Was the idea of Ash ever losing to Misty and Iris a problem to you?

[XYZ Nexus]

Well with Iris I could understand since she did actually train on screen and was shown to take Pokemon much more seriously than BW Ash did at the time. Whereas Misty's win against Ash at the Whirl Cup was just BS in my opinion, the way he lost was simply making a simple mistake, I doubt anyone would think of that battle as a testament for Misty's battling skills which aren't exactly much barring TR beatdowns. It was a gag win through and through imo. I never had a problem with Iris winning against Ash, but Misty against Ash through a gag win? That is a problem to me. My opinion, feel free to disagree or flame since I'm just stating how I feel.

 

[Cresselia92]

Like many people have said, it's not the simple fact of Ash losing to Misty or Iris the problem. I have absolutely no issue with him losing to them. It's the way and setting in which said losses happened what irks me.

Let's start with Misty. Both her and Ash fought well during the Whirl Cup and deserved to reach the Semifinals. What I disliked, however, was Ash momentarily forgetting Psyduck's headache powers. Even as a kid I didn't like that much and I found myself shaking my head. It may have been made for comedic purposes, but I simply found it way too convenient.

Now about Iris. I had no problem with the match itself. Pikachu vs. Excadrill was ok, and if I'm not mistaken it was Ash who sent out Pikachu first. I was absolutely fine with the outcome. What irked me was the way in which Iris reached the finals: Emolga suddenly stopping disobeying and Axew pulling an Outrage which is never used again? I don't like using terms like DEM or whatnot, but in Axew's case I have to use it, because the match was the definition of that term IMO.

Long story short, Ash losing against them as an idea is fine. It's the execution the real problem.

 

[Gengarzilla]

Nope, not a problem at all. I fully expected OS Ash to forget about Psyduck's headache-induced Psychic type moves and Excadrill has the clear advantage against Pikachu.

 

[owenpeterson]

Since I haven't gotten to the BW yet I will just stick to Misty.

I'll say that although it does bother me that Ash had to lose to Misty in such a fashion, I also feel that it was more important for Misty to be victorious in the Whirl Cup battle. The Whirl Cup obviously meant more to Misty than to Ash because it was a Water Pokemon only tournament. Ash may train some Water Pokemon, but Misty specializes in Water Pokemon which is why Misty wanted to compete in the Whirl Cup. Ash just likes participating in Pokemon competition which is why he participated in it. But the Whirl Cup was one of those once in a lifetime opportunities for Water Pokemon specialists like Misty. Ash obviously had bigger fish to fry (IE earning the remaining 3 badges for the Pokemon League) So the Whirl Cup obviously meant little to Ash in the long run when his main focus is the big prize, the Pokemon League Tournament, which Misty (as well as Iris) cannot participate in due to their status as Gym Leaders as well as not wanting to interfere with Ash's goals.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Since I haven't gotten to the BW yet I will just stick to Misty.

I'll say that although it does bother me that Ash had to lose to Misty in such a fashion, I also feel that it was more important for Misty to be victorious in the Whirl Cup battle. The Whirl Cup obviously meant more to Misty than to Ash because it was a Water Pokemon only tournament. Ash may train some Water Pokemon, but Misty specializes in Water Pokemon which is why Misty wanted to compete in the Whirl Cup. Ash just likes participating in Pokemon competition which is why he participated in it. But the Whirl Cup was one of those once in a lifetime opportunities for Water Pokemon specialists like Misty. Ash obviously had bigger fish to fry (IE earning the remaining 3 badges for the Pokemon League) So the Whirl Cup obviously meant little to Ash in the long run when his main focus is the big prize, the Pokemon League Tournament, which Misty (as well as Iris) cannot participate in due to their status as Gym Leaders as well as not wanting to interfere with Ash's goals.

I know what you mean and i agree.

Whirl Cup definitely held much bigger importance for Misty career and interests as trainer than it would ever be case for Ash. He just entered it because he found it fun to battle all kind of water trainers and see how far he can go there.

But with Misty motives behind entering this tournament were of entire different nature. Ever since she heard about it from prof. Elm she bursted with big fire and enthusiasm in winning whole water tournament and acquiring title of Alpha Omega of water pokemon. She dreamed of becoming water ookemon master more than ever before viewing this as big opportunity to bring her closer toward this dream. Which she was right, because entering and winning Whirl Cup showed to be one of vital steps in becoming master of water types.

According to lore told by prof. Elm and sea priestess Maya of water pokemon masters in past carrying title Alpha Omega of water pokemon being one of tasks ,competitions mandatory to obtain in order to come closer toward this goal. Whole talk about sea heroes and water spirits who had power to understand and use water specie to full potential only further accented on this with writers explaining more about Misty dreams and what they entails.

This tournament meant much, much more to Misty than it would ever have been for Ash both because of her passion and love for water pokemon wanting to show whole world how unique they are and make name for herself. But also for her reputation and credibility as trainer of water types as well with Whirl Cup serving as push forward in accomplishing water master dream. While for Ash it had no importance aside from serving as dispensable tourist like attraction.

Which is another reason why i thought Misty deserved win there more than Ash. Sure win could have been played out in more skill based way during their match without factor of luck and whole Psyduck fiasco involved.

But through whole tournament Misty fought hard showing to have just as much, if not more skill than Ash there during preliminary rounds, in taking down Harrison Quilfish, Ash Totodile and Trinity Gyarados.
Adding to validity and reasoning behind defeating Ash there in my opinion.

p.s. Not sure if her and Iris gym leader status(although Iris isnt one in anime)would stop them from collecting badges and entering league though. Because they could always find substitute and leave gym to go on that quest like Koga, Wallce, Candice plans to do vowing to Zoey she will become champion one day etc.

But in end its irrelevant because for Iris and Misty becoming champions and entering league isnt among steps required to become water and dragon masters. Since dragon master title is given through elders of dragon village after someone proved to know how to reach to dragon hearts reading their feelings and showing immense skills and knowledge in commanding them.

While for Misty involves becoming strongest water trainer in world fancyling E4 Lorelei wanting to become recognized and powerful as her one day. Reaching E4 member level herself along with prestigue tournaments like Whirl Cup showing how there exists special tasks, events to enter and win to obtain water master title.

 

[roxanwright]

It was never really a problem to me. However, the way he handled his defeat to them was kind of annoying. I think Misty and Iris have a good chance of defeating him because they have an idea of his pokemons' strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Since I haven't gotten to the BW yet I will just stick to Misty.

I'll say that although it does bother me that Ash had to lose to Misty in such a fashion, I also feel that it was more important for Misty to be victorious in the Whirl Cup battle. The Whirl Cup obviously meant more to Misty than to Ash because it was a Water Pokemon only tournament. Ash may train some Water Pokemon, but Misty specializes in Water Pokemon which is why Misty wanted to compete in the Whirl Cup. Ash just likes participating in Pokemon competition which is why he participated in it. But the Whirl Cup was one of those once in a lifetime opportunities for Water Pokemon specialists like Misty. Ash obviously had bigger fish to fry (IE earning the remaining 3 badges for the Pokemon League) So the Whirl Cup obviously meant little to Ash in the long run when his main focus is the big prize, the Pokemon League Tournament, which Misty (as well as Iris) cannot participate in due to their status as Gym Leaders as well as not wanting to interfere with Ash's goals.

I don't recall anything about Gym Leaders being unable to participate in Pokemon League tournaments. That would make sense, but I don't recall that being mentioned in the show. Besides that, Misty wasn't a Gym Leader until after she left the cast. There is no indication that she gave out Gym badges and faced challengers before she left the cast. The only exception was her battle against Ash, which was because her sisters couldn't face him and she didn't want him to get a badge for free. Some of her specials in Chronicles also made it clear that Misty had no experience to running the Gym beforehand. Iris is definitely not a Gym Leader in BW. While Drayden wanted Iris to become a Gym Leader, she never takes that position during or after the series.

While Misty getting further in the Whirl Cup made sense because it did involve her goal, there was really no good reason like that for Iris to win the Club Battle tournament. There was no buildup to her winning the tournament, it didn't advance her goal in the slightest, unless we count Axew learning Outrage out of nowhere to give her a victory where she should have lost and never use the move again as progress, and her victory never really mattered in the long run. I don't like how Misty won in her battle against Ash, but at least it made sense for her get further than Ash because the Whirl Cup actually connected to her goal more so than it did with Ash. I still say that Iris's victory is due to how she ended up in the finals in the first place more so than just her match with Ash, but there wasn't any good reason for her to beat Ash like there was with Misty.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To Hidden Mew:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Misty mentioned several times how she was Cerulean gym leader in Original series. Whether it was when someone insulted Pewter and Cerulean gyms with Misty and Brock demanding from Ash to defend their reputation as gym leaders like trainer AJ. Or when introducing themselves to others.

In Totodile duel Misty mentioned how she has reputation as Cerulean gym leader to defend on stake with this battle "being opportunity to settle down unfinished work started way back in Kanto at Cerulean".
I recall Misty saying to Molly in third pokemon movie how she is against one of Cerulean gym leaders. Etc.

On top of that in Takeshi Shudo novelizations it was brought up how parents left them with gym being assigned to Misty and her sisters to run.

Its true how there is no indication that Misty was running gym before she met Ash. But not having experience or not handing out badges doesnt necessarily mean how she wasn't passive gym leader at that time(just like Cilan, Brock or Clemont when joining Ash were gym leaders in resting with replacements or other family members carrying out duties).

Through family tradition, prerogative being gym leader in reserve taking it over when rest are incapable of doing so.

Which would explain why battle between Misty and Ash in 7th episode at Cerulean was treated as official with Misty setting rules with none of her siblings objecting at that.

p.s. I dont plan nor want to start debate. Just wanted to say how there exist enough reasonable evidence for people to believe otherwise.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I'm aware that Misty said that she was a Gym Leader during the course of the original series, but that doesn't really make any sense given what we saw in her Chronicle specials. Plus, I'm not sure if that was added in the dub or not. Regardless, I still say that she wasn't a Gym Leader until she left the cast. She referred to herself as a Water Pokemon Master a few times as well and that clearly wasn't true. Clian and Brock were active Gym Leaders when they met Ash. Clemont wasn't because of his robot going out of control, but even then, he is still considered the Gym Leader because he made the robot so that he could have more time for inventing stuff. With Misty, it seemed like her sisters were running it until she had to take over, so it wasn't like she was taking a break from being Gym Leader during the original series.

I don't want to discuss this issue any further since I don't want this thread to devolve into only a discussion about Misty, which is what I was worried about the moment I brought up my opinion, but I think it's pretty clear that Misty wasn't a Gym Leader until she left the cast, despite her statements claiming otherwise.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

I'm aware that Misty said that she was a Gym Leader during the course of the original series, but that doesn't really make any sense given what we saw in her Chronicle specials. Plus, I'm not sure if that was added in the dub or not. Regardless, I still say that she wasn't a Gym Leader until she left the cast. She referred to herself as a Water Pokemon Master a few times as well and that clearly wasn't true. Clian and Brock were active Gym Leaders when they met Ash. Clemont wasn't because of his robot going out of control, but even then, he is still considered the Gym Leader because he made the robot so that he could have more time for inventing stuff. With Misty, it seemed like her sisters were running it until she had to take over, so it wasn't like she was taking a break from being Gym Leader during the original series.

I don't want to discuss this issue any further since I don't want this thread to devolve into only a discussion about Misty, which is what I was worried about the moment I brought up my opinion, but I think it's pretty clear that Misty wasn't a Gym Leader until she left the cast, despite her statements claiming otherwise.

Speaking of dub i asked Dogasu to help clear that up few months ago and he confirmed how in original Japanese version it was stated not once, but multiple times in OS how she is Cerulean gym leader when traveling with Ash. So its not dub only thing.

Granted Misty did referred to herself as water master few times having tendency to prance about something she hasnt achieved yet. But difference is that whenever Misty called herself master she got called out on that by Ash and others admitting soon afterwards how shes not.

Whenever she said to be gym leader no one ever called her out on that and it was always brought up in serious, determined way. Instead of being brought up as joke. When introducing herself to other unknown people.

And i know in chronicles she didnt had much experience when taking over gym and how to run it(though dub altered so much dialogue that i would take it with grain of salt), but like i said she could had been passive gym leader when joining Ash. Reserve which was kinda true in 7th episode when challenging Ash. Not battling challengers or running gym when sisters were in main charge of it during OS saying themselves how she decided to leave gym to become what appeared to be strongest water trainer/water master in world according to her. But still officially carrying out such title through family tradition(some sort of frozen mandate).

Because "true of a part doesnt make something true as whole",. Being possible to not have much experience and still be something or someone.

I dont have any wish to discus this subject either, but i only decided to bring this up to explan why people consider Misty was gym leader in OS. With canon several times stating this not having any reason personally to doubt in authenticy of what writers wrote.

But i respect your views and opinion on this and can understand why you may think otherwise.

p.s. I also apologize if this was abit of topic.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Fair enough that it wasn't just a dub thing, but I still really doubt that she was a Gym Leader before the end of the original series. I can't really see her as a passive Gym Leader when she seemed not much more experienced than Ash was when the series first started and her actions in Chronicles made it clear that she wasn't familiar with what she needed to do as a Gym Leader. At least with Brock, he actually was clearly established as a Gym Leader before he traveled with Ash. Battling with Ash doesn't make her a passive Gym Leader when she only did it when she was the only one with Pokemon that could actually battle. She wanted to leave to become the world's greatest Water Pokemon Trainer when she left, but there's really no indication that she was an active Gym Leader beforehand when her sisters were clearly running the Gym until the end of the original series.

But I really don't want to talk about this anymore because this is off topic and like I said before, I don't want this to devolve into a Misty discussion. Apologizing for a comment being off-topic doesn't make it okay either. Also, when someone tells you that they don't want to discuss a topic any further, don't ignore it and respond back.

 

[CrashBash]

I can't speak for Misty beating Ash, since I didn't see that particular episode....although nonetheless the way Ash did lose sounds questionable at best.

Putting aside how Iris got to the final, I don't see an issue with her beating Ash. After all, her Excadrill was not only her best Pokemon - a veteran who went 99 battles without losing as opposed to a youngster with limited experience (Axew) and someone who really had limited interest in battling (Emolga) - but he had the complete advantage over Pikachu. If anything, I would have said there would have been more of a problem if Ash had won (but hey, at least they clarified Electric attacks were useless).

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think it's kind of hard to put aside how Iris got into the finals since that does make her victory more hallow in my opinion. Since she didn't deserve to get into the finals and her previous victories in the tournament were pretty much handed to her, it made her victory against Ash more undeserved than it needed to be. If she actually earned those victories in the other rounds in the tournament, then beating Ash wouldn't have been an issue at all.

 

[CrashBash]

Whilst I will not deny that to be true, that isn't really what I'm focusing on. I'm only really talking about the Ash vs Iris battle, since that's what the topic is about, after all.

I will say this, though, there were a LOT of fluky wins in that tournament. It almost felt like the final was the only one that wasn't. Buuut that's a topic for another time.

 

[Shinneth]

Eh, I kinda found the Ash vs Iris battle to be pretty bullshit in its own right, personally. Mainly it's the setup of the whole thing; while it was a fairly-fought battle, the odds were stacked so heavily against Ash from the get-go that it really came off as yet another achievement served to Iris on a silver platter like everything else that preceded it. I recall Ash was the first to choose his Pokemon, so it wasn't really his fault that he went in with such lopsided odds. Just looking at the basic facts of the opponents before even considering the battle, it's a painfully foregone conclusion. Excadrill's typing completely negates Pikachu's most powerful attacks, and what it has left to use against Excadrill are very ineffective, while on the other hand, Excadrill had not only a major type advantage over Pikachu, but was able to utilize all of its moves in the battle. I honestly felt that literally any trainer using an Excadrill would have won that battle, so the battle itself didn't really show me Iris as anything special as a trainer, especially since she didn't bother to utilize any kind of strategy. Of course, with so many advantages on her end, she didn't need to implement such strategy, but the point is that the match-up in of itself was so terribly lopsided that there was no way I could see it as a victory I should be happy Iris had over Ash. Usually when Ash is the underdog in these situations, that makes the audience really want him to win. So it's a bit off-putting that Ash was put in the underdog situation and Iris, who had all the advantages in the world, got the win.

It's especially bad since that battle was the final battle of a four-episode tournament. You just don't build things up for a long period of time and end it with a shoddy foregone conclusion like that; it's terrible storytelling. And knowing how Iris got to the finals anyway, this battle just made her come off more as incredibly lucky rather than legitimately skilled. Well, that's how I saw it, anyway. It didn't help that throughout the Don Battle arc, it really seemed to be building up to an Ash vs Luke finale, and Iris was among the most detached characters in terms of the tournament itself. Consider Misty, her goal, and her losing the Whirl Cup even though that was practically the most relevant thing to her character and goal throughout the entirety of Johto. Even though the way she defeated Ash was a huge asspull, I could at least understand why she beat Ash in this particular tournament that was far more relevant to her than it was to him. Iris has pretty much nothing to do with the Don Battle and won it for practically no reason.

It's not the idea of Misty or Iris defeating Ash in battle itself that was problematic to me; it was how they went about it whenever it actually happened. They didn't really exemplify their skill and worthiness as trainers to be on level with Ash when the key to victory is Psyduck having a headache or Iris having so many inherent advantages going in that I find it hard to believe she had to try that hard to beat Ash; that battle was practically Ash going into battle with an arm tied behind his back and blindfolded against a handicap-free Iris. If either of them battled Ash on a more even keel, I'd be far more accepting of the outcome, regardless of who won. Sure, bias might prevent me from liking it, but I'd at least find it... you know... believable.

 

[JacobYBM]

The point wasn't to exemplify anyone's skills. It was to write horrible battles. If the battles were meant to be well-orchestrated they would have been, just as the battles during Diamond & Pearl were.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To Yuugis Black Magician:
Im not sure if i would go as far to call battles terrible. I mean there were some poor choices and questionably planned outcomes. But looking at this two tournaments. Club Battle where Iris won over Ash had quite a few attracting, enjoyable matches imo. Such as Ash vs Georgia or Trip vs Cilan for example.

I had no problems with how finale was written either. Because Iris had every possible advantage with statistic and environment being completely on her side when defeating Ash and his Pikachu. Athough to be fair Pikachu according to Zekrom during start of journey in Unova got weakened throgh intervention of legendary. With electric attacks as resuilt of that losing on power and consistency, so that should be took in account too when Pikachu lost to Excadril. Aside from huge type advantage mole pokemon had over it.

Either way i was bothered myself with way how Iris progressed to finals. Especially in battle aganst Luke where Axew was in losing position learning outrage out of nowhere coming of as forced and jarring. Spam of atract with static ability activating against Stephan Sawk in last moment didnt heped either to make whole path toward finals believale.

But if i just look at battle against Ash, i stil think Iris won fairly utilizing more effective strategy and choice of moves.

Speaking of Whirl Cup interestingly enough "Dueling Heroes!" asnd "Pefect Match!" along with some other episodes in Whirl islands mini detour concerned on Misty had Atsuhiro Tomioka involved in them.Which coincidence or not under his involvement explored more on her dream of becoming water master and certain steps it entails to overcome than it was case before that.

I still think that back for the day standards Whirl Cup had great battles. Enjoying in amunt of suspension, details and unexpected turnovers happening in battles(vs Cristopher, Harrison, Trinity, trainer with Seaking etc) with rivalry laced with fire going between Ash and Misty only adding on importance and eventual build up of their most important clash.

Battle between Ash and Misty was played out pretty well before Psyduck popped out. Misty was able to utilize water surface to her advantage in stopping Ash Totodile from using long range attacks on Poliwhirl using it as medium to come without risk closer and overpower him with bigger physical strength.

Ash comeback with Kingler was pretty amazing as well showing once more why it is contender for possibly strongest water pokemon Ash has. With Ash and Misty standing pretty evened out at that point.
However once when Psyduck jumped out of its ball it did felt like match felt incomplete taking away from heat of battle.

But than again when i look back on all kind of misplays Ash does even as battle hardened veteran in later sagas. Such as forgetting about type advantage which match vs Brandon and his Dusclops in BF illustrated perfectly costing Charizard lose of battle for example or in Pikachu stil using thunder vs ground type.

Suddenly his moment of forgetfulness can be somewhat excused, being part of his character to be sometime absentminded and caught in excitement acting reckless.
On that account alone and Misty not doing any illegal action when using advantage of Psyduck headache makes her win justified in my eyes. Especially when she didnt even planned to use Psyduck in first place counting on Corsola which proved to be well trained in knocking down Seaking, Quilfish and Gyarados through tournament. Making her eligible candidate imo to plausibly overcome Kingler if it wasnt for Psyduck.

 

[JacobYBM]

A few good battles were written for Best Wishes when those battles were meant to be good, but other than that the bad fights were not simply 'accidents'. One does not accidentally write, storyboard, layout, and then key animate a bad fight by accident.

 

[CrashBash]

I wouldn't have exactly said Ash's battle with Georgia was "good" either, considering he pretty much beat her on a complete fluke. Yes, he's won taking advantage of the arena floor before, but compare what happened there with what happened with his battle against Katie back in the EGC, and you see the difference.

 

[PyroPokeman]

Ash Vs Misty.

Meh, it was the early days, Ash did something idiotic, else it was a close match, but Misty won. I don't remember it that well, so I may be wrong on this one.

Ash vs Iris

Nope, no excuse she could have won. That was one of my MANY peeves with BW, they bashed Ash's head against a Geodude, and all that awesomeness from D/P just ceased in existence. HE'S A SEASONED TRAINER BY NOW FOR ARCEUS"S SAKE!!!!!!

Her place in that Tournament was undeserving.