally, even if they aren't officially called legendaries they functionally serve the same purpose as one. They check off most of the criteria you'd expect of a legendary (limited number per game, can't breed, high stats, etc.), come with lore that connects them to the region (or in Silvally's case, a history of its creation like Mewtwo and Genesect), and are powerful options you can get late in the game/post-game. The distinction between whether or not they're legendary is one where the line is fairly blurred, and even if you don't consider them one I think we can all agree that they're still meant to be very special Pokémon nonetheless.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Couldn't have put it better myself, @Zweilous. It's for that reason that I can't imagine Game Freak treating the Ultra Beasts anything less than special, endgame/postgame powerhouses. The very least that I could conclude is that, throughout Generation VII, they were willing to explore beyond the usual boundaries of these Pokémon that we saw in past Generations (especially after Generation VI's low count compared to V), through their designs as well as what's considered "Legendary" within the universe... Though once again, I stress that I don't think that they'll go beyond that, at least not in this Generation. Even if the floodgates have been almost totally opened, I'll remain on the cynical side of the argument and won't believe that making an entire Pokédex of Ultra Beasts with variable strength is possible until Game Freak actually does so.

I apologise if I've mostly been repeating myself for these past few posts - I admit, I'm trying to see if anyone else would respond with reasons they could see Game Freak making something like a two- or three-stage evolution Ultra Beast comparable to a regular Pokémon.