Was the idea of Ash ever losing to Misty and Iris a problem to you?

[Cinderfella]

Hey All. Something has been on my mind for awhile now. Ash has lost to both Iris and Misty and there has been some backlash against this for each, mostly due to the way the defeated him or what led up to them prior.

Granted he did defeat them once also, but just out of curiosity-was the idea of Ash losing to them a bad one? Even if it seemed more legit than Psyduck's headache or Iris supposedly getting to the end with luck and favoritism. Should it have happened at all?

I don't mind that it did, it'd be too predictable if Ash's friends never gave him a run for his money. I just wish it was done better. Especially considering Misty and Iris both critiqued him.

I think any of Ash's companions can take him on given the certain circumstance. May, Dawn, Brock, and Cilan aren't exactly poor battlers either.

Discuss.

 

[Alola]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

 

[JacobYBM]

Not really. During either series where Kasumi or Iris were main characters Satoshi was not a particularly great trainer.

 

[Steel_Justice]

It bugs me a bit but I think the main problem is that when Ash loses to Misty or Iris he clutches the idiot ball hard considering he knows (or should know) their pokemon's strengths and what they are have. It's difficult to be dumber than sending a Pikachu after an Excadrill or doing to Psyduck what everyone who has lost to it did. It makes Misty and Iris' win against him seem forced and less legit.

 

[Life]

The idea itself doesn't bother me in the slightest. Ash, Misty, and Iris were never far-off in skill level, so for Ash to always beat them in battle would be a bit odd. Yeah, he's the protagonist, but that doesn't necessarily set him apart from the others in the group power wise.

It bugs me a bit but I think the main problem is that when Ash loses to Misty or Iris he clutches the idiot ball hard considering he knows (or should know) their pokemon's strengths and what they are have.

The same could be said about Misty and Iris knowing Ash's weaknesses.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Those defeats did bother me. The idea of Ash losing to Misty or Iris isn't really the problem, but just the way they handled it. Misty beating Ash in the Whirl Cup felt really cheap because it basically came down to Psyduck's deus ex machnia powers kicking in and Ash being an idiot forgetting that attacking Psyduck on the head would result in Psychic powers. My main issue with Iris defeating Ash actually has more to do with how she shouldn't have even gotten to the finals in the first place. Excadrill defeating Pikachu wasn't quite as cheap in itself, although I forget if Ash chose Pikachu before Iris made her choice, but Iris getting to the finals with cheap wins didn't quite help her out in my opinion.

 

[Steel_Justice]

As some have already said, it would bother me if he didn't lose. Ash, Misty, and Iris were never far-off in skill level, so for Ash to always beat them in battle would be a bit odd. Yeah, he's the protagonist, but that doesn't necessarily set him apart from the others in the group power wise.

It bugs me a bit but I think the main problem is that when Ash loses to Misty or Iris he clutches the idiot ball hard considering he knows (or should know) their pokemon's strengths and what they are have.

The same could be said about Misty and Iris knowing Ash's weaknesses.

True but Ash has far more variety in his team and would have an easier time countering Misty and Iris than the other way around. He also battles more than them so he should know better from experience than to do what he did. It may not have helped too much in the Whirl Island since Ash was restricted to his water types but against Iris he should have used Palpitoad or Snivy against Iris since they would have the strongest overall advantage against her 3 pokemon. He should have been prepared for the scenario that he would have to battle them and planned accordingly.

 

[dman_dustin]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

 

[Alola]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

 

[dman_dustin]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

 

[Alola]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

Obligatory or not, the point is he has won quite a bit. Which is more than barely.

 

[Dark/Legendary Master]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

I wouldn't call a Top 8 Performer (average) in 5 regions out of 256+ trainers (probably way more considering the amount to trainers who don't make it to the League or past the screening) mediocre. He's in the Top 4% of trainers who make it to the League. How that's mediocre IDK.

 

[dman_dustin]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

Obligatory or not, the point is he has won quite a bit. Which is more than barely.

Sure, but Ash has battled A LOT more than any character in the anime. Even if he battled 500 times throughout the entire series. If he lost about 300 of those battles, only winning 200 battles, means he has only won 40% of his total number of battles. That is TOO low for any MAIN character. So no Ash cannot afford to constantly lose just because he somehow needs to be knocked down a peg. That may not actually be the actual % or number of battles, but the point is, Ash is not that good of a trainer if he has lost more than he was won.

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

I wouldn't call a Top 8 Performer (average) in 5 regions out of 256+ trainers (probably way more considering the amount to trainers who don't make it to the League or past the screening) mediocre. He's in the Top 4% of trainers who make it to the League. How that's mediocre IDK.

Because all of his ridiculous losses countermand any impressive wins. I mean there's no reason why Ash lost to Cameron, since Cameron wasn't even a good trainer, and only won on the sole basis of his Pokemon's brute strength. But he did, and that kind of made Ash's more impressive win against Stephan or even Paul in the previous generation less impressive than what they were at the time.

Now let's think about this. Ash has to beat his traveling companions simply because he does battle all the time, he is supposed to be this strong trainer, the strongest of the group he is traveling with at least, so why does he NEED to lose to his traveling companions. I mean if it makes sense, due to type disadvantage/advantage or whatever then fine but if Ash is losing to his traveling companions in otherwise neutral battles. Then yes HE IS a mediocre trainer, and makes watching Ash battle all the time pointless if he is that mediocre. I'm not saying his traveling companions need to be uselessly weak, but Ash should be more battle superior than they are. So yes I would be upset if Serena's Fennekin were to knock out any of Ash's current Pokemon. Clemont is excused at this moment simply because he is the 5th gym leader so he could afford to be slightly stronger, but I will be upset if Ash doesn't defeat Clemont for his 5th badge or if they end up tying. Or Ash loses ridiculously to Clemont close to the league or even after the league.

 

[CrystaI]

I wouldn't call a Top 8 Performer (average) in 5 regions out of 256+ trainers (probably way more considering the amount to trainers who don't make it to the League or past the screening) mediocre. He's in the Top 4% of trainers who make it to the League. How that's mediocre IDK.

The ranking in the Pokemon League is not the only measure to judge whether he is a skillful trainer or not. The kind of strategies he used and could think up, his attitude towards Pokemon and towards battles, the amount of time and effort endeavor to training, the learning attitude from one's advices and from his own mistakes, the amount of Pokemon knowledge he has, are all important factors to measure his skill as a Pokemon Trainer.

And mind to say, "luck" is rather a negative factor to measure one's Pokemon trainer skill. If ones always win just by simply luck from thoughtless rashness, that will not add points onto one's skill level. And if such lucky wins continues along the way, that rather will oppositely pose a bad reputation in the audience' eye, because it means the reason to win has completely nothing to do with one's skill level.

And hence, I would also say Ash Ketchum being a Pokemon Trainer is mediocre, because his actual trainer skill level is mediocre. Luck and "help from outside the 4th wall" is not an attribute towards his trainer skill level.

 

[Alola]

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

Obligatory or not, the point is he has won quite a bit. Which is more than barely.

Sure, but Ash has battled A LOT more than any character in the anime. Even if he battled 500 times throughout the entire series. If he lost about 300 of those battles, only winning 200 battles, means he has only won 40% of his total number of battles. That is TOO low for any MAIN character. So no Ash cannot afford to constantly lose just because he somehow needs to be knocked down a peg. That may not actually be the actual % or number of battles, but the point is, Ash is not that good of a trainer if he has lost more than he was won.

Well, who exactly wants to see Ash win every battle he faces anyway?

Ash barely wins anyhow, so I don't see why Ash needs to lose to his traveling companions unless they make sense like Pikachu vs Excadrill.

Winning 40 badges, reaching far into five regional leagues, defeating all of Kantos Frontier Brains, the countless TR wins, Pokemon captures and the occasional win against COTDs isn't barely. He can stand to lose against his companions every now and then, especially if they are decent opponents themselves.

I'm pretty sure overall Ash has lost MORE battles than he has won, or if he has won more, it's only by a few % points.

Of course over 5 generations, Ash has beat 40 gyms, he's supposed to because it's part of the plot there would be no reason for Ash to go through a region and not qualify for the Pokemon League. Ash is not a very depicted strong trainer. He's mediocre at best. I hate saying that since Ash is my favorite character, but Ash is always in need of big wins, that aren't obligatory and guaranteed.

I wouldn't call a Top 8 Performer (average) in 5 regions out of 256+ trainers (probably way more considering the amount to trainers who don't make it to the League or past the screening) mediocre. He's in the Top 4% of trainers who make it to the League. How that's mediocre IDK.

Because all of his ridiculous losses countermand any impressive wins. I mean there's no reason why Ash lost to Cameron, since Cameron wasn't even a good trainer, and only won on the sole basis of his Pokemon's brute strength. But he did, and that kind of made Ash's more impressive win against Stephan or even Paul in the previous generation less impressive than what they were at the time.

Now let's think about this. Ash has to beat his traveling companions simply because he does battle all the time, he is supposed to be this strong trainer, the strongest of the group he is traveling with at least, so why does he NEED to lose to his traveling companions. I mean if it makes sense, due to type disadvantage/advantage or whatever then fine but if Ash is losing to his traveling companions in otherwise neutral battles. Then yes HE IS a mediocre trainer, and makes watching Ash battle all the time pointless if he is that mediocre. I'm not saying his traveling companions need to be uselessly weak, but Ash should be more battle superior than they are. So yes I would be upset if Serena's Fennekin were to knock out any of Ash's current Pokemon. Clemont is excused at this moment simply because he is the 5th gym leader so he could afford to be slightly stronger, but I will be upset if Ash doesn't defeat Clemont for his 5th badge or if they end up tying. Or Ash loses ridiculously to Clemont close to the league or even after the league.

Just as long as you understand that he hasn't barely won his battles, I digress. But just a little food for thought: since when was it established that a main character cannot have more losses than wins in Pokemon? If you want an example, just look at Team Rocket. Second to Ash and Pikachu, they're the next main characters of the show and they lose constantly. Given how the show randomly fluctuates Ash's battling mentality, skill and strength, I don't think it should be hard to swallow that his traveling companions can best him every once in a while.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

I had no problems with Iris and Misty defeating Ash in battle. Ash may be talented and strong trainer, but that does not mean his companions are weaklings either and could not be just as powerful. Or at least close to his skill level having decent chance of giving him run for its money.

When Misty beat Ash at Whirl Cup, everyone focus only on Psyduck headache which while cheap was not deux machina at that point, because it was frequently showed ever since Kanto to be one of unique things about that pokemon. Being able to unleash his psychic powers to immense level when feeling pressure or pain caused to his head. With Ash reckless side causing him to lose.

But we can see in battle between Totodile and her Poliwhirl how Misty showed better level of understanding in using water terrain to her advantage. With Poliwhirl not having trouble in knocking Ash pokemon down , that same pokemon which defeated Kingdra earlier to that. Being more flexible and skilled not just there but in battle vs Coastline gym leader Dorian in underwater battles or sagainst Molly. With Ash having weaker success there.

Even if Psyduck didnt popped out which seemed like writers attempt to bring more humor and make atmosphere more intense for battle with pokemon who cannot swim. If Misty used Corsola result could likely be the same. With coral pokemon many underestimate being strong enough to stand up to Ash Kingler. If it was able to knock down Trinity Gyarados, it could had defeated Kingler as well.

She was also pretty equal to Ash in quick thinking and had more knowledge witnessing to evenly played out battle for Totodile. Where while Ash did won, he had hard time in defeating Misty pokemon despite type advantage in using grass pokemon.

So i dont think Misty was pushover having several impressive feats in defeating experienced, powerrful trainers and winning competitions. She was talented for her age, wanted to reach E4 level of strength, power and become strongest trainer specializing in water types in world having somwehat similar aspirations like Ash(becoming honored and known in world but through different means).

Viewing her as someone who had chance to defeat Ash in fair fight.

Same applies to Iris. Iris was not only portrayed as trainer prodigy being unusually well versed and artful with pokemon and utilization of correct strategy through battles. Ever since her youngest years in defeating several trainers at dragon village. Continuously proving to be strong trainer in her performance in competitions like Marine Cup, Clubsplosion, in battles vs other trainers etc.

But Iris also had huge type advantage over Ash in finale of Club Battle tournament With half of Pikachu attacks not having any effect on ground pokemon. Excadrill was more powerful, had more resistance, better environment in using combination of dig and metal claw, drill run to counter other half of Pikachu attacks.

Regardless of how and by what means character came to finale, Iris won fair and square over Ash there and i cannot have any objection for it.

I dont know about others, but its nice to see sometime Ash friends succeeding and having their 5 minutes of glory. Ash is main star of pokemon anime. He saves day 80 to 90% of time when some danger occurs. He has much longer list of achievements and battles where he comes out as victorious, recognized and respected for his trainer abilities. THan his companions do.

So its desierable and even more so refreshing when his travel companions have spotlight and succees to themselves as well. Having that moment when they are treated as star of pokemon series, even if its for short and display how their knowledge. Their own pokemon, working on improving their understanding of pokemon creatures, battling and skills on road of achieving their dreams bring fruits on table.

In managing to stand their ground against other experienced, strong trainers like Ash. It gives out impression how friends on Ash side can and have resources, attainment and skill to resolve crisis when needed. Save Ash when hes unable to defend himself and have power and potential to accompish their dreams when they shine in action. Not coming of as baggage, someone who slow others down.

But equal partners and battlers who have will, competitive spirit and desire to make name for themselves in world of pokemon trainers as well.

For that reason alone seeing Ash lose against Misty and Iris was acceptable and fine to me.

 

[henrymidfields]

Ash lost to Misty because the latter was going all-out.

I can't really say for Iris, as I haven't seen BW at all, but yeah, I remember watching that particular match against Misty's Psyduck, and thinking "Ash! Not the head!". It kinda sucked, but then it was kinda funny as well. However seeing more of how Gym Leaders work, I say Ash losing to Misty is fine.

Clemont is excused at this moment simply because he is the 5th gym leader so he could afford to be slightly stronger, but I will be upset if Ash doesn't defeat Clemont for his 5th badge or if they end up tying. Or Ash loses ridiculously to Clemont close to the league or even after the league.

I believe Ash v Misty (or for that matter Ash vs any gym-leader travelling companion) should be excused regardless for reasons depicted as below:

Ash v Misty in Kanto and in Johto are under completely different circumstances. Ash was restricted to water-types, and thus would inevitably have a disadvantage against Misty - who specialised in that type. Furthermore, both this and the Totodile battles earlier in the arc were non-gym battles, so Misty would have gone all-out. If anything, this is evidence of gym battles being non-indicative of the gym leader's actual power.

Case in point: Electric Tales had Misty's sister ask Ash what badge level Ash needed to go for. GSC and especially HGSS had stronger Pokemon with the Kanto leaders - this is with Ethan/Kris/Lyra actually being League Champions. Cheren in BW2 even mentioned that he wasn't able to use his BW1 team, which would have no doubt demolished Nate/Rosa's starter. Pokémon Origins had Giovanni use weaker Pokémon against Blue (as per Gym Leader legislation) and have the powerhouses against Red (as Red specifically wanted to battle against the Leader of Team Rocket.). If anything, league officials would be pissed off if a gym leader overwhelms the trainers and artificially bars them from accessing the League. Finally, I'm pretty sure that a number of us who played the rematches struggled or even lost to gym leaders we previously won - and it's partly because said gym leaders are using their strongest Pokémon as opposed to their Gym-sanctioned ones.

Thus the most logical explanation is: Misty held back against Ash in the Kanto gym battle, and went all-out in the non-gym ones. So, really, just because Ash won the Cascade Badge, it doesn't automatically mean that Ash is stronger than Misty, esp if the latter happened to close to E4-level skill. Similarly Clemont may hold back for the gym fight as well, and go all-out outside the gym, perhaps revealing to have trained under a past E4 member. You just cannot make direct comparisons, because as I said before, they are under different circumstances.

Thus unless if it is a blatant loss a la Ash vs Trip, I am quite happy to cut some slack for Ash losing to a gym leader outside a gym. As some people said before, being Top 4% average in 5 regions at an age of 10-15 is nothing to laugh at - at least not in real-life situations. Does the lack of a league win contribute to Ash being shown in a mediocre light for us audiences, and make the series less entertaining? Yes it does, I'm afraid. Does that actually make him mediocre as a battler? Not if you consider the empirical facts (league stats). Luck? Well I'm pretty sure Ash's league stats would be a lot more inconsistent, with him not even going through the prelims for some regions if the achievements are based on sheer dumb luck. So far, none of the detractors seemed to have any in-universe logical proof (apart from bad writing, which is admittedly evident in parts, and in one case, an entire arc BW).

Further food for thought: At least two of the Kalos gym leaders are as strong as the Elite Four - didn't we see Grant and Viola being Duchesses and the latter being promoted to Grand? Only Diantha has the GD title in the games. (This is assuming that anime Siebold, Wikstrom and others are at Duke/Duchess level as in the games.) Furthermore Cheren and Blue (in BW1 and RBY respectively) actually battled the E4 in the games and became Gym Leaders (in BW2 and GSC respectively) later on. Agatha in the anime stepped down from E4 to become Viridian City gym leader. So at least a number Gym Leaders are at or fairly close to Elite Four level in terms of skill. So, really, we need to see Clemont's battle against other Gym Leaders and possibly the Elite Four to decide how strong/weak Clemont is too.

 

[Maya the Cat]

I'm more bothered by him losing to characters of the week.

 

[Mew2]

No, I was never bothered by Ash losing to Misty or Iris. I remember the Iris battle more since it was more recent, and given the circumstances and the type advantage that Iris's Excadrill had over Pikachu, I would have been more troubled if Pikachu had somehow pulled off a win than if he had lost, which he did.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To henrymidfields: I agree how strength of gym leader shouldnt be based on his team alone and display of battle abilities when facing trainers at gym. Since using their strongest pokemon and going all out against rookies and mediocre trainers would result in almost no one from beginners even having chance of winning badge. With job of gym leader being to evaluate challenger strength and connection with his pokemon determining if they are suitable material to compete in league.

Rather than crushing them into the ground.

Leading to reasonable inference how against stronger trainers such as Paul, Ash, Gary and many others or in tournaments like Battle chateau for example they use more advanced strategy and better pokemon. Or using existing ones to full potential than not lowering their guard.

This was pretty good covered in Misty battle vs Ash for Totodile or in Whirl Cup. Although its also worth noting that when she used Staryu against Chikorita stronger attacks such as water gun which almost knocked out grass type with one blow could be result of training and power up over time when she traveled with Ash. Indicating how Staryu may not had been at same level of power in gym battle way back in Cerulean. Where in reality Ash won badge without battle even being finished. Since result was tied if im not mistaken.

However i wouldnt go as far in saying how gym leaders are even close to any E4 member, let alone being on their level.

E4 are whole another league of trainers holding higher stats in games than any gym leader being classified as strongest 4 trainers of one region. I certainly recall having tougher time in general when dealing with E4 rather than gym leaders when playing games.

That discrepancy in power creep is even more accentuated in anime where E4 members are much stronger than any gym leader in anime is. With Ash even at his best not being able to take down just one of E4 pokemon, even bring them in corner forcing to rethink strategy. Thus never being in difficult position, but had no problems in defeating gym leaders pokemon. We cannot forget how gym leaders when battle trainers of high calliber such as Ash, especially in 8th gym like Clair, Volkner etc dont hold themselves back. Because theyre facing not rookie, but full fledged experienced trainer, but yet again even with their arsenal and full strength they went vs trainers like Ash they ended up losing.

Difference in power level between gym leaders and E4 was pretty good showcased when Ash challenged Flint with three of his pokemon including Infernape, but ended up destroyed just by his Infernape. However in battle against Volkner, gym leader had very hard time in dealing with Ash pokemon with Infernape eventually scoring home for the run.

Even with earlier gym such as against Cilan at Striatlon gym it appeared to me that Cilan wasnt holding himself back when facing newly caught pokemon of Ash Oshawott knowing he is battling experienced veteran who isnt beginner. Because he ended up completely shocked and unprepared for Ash strategy and unorthodox battle style, which was main reason behind deciding to travel with him in first place. Realizing he has lot more to learn , meet stronger trainers and enter tournaments to make his battle style more efficient. Which brought fruits on table when facing Trip, Bianca and prof. Juniper, Subway masters and many others developing more creative combinations through Crustle and Pansage.

Granted in games some gym leaders hold title of Duch/Duchess but we do not know if competition they faced to reach that level were ordinary trainers and gym leaders or people of higher rank such as champion, E4 members. Especially when based on whast Grant/Viola showed in anime they are definitely not on E4 or close to champion like Diantha level.

There exist gym leaders in games which became E4(like Koga), but even that in wasnt hopping from one position to another. With Koga supposedly spending three years rigorously training after he enthrusted gym to his daughter during time skip and prior to becoming E4 three years later in Gold/Silver.

For that reason alone i dont think any gym leader is equal to E4 member persay. Agatha doesnt count, because it was said she is temporary substitute for Viridian gym until replacement is found, to not let gym empty. With her words prior to facing Ash of not having any decent opponent for long time implying none of challengers passed her.