Was the people’s hatred towards 4kids really justified?

[dwain23456]

4kids was one of the most hated companies in the 90s and 2000 because of a lot of things. They censored anime and foreign media to the point in which they don’t resemble the original Japanese versions. The executives at 4kids say insulting quotes about the animation media and the fandom. Their worst offenses were their one piece dub which nearly takes the reputation of the show until Funimation rescue it in 2007 and Turtles Forever in which they used the 2003 turtles to insult the 87 show constantly. Both of which made the audiences saying that they have had enough with 4kids. In 2014 4kids was filed into bankruptcy and the animation community rejoiced. So in stance, was the people’s hatred towards 4kids really justified and did 4kids really deserved all the hate and backlash they received back in the 90s and 2000s?

In Defense of 4Kids

4Kids entertainment never provided the most faithful anime translations... but was it really one of the top 10 anime villains? Or did it do some good for the...

youtu.be

 

[Charmander4]

No. I grew up watching it and never knew about any major differences between the Japanese version and the dub. And still don’t care. Most of the changes are nitpicks and some had to be done for broadcast television or make things sound fine linguistically. I have no idea why people lose their shit when 4Kids digitally painted over Japanese to translate it to English. Newsflash: Americans can’t read Japanese.

Yeah, I remember watching the Arbok——> Seviper thing and going wtf when it aired and clearly knew it was the dubbing team but I’ll take that and calling rice balls donuts all day long.

The only good thing the current dub has done is that it’s made a lot of the people who were critical of it back then realize how good we had it. So there’s that.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

For this franchise individually? No, because when compared to what TPCi has done to the Pokémon dub overall, it's arguable 4Kids did a genuinely better job overall. I will argue their lows still didn't reach the lows of TPCi in recent times, and their highs far eclipsed TPCi's highs too, IMO.

To start, I liked the old/original ENG voice cast much more compared to what they got replaced with in the current/modern voice ENG cast permanently, whether that is due to better vocal direction or not, better casting or not, etc. is up to one's opinion, but that's one thing I think 4Kids got right here despite the current Ash & TRio TPCi cast doing the roles twice as long by now. Longest =/= best, IMO.

I also really appreciate they never objectively got as bad as TPCi about replacing the OST from XY onward in the last three Series in a row, and even the dub music they composed wasn't THAT bad and seemed to fit in most situations it was placed in (note: most, I didn't say all). There's more dub music in the last 10 years of the dub than in all 8 years of the OG dub, trivia.

Also, their intros were twice as long as all of TPCi's, and that helped make them more memorable in the English run. I also slightly preferred their script writing over TPCi's, as TRio while still rewritten, actually spoke like human beings back in those days in the English dub rather than wannabe poets/Dr. Seuss caricatures, Ash had far less slang & rad-isms in his lines, etc.

Did they still mess up some stuff? Sure, M01 & Chronicles haven't aged well at all, the jelly donuts (TPCi ALSO did it too in the M22 dub, that said), sandwich MS Paint etc. but on the whole it was fun & enjoyable under them from Seasons 1-Season 8 & Movies 6-8 got solid dubs. I'd argue the dub was never the same after they more or less departed, tbh.

Overall? Somewhat justified, but they did give us the OG English dub VA casts for Pokemon & Yu-Gi-Oh as well as the fan hit TMNT 2003 Series, so that buffers some of the travesty that was their One Piece dub (absolute garbage) and most of their other works that turned out badly in Mew Mew Power, Sonic X, etc. (Turtles Forever also kinda sucked, yeah).

The only thing 4Kids deserved the hate for was their ridiculous censorship practices (often parodied on YouTube), but the hate for them was really overblown in hindsight & they did do some things right as well. Al Kahn was a truly warped individual, though, the hate for him was warranted that said but the employees didn't deserve it.

And their voice cast for Shaman King was good enough that the VSI Los Angeles dub brought a lot of them back in the 2021 more faithful dub adaptation, too, there's that.

Re: rice balls, here you go, they did call them what they were a few times too in fairness- but the issue was inconsistency about it:

Rice Balls

Brock makes some Rice Balls.

www.youtube.com

 

[snowmint]

Why does it matter nowadays? They aren't here anymore.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Why does it matter nowadays? They aren't here anymore.

(Technically the studio that dubbed Pokemon & Yu-Gi-Oh for them still dubs Yu-Gi-Oh for Konami as 4KMedia, so still somewhat relevant- unfortunately, the dubs for that Series continue to be bad objectively & Konami taking them under their wing hasn't changed much-- except the video games, a LOT better than their Anime work because they're forced to translate the script faithfully in them & keep the OST tracks in Duel Links/Cross Duel etc. no edits, etc.)

It's sad 4Kids went the Saban, DiC, and Nelvana route later and between losing Pokémon plus the godawful One Piece dub even they tried to hide knowing how dreadful it was, generally caused them to go South quickly to the point that they went bankrupt in 2011 (TPCi has also taken a lot of pages out of 4Kids' book in recent times, unfortunately, seems to be all the bad ones as censorship came back by SM, the music changes are greater than ever before, etc) when they could've gone the FUNi/Crunchyroll LLC, Ocean Group, Viz Media, etc route instead and grown with the times. They were notorious and infamous more because of how big they got as a company at one point with their censorship practices, likely due to the talent of their VA roster IMO, but nonetheless.

The company was shady and mismanaged, but the VA work was legitimately good IMO as were the OPs/intros & they had a good sense of comedy for the Team Rocket Trio. They were also more respectful with Pokémon than everything else they got their hands on overall, even if it still had its flaws (many fans love their TMNT 2003 adaptation, though, oddly enough).

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

It’s due to the internet, information spread so quickly which in turn caused the practice of editing out the source material to be outdated.

The editing was really the biggest problem with 4Kids in general: why they took their censorship so far, I'll never know. Some of it (I don't buy that ALL of it was not on them) was due to the regulations of BS&P on local TV in the SatAM morning bloc where the dubs aired, that said.

For me, OPs/EDs, VA quality, script writing, and music quality take precedence over uncut footage, unlike most, though. I prefer things unedited/uncut, but I'd take a well acted, well written censored/edited product over an uncut, but badly acted and poorly written one (just look at Mastermind of Mirage Pokémon for an example of the latter, even people who like the current VA dub cast won't defend that outing).

I don't like how Saban, DiC, and Nelvana had all the same practices as 4Kids that said, but never (if rarely ever) get called out on it (TPCi has been lately however, but it was unfortunate at the time of the change they weren't, as they even used 4Kids' stock BGM in Seasons 9/10 frequently every other episode among one of their script writers who got past the disgusting purge in late AG in JCC, somehow- likely due to being friends with Larry Juris of TAJ, IMO). Konami still does as well, for that matter...

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Because it might have to do with the timing of when they did the dubs. Saban, DIC, and Nelvana did hack dubs in the 80s and early to mid 90s when anime was a niche. 4kids did it in the 90s and 2000s when anime is becoming popular. So that may be the reason you’d never seen anyone call out Saban, DIC, and Nelvana for that practice.

Likely so. It's a shame 4Kids started out fine with Pokémon, then went the opposite route as time went on as a company (TPCi was never "good" imho and this was the worst footing they could begin on IMO: Pokémon USA recasting controversy - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia, but the last few years from them are downright appalling. Goldfarb's music replacements are what did most in ironically on the current dub but I wish that were its only issues, this is the one Series I'm glad 4Kids dubbed it first for once).

It doesn't entirely make up for how much 4Kids seemed to mangle most Series, but Pokémon was their objective best dub, and the VA work & music handling all around (BGM, OPs) in particular have aged well IMO compared to TPCi's tenure- even the script writing could be good on some days, too, depended on their mood though sadly.

 

[snowmint]

No. I grew up watching it and never knew about any major differences between the Japanese version and the dub. And still don’t care. Most of the changes are nitpicks and some had to be done for broadcast television or make things sound fine linguistically. I have no idea why people lose their shit when 4Kids digitally painted over Japanese to translate it to English. Newsflash: Americans can’t read Japanese.

Yeah, I remember watching the Arbok——> Seviper thing and going wtf when it aired and clearly knew it was the dubbing team but I’ll take that and calling rice balls donuts all day long.

The only good thing the current dub has done is that it’s made a lot of the people who were critical of it back then realize how good we had it. So there’s that.

4kids would remove Japanese text usually NOT replace it with anything though...

 

[snowmint]

Because it might have to do with the timing of when they did the dubs. Saban, DIC, and Nelvana did hack dubs in the 80s and early to mid 90s when anime was a niche. 4kids did it in the 90s and 2000s when anime is becoming popular. So that may be the reason you’d never seen anyone call out Saban, DIC, and Nelvana for that practice.

4kids grabbed properties that had sizable fanbases before hand ie Ultraman Tiga, sonic x, TMNT, one piece...

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

4kids would remove Japanese text usually NOT replace it with anything though...

Indeed true, sometimes they did actually translate it in Season 1 of the Anime dub though IIRC (see below).

There were some random times 4Kids left in the kanji as well, like in "Cheer Pressure" in AG, for some reason?

4kids grabbed properties that had sizable fanbases before hand ie Ultraman Tiga, sonic x, TMNT, one piece...

One Piece was easily their worst outing, even for them, it's so atrocious even they wanted to hide its existence and in that case the license was revoked due to Toei being appalled at its dub (some argue Diraison's Zoro/"Zolo" was good, though, I could see that but it doesn't make up for how much they botched things overall there). Despite being a train-wreck, the VA work is slightly better than the Odex dub, I guess?

Ultraman Tiga was interesting, honestly that was OK-ish IIRC.

TMNT 87 was the OG cartoon, but I think the fan favorite remains their 2003 incarnation, oddly enough (there's been more Turtles since then, 2012 Series, 2019, etc.). They'd let stuff go unedited/uncensored in their cartoons they never let slide in their Anime dubs, why I don't know...

Sonic X was another fail, Jason Griffith got better as Sonic I suppose and a lot of people like it apparently these days (personally I always thought he had awkward deliveries on his lines for years, took him until 2010 to sound natural, and then he got replaced with Roger Craig Smith etc.) and they kind of screwed that one up to me.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Sonic X was just a rehash of the first two adventure games. The games were better anyway. Most Sonic fans personally blame the 4kids cast for the downfall of the franchise.

Even in Japanese, Sonic X wasn’t very good, I can agree with that.

I’m not sure it’s necessarily 4Kids on that alone (it was one of their worst handled Series though) since even in the Studiopolis Era, a lot of people have been saying Shadow is a shell of his former self with Kirk Thornton and such. “You know what makes you weak, your loyalty to your pathetic friends” and such, the playground bully stuff hasn’t left in the LA Era either. I thought the Adventures cast was the best, personally, though: I grew up with the OG in the cartoon Jaleel White first, though, hasn’t aged well outside Classic Sonic imo.

 

[R.O.B.]

I think they deserved to be laughed at and even mocked for some of the ridiculous censorship and edits, but hate? No...

One Piece was bad but it was just one bad dub and shouldn't be talked about as if everything else was on that level.

 

[Norzan]

Most of the changes are nitpicks

Don't know about Pokemon, but when it came to Yu-Gi-Oh there was nothing nitpicky about criticizing them for severely toning down several aspects of Duel Monsters when it came to tone and characters's backstories. Death is an integral part of the franchise and 4Kids tried their hardest to scrub every mention and implication from it.

Me personally i hated most of the voices 4Kids gave the characters compared to their japanese counterparts, giving them dumb New York accents like for Joey and such.

But yeah, i don't think they deserve to be hated exactly, but they deserve to be mocked for making a bunch of changes that made the shows actively worse in a dumb attempt to not piss off parents.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Don't know about Pokemon, but when it came to Yu-Gi-Oh there was nothing nitpicky about criticizing them for severely toning down several aspects of Duel Monsters when it came to tone and characters's backstories. Death is an integral part of the franchise and 4Kids tried their hardest to scrub every mention and implication from it.

Me personally i hated most of the voices 4Kids gave the characters compared to their japanese counterparts, giving them dumb New York accents like for Joey and such.

But yeah, i don't think they deserve to be hated exactly, but they deserve to be mocked for making a bunch of changes that made the shows actively worse in a dumb attempt to not piss off parents.

I've always said for years 4Kids did (and still do under Konami) a worse job with Yu-Gi-Oh than Pokémon, I'm surprised people have let that Series' dub go uncriticized but it's like what the FUNimation dub of DBZ is for people on YouTube: above criticism of any kind due to massive nostalgia for it with 4Kids' dub of Yu-Gi-Oh DM, if you try it these days.

That said, I actually think the voice casting was mostly fine for it, and not really the issue there so much as the censorship or script/music changes, or at least notably better than the Odex/Singapore VAs for that Series. If you thought the 4Kids VAs weren't good, listen to Odex/Singapore English dub Bakura among a host of others from the more Uncut dub- sounds like Herbert the Pervert from Family Guy:

https://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/voice-compare/Yu-Gi-Oh/Bakura/

I'd agree with that.

 

[Norzan]

To me it makes the show more diverse and more enjoyable in the dub than in the Japanese version.

Don't really care about how diverse the voices are when most of them are grating and really annoying. Some don't even sound like a person would actually sound and more like a voice someone would do to mock someone.

 

[ekatheparas]

Honestly, I feel as if 4Kids is just that specific sort of company who simply doesn't care about what they do half of the time. The censorship was honestly quite amusing, but wasn't it a waste of valuable time and money? The voice casting is pretty good in my opinion, for Yu Gi Oh, and excellent for Pokemon (most of the time). It really captured the characters of their time.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I've always said for years 4Kids did (and still do under Konami) a worse job with Yu-Gi-Oh than Pokémon, I'm surprised people have let that Series' dub go uncriticized but it's like what the FUNimation dub of DBZ is for people on YouTube: above criticism of any kind due to massive nostalgia for it with 4Kids' dub of Yu-Gi-Oh DM, if you try it these days.

The DM dub did get plenty of criticism back in the day. At least it wasn't uncommon based on what I remember, especially at the height of the 4Kids hate. There was a whole site devoted to showing the differences between both the Japanese and English versions too. A lot of fans still have nostalgic fondness for the dub, including me. It was my introduction into the franchise, so it does hold a special place for me, but it never really felt above criticism exactly. There has been plenty of dub vs. sub arguments in this fanbase for as long as I can remember too.

As for the topic at hand, I do think that 4Kids made plenty of questionable to bad choices with their dubs, not just with Pokemon. Pokemon was often considered one of their best dubs, which may not mean a lot given most of their dubs are not fondly remembered, but it still had some weird edits. I think it's pretty pointless to hate them now. They are effectively gone. The remains of 4Kids became 4K Media, which is now Konami Cross Media, and they continue to dub Yu-Gi-Oh! series and games, but 4Kids as a company has been gone for a long time.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

But it wasn’t as negatively criticized as their dub for One Piece. Yugioh is still classified as a shonen anime, but it as has a Pokemon vibe to it.

Because it was at least better than their back-alley abortion of a One Piece dub, in fairness.

The DM dub did get plenty of criticism back in the day. At least it wasn't uncommon based on what I remember, especially at the height of the 4Kids hate. There was a whole site devoted to showing the differences between both the Japanese and English versions too. A lot of fans still have nostalgic fondness for the dub, including me. It was my introduction into the franchise, so it does hold a special place for me, but it never really felt above criticism exactly. There has been plenty of dub vs. sub arguments in this fanbase for as long as I can remember too.

As for the topic at hand, I do think that 4Kids made plenty of questionable to bad choices with their dubs, not just with Pokemon. Pokemon was often considered one of their best dubs, which may not mean a lot given most of their dubs are not fondly remembered, but it still had some weird edits. I think it's pretty pointless to hate them now. They are effectively gone. The remains of 4Kids became 4K Media, which is now Konami Cross Media, and they continue to dub Yu-Gi-Oh! series and games, but 4Kids as a company has been gone for a long time.

Back then, true, but generally agreed with all this: I still maintain their voice cast was at least better than the Odex/Singapore one, I would even take Brooklyn-accented Jonouchi "Joey" over Dwayne Tan's performance, personally, it was really how they handled everything else that was the issue (the dub IIRC started out better in Duelist Kingdom than what it became as it went on, but that's par for the course with 4Kids, a lot of their earlier work held up better than their later work in general, with a few exceptions such as the later Pokemon Movie dubs compared to their first few and the TMNT 2003 cartoon).

 

[snowmint]

But it wasn’t as negatively criticized as their dub for One Piece. Yugioh is still classified as a shonen anime, but it as has a Pokemon vibe to it.

Nah it's basically the one piece situation.

 

[snowmint]

Honestly, I feel as if 4Kids is just that specific sort of company who simply doesn't care about what they do half of the time. The censorship was honestly quite amusing, but wasn't it a waste of valuable time and money? The voice casting is pretty good in my opinion, for Yu Gi Oh, and excellent for Pokemon (most of the time). It really captured the characters of their time.

4kids was creating their dubs with the broadcast standards of kidswb and fox in mind. Kidswb being more stricter than fox which is why we got the stupid purple fire edits in yugioh while fire was left alone on Fox anime dubs.