Was the people’s hatred towards 4kids really justified?

[Mr. MoonStone]

I don't feel strongly about either 4Kids or TPCi, I just think the way the anime is dubbed and distributed nowadays is insanely archaic. Children these days grow up and are more media literate than ever when it comes to anime due to the sheer ubiquity of the medium. Outside of localization efforts to the match the game, I can't find any valid reason to remove music, censor scenes, or treat the series with such...cheapness? I don't know if that's the best word to use lol but it certainly feels that way.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

I don't feel strongly about either 4Kids or TPCi, I just think the way the anime is dubbed and distributed nowadays is insanely archaic. Children these days grow up and are more media literate than ever when it comes to anime due to the sheer ubiquity of the medium. Outside of localization efforts to the match the game, I can't find any valid reason to remove music, censor scenes, or treat the series with such...cheapness? I don't know if that's the best word to use lol but it certainly feels that way.

In 2023, censorship and music replacement, script rewrites, etc. are 100% outdated indeed in re: to KCM/4KM and TPCi's handling of dubs these days & it stands out like a sore thumb in regards to how every other Anime is dubbed these days faithfully (it might be why the two are the lone Series I feel the older English dubs were genuinely better for, esp. PKMN, as YGO always suffered from what it still does to a degree prior as well, DSOD excluded as I thought that was the best Yu-Gi-Oh dubbed material put out by 4KMedia/Konami Cross NY save the 9 episode Uncut 4Kids/FUNi Duel Monsters dub that got cancelled in English).

In 1998 to circa 2007, that was all fairly commonplace for most dubbers, and I think for its time the 4Kids Pokémon dub was one of the better (if not best) Anime dub aimed at children in regards to its production (its contemporaries were Saban/Ocean DBZ then FUNi DBZ which replaced all the music and had similar script alterations if not more excessive, DiC Sailor Moon, Nelvana Beyblade, all their own other dubs which were worse, etc.).

It's impressive how in 2023, their version of Pokémon still has managed to be the lone dub 4Kids did that can have a legitimate argument/case made for it that it surpassed its successor in the TPCi dub in multiple aspects beyond the voice acting to me though- but I agree with most that was its greatest asset I feel TPCi never managed to meet the bar for across multiple productions- I've seen Origins, Generations which sucked in this department IMO, Twilight Wings, etc. etc. dubbed, still feel the original Eng VAs weren't topped for anyone really so it's not a new NY thing issue specifically there.

For instance, the music handling was objectively better in terms of how much of the OST was kept in both the Anime & Movies- it never got as bad as it did in XY onward under them, not even at the end in the Anime did it get to the 2015+ levels and outside of the first 3 Movies, was not an issue for them later in the Movies on the flip side. Ironically, TPCi had 4 movies majority dub scored.

4Kids also kept certain things unedited even at their worst about it that were censored in the JN dub at the very end just now believe it or not, and the OPs/intros were 45 sec-1 min long compared to TPCi's 28-30 sec ones. Additionally, the TRio dialogue was largely more comprehensible even if they were still the most re-written characters back then as well.

Examples of pieces of the OST 4Kids kept at least one or more times in their English dub that TPCi never kept, as trivia:

Pokémon Anime BGM - OK! (Piano Ballad Arrangement) (1999~2001-M37) (It was kept in the dub of Season 3 in "Johto Journeys" four times, and never again, not in S09 when TPCi took over and it played in "Time Warp Heals All Wounds" in Japanese)
Pokémon Anime BGM - Life's Purpose (1999~2001-M32) (See above, replaced in the final episode in dub Season 25 in JN147 but it was kept one time prior in S03's dub)
Pokémon Anime BGM - S.S. Aqua (1999~2001-M21) (This was kept in the dubs of Season 5 in "Master Quest" when Ash battles Harrison as well as in Season 7 "Advanced Challenge" in "A Double Dilemma," not under TPCi though in 2 instances it played in DP's OG Japanese Version in Seasons 10-12)

 

[Herbizarre]

In France, we did get some franchises where the 4kids edits were still present, namely Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh, but due to the dubbing directions being likely different, I can only speak about the edits and how the dialogues were handled. Back then, I didn't really pay much attention and just enjoyed the shows, but after watching a Yu-Gi-Oh episode in french a month ago, I did notice how some additional dialogues were added (I'm talking about an edit where a character is heard speaking, but not actually seen speaking on-screen). But aside of that, I didn't mind how 4kids handled some shows, especially since we got some animes that took after the japanese script instead of 4kids's (that one being Sonic X).

As far as censorship goes in french dubs, the 4kids edits have a competitor with AB France back in the late 80s /early 90s (for Dragon Ball fans, the AB France scripts of that anime's movies were the basis of the "Big Green" dub), which did see a lot of its more mature anime being censored. For context, AB France bought rights to import and dub a lot of anime franchises without looking at their contents too much, leading to stuff like Hokuto no Ken being showcased at time slots where kids are most likely to watch the T.V... I'm not joking. So of course, the comparaison will be made here. Whereas 4kids specialized in a lot of admittedly unnecessary edits and dialogue changes, AB France simply cuts certain parts of an anime episode if it was deemed too violent for kids, and while there are dialogue changes as well, some french dubbed animes like Hokuto no Ken or "Love me, my Knight" went further by either making the whole dub feel more like a parody version, or made so much changes in terms of overall settings by claiming something that's obviously in Japan is actually part of Paris. Mind you, it wasn't all bad, in fact a lot of french voice actors are well recognized here in France.

One noteworthy example of an anime that was heavily edited yet well-received in France was City Hunter, or "Nicky Larson" as it was renamed here. Name changes, setting changes (having a strip club being rebranded as a vegetarian restaurant, just to name an example), absurd dialogues at times and 90% of the bad guys being voiced by the same person with the same voice type... This one had it all. And yet, because the voice actors were giving their A-game, some dialogues remaining intact despite the subject being unsuitable for kids (one episode kept some lines about drug-dealing), and many exchanges being genuinely funny despite derailing a bit from the original script, this led to that anime's success in France. Heck, that anime's notoriety led to the City Hunter's 2018 french movie "Nicky Larson et le parfum de Cupidon"'s making and success.

I went on a bit of a tangeant here, but I'd say 4kids's edits... For some animes like One Piece, the hatred might be warranted, but for everything else, AB France was a fierce competitor in comparaison.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

In France, we did get some franchises where the 4kids edits were still present, namely Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh, but due to the dubbing directions being likely different, I can only speak about the edits and how the dialogues were handled. Back then, I didn't really pay much attention and just enjoyed the shows, but after watching a Yu-Gi-Oh episode in french a month ago, I did notice how some additional dialogues were added (I'm talking about an edit where a character is heard speaking, but not actually seen speaking on-screen). But aside of that, I didn't mind how 4kids handled some shows, especially since we got some animes that took after the japanese script instead of 4kids's (that one being Sonic X).

As far as censorship goes in french dubs, the 4kids edits have a competitor with AB France back in the late 80s /early 90s (for Dragon Ball fans, the AB France scripts of that anime's movies were the basis of the "Big Green" dub), which did see a lot of its more mature anime being censored. For context, AB France bought rights to import and dub a lot of anime franchises without looking at their contents too much, leading to stuff like Hokuto no Ken being showcased at time slots where kids are most likely to watch the T.V... I'm not joking. So of course, the comparaison will be made here. Whereas 4kids specialized in a lot of admittedly unnecessary edits and dialogue changes, AB France simply cuts certain parts of an anime episode if it was deemed too violent for kids, and while there are dialogue changes as well, some french dubbed animes like Hokuto no Ken or "Love me, my Knight" went further by either making the whole dub feel more like a parody version, or made so much changes in terms of overall settings by claiming something that's obviously in Japan is actually part of Paris. Mind you, it wasn't all bad, in fact a lot of french voice actors are well recognized here in France.

One noteworthy example of an anime that was heavily edited yet well-received in France was City Hunter, or "Nicky Larson" as it was renamed here. Name changes, setting changes (having a strip club being rebranded as a vegetarian restaurant, just to name an example), absurd dialogues at times and 90% of the bad guys being voiced by the same person with the same voice type... This one had it all. And yet, because the voice actors were giving their A-game, some dialogues remaining intact despite the subject being unsuitable for kids (one episode kept some lines about drug-dealing), and many exchanges being genuinely funny despite derailing a bit from the original script, this led to that anime's success in France. Heck, that anime's notoriety led to the City Hunter's 2018 french movie "Nicky Larson et le parfum de Cupidon"'s making and success.

I went on a bit of a tangeant here, but I'd say 4kids's edits... For some animes like One Piece, the hatred might be warranted, but for everything else, AB France was a fierce competitor in comparaison.

I genuinely liked their Pokemon dub more than TPCi's like most, and I think they had better VA work than the former, Odex/Singapore, and as mentioned AB France as well as AB Groupe that did French based English dubs of the Dragonball Z Movies (save David Gasman's Bardock, terrible stuff).

 

[snowmint]

The history of anime in a lot of other countries is unique to say the least. Crazy how 4kids clawed their way into other countries too via their versions of their dubs.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

The history of anime in a lot of other countries is unique to say the least. Crazy how 4kids clawed their way into other countries too via their versions of their dubs.

They really did, there are some Series that began with 4Kids-dubbed material like Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds but then went to the Japanese Version as a base instead like Germany in later Seasons.

 

[Poke Trey]

The history of anime in a lot of other countries is unique to say the least. Crazy how 4kids clawed their way into other countries too via their versions of their dubs.

And how other countries were allowed to do more unique intros than the english originals.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

And how other countries were allowed to do more unique intros than the english originals.

It depends, really, Italy did their own OPs differently from 4Kids and TPCi in the franchise but a lot of the other English speaking nations used the 4Kids OPs first and then the TPCi OPs as a base for their own version intros (Germany examples below)...

Pokémon-Titelsongs – Hoenn-Region

Jetzt geht‘s in die Hoenn-Region, Trainer! Diese Titelsongs gehören zur Etappe Rubin und Saphir von Pokémon – Die TV-Serie. Habt ihr eure Pokémon-Reise mit A...

www.youtube.com

 

[snowmint]

It depends, really, Italy did their own OPs differently from 4Kids and TPCi in the franchise but a lot of the other English speaking nations used the 4Kids OPs first and then the TPCi OPs as a base for their own version intros (Germany examples below)...

Pokémon-Titelsongs – Hoenn-Region

Jetzt geht‘s in die Hoenn-Region, Trainer! Diese Titelsongs gehören zur Etappe Rubin und Saphir von Pokémon – Die TV-Serie. Habt ihr eure Pokémon-Reise mit A...

www.youtube.com

Is there a reason your not talking about the voice work of the path to the peak pokemon miniseries on YouTube?

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Is there a reason your not talking about the voice work of the path to the peak pokemon miniseries on YouTube?

It's actually pretty good, I guess it's just not fully relevant to thread as to why? I like it way more than what Pilon did with Masters (Nemona is awful, IMO), the only correlation is like Crispin Freeman, Kathy Pilon went from a script writer in the 4Kids dub of Pokemon to a voice director in Masters & Path to the Peak on YouTube.

 

[MrDarkcatify]

Except the Japanese Version isn't legally available in English to this day to clarify, only fansubs, just like 4Kids before them TPCi has yet to do so as well so I wouldn't say it makes it wholly per se easier to stomach per se as it's solely with the rise of the Internet us fans gained access to these Series Uncut, if nothing else. I do agree they would've been kinder to them if they had made the Japanese Version legal (they started to do this on something called Toonzaki before they went defunct around 2009-2010 tbf with their other Series), but we would be to TPCi as well if they did right now: sadly, neither company ended up doing this so we've basically been relying on fansubs for 25 years now to watch Pocket Monsters in its original Japanese format (thus we don't tend to often get proper English script translations of the Japanese dialogue, that's the real issue per se for me).

Kaiba is in fact Eric Stuart in the English dub, and he was also 4Kids era Brock (the original English VA for him) and James' 2nd English dub VA (the iconic, beloved one by many to clarify): I agree he was a good VA, shame he doesn't do as much anymore but I hope he thinks of doing LA-based VA work in the future instead of staying stuck in TN only as a lot of Pokemon VAs past & present have made the move to CA in lieu of NY's dubs basically dying out over the years. Curious what you thought of the Odex version's voice acting, for Yu-Gi-Oh? I thought it was actually below 4Kids' tier in that Series, personally (the Odex dub is unlike TPCi's dub here fully Uncut, kept all the OST & had a faithful script translation, but the VA work is grating for me).

Depends what lot of "Pokémon VAs past & present" you referred to? originals and currents?

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Depends what lot of "Pokémon VAs past & present" you referred to? originals and currents?

Correct, originals and currents, yes.

 

[MrDarkcatify]

Correct, originals and currents, yes.

Like Originals such as Rachael Lillis and Veronica Taylor plus Current Bill Rogers, Michelle Knotz and Sarah Natochenny?

 

[SushiBurrito]

They made insulting comments like "some fans would only be happy if we broadcast the shows in Japanese with subtitles" and took their xenophobia to the extreme. A rice ball is too Japanese? Got to change it to a fucking sandwich? And 4kids, children in America know what the fuck ramen is, the cheap microwavable ramen was a staple lunch in most working class homes, you don't have to call it chicken noodle soup you out of touch boomers.

Yes the hate for them was justified.


ETA: Throwing my two cents in on the Yu-gi-oh thing. KidsWB BS&P only excuses things like finger guns and energy disk sending people to the shadow realm when the show airs on their network. There's this wonderful little thing called dvd that isn't beholden to broadcast standards and practice. They could have released the show uncut from the beginning on dvd.

Even Funimation during their shitty music replacement and Monster Truck narrator and Krillin in Da House days starting releasing the show uncut at the beginning of season 3 and made the Japanese audio available as soon as they started releasing the show on DVD.

U

 

[snowmint]

They made insulting comments like "some fans would only be happy if we broadcast the shows in Japanese with subtitles" and took their xenophobia to the extreme. A rice ball is too Japanese? Got to change it to a fucking sandwich? And 4kids, children in America know what the fuck ramen is, the cheap microwavable ramen was a staple lunch in most working class homes, you don't have to call it chicken noodle soup you out of touch boomers.

Yes the hate for them was justified.


ETA: Throwing my two cents in on the Yu-gi-oh thing. KidsWB BS&P only excuses things like finger guns and energy disk sending people to the shadow realm when the show airs on their network. There's this wonderful little thing called dvd that isn't beholden to broadcast standards and practice. They could have released the show uncut from the beginning on dvd.

Even Funimation during their shitty music replacement and Monster Truck narrator and Krillin in Da House days starting releasing the show uncut at the beginning of season 3 and made the Japanese audio available as soon as they started releasing the show on DVD.

U

That sadly just wasn't 4kids MO.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Yes the hate for them was justified.

I'll agree to disagree, their Pokémon dub was superior to TPCi's in most ways to me (like most) and Japanophobia aside, they did a lot of good for this franchise IMO in comparison to their successors to me. I also think for all their flaws with the Americanization, they did give us a lot of iconic English VA casts for Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh: can't ever fully hate them for that, despite their defunct status a lot of memorable VAs got their starts due to the infamous company.

In no way did a rice ball being called/made into a sandwich or doing silly stuff like calling Pokemon the wrong name, hurt my opinion of the Series nearly as much as the VA change did, or the script writing style change, or Ed Goldfarb's style of music in this franchise for examples: not to say 4Kids' style of censorship was not absolutely dumb and unnecessary, sure, but it was on screen for like 10 seconds at a time.

Re: FUNi, too bad they didn't treat their dub of DBZ remotely well until the 2005 orange bricks itself and like Pokemon the VA change got ire at the time from Ocean/Saban (I think the DB cast improved, Pokemon otoh...opposite): I think it's interesting because FUNimation started out terrible but got better to the point they have a foothold over so many Anime via Crunchyroll LLC in their current incarnation- 4Kids, sadly, the reverse save the Pokemon Movies/Pikachu Shorts (those actually got better dubs over time, surprisingly), and the Uncut releases of YGO/SK they dd in 2004-2006. TPCi, Saban, DiC, and Nelvana were/are just as guilty of the same as 4Kids was and same boat as well IMO, though, I still think it was overblown overall.

 

[SushiBurrito]

I'll agree to disagree, their Pokémon dub was superior to TPCi's in most ways to me (like most) and Japanophobia aside, they did a lot of good for this franchise IMO in comparison to their successors to me. I also think for all their flaws with the Americanization, they did give us a lot of iconic English VA casts for Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh: can't ever fully hate them for that, despite their defunct status a lot of memorable VAs got their starts due to the infamous company.

In no way did a rice ball being called/made into a sandwich or doing silly stuff like calling Pokemon the wrong name, hurt my opinion of the Series nearly as much as the VA change did, or the script writing style change, or Ed Goldfarb's style of music in this franchise for examples: not to say 4Kids' style of censorship was not absolutely dumb and unnecessary, sure, but it was on screen for like 10 seconds at a time.

Re: FUNi, too bad they didn't treat their dub of DBZ remotely well until the 2005 orange bricks itself and like Pokemon the VA change got ire at the time from Ocean/Saban (I think the DB cast improved, Pokemon otoh...opposite): I think it's interesting because FUNimation started out terrible but got better to the point they have a foothold over so many Anime via Crunchyroll LLC in their current incarnation- 4Kids, sadly, the reverse save the Pokemon Movies/Pikachu Shorts (those actually got better dubs over time, surprisingly), and the Uncut releases of YGO/SK they dd in 2004-2006. TPCi, Saban, DiC, and Nelvana were/are just as guilty of the same as 4Kids was and same boat as well IMO, though, I still think it was overblown overall.

Doing better than TPCI is an incredibly low bar to clear. I think I've said it before it's really quite embarrassing how long they've been doing the voices and they're still that bad. The Funimation cast for Dragon Ball Z was awful too but they started to show improvement around the Buu saga and pretty much had it down by Kai. The TPCI cast should not have sounded as awful as they did all the way into Master Journeys.

I'm kind of astounded at the love the 4kids Yu-gi-oh is getting nowadays. Yugi sounded ridiculous for a 16 year old boy, Jounouchi had an unnecessary and irritating Brooklyn accent, Eric Stuart's Kaiba was one note, Marik sounded like the Green Goblin etc. Must be the nostalgia talking.


Did calling rice balls (insert whatever they felt like calling it that day) ruin Pokemon? No. Was it xenophobic and proved how out of touch 4kids was? Absolutely.

And yes 4kids and Funimation had pretty much opposite trajectories. Funimation started out awful and got better until they became the top dogs in North America Anime dubbing. 4kids started out okay, with many anime fans praising the Pokemon dub for being one of the best tv dubs of the time but they got worse and worse before they became synonymous with butchering anime. The main thing is Funimation actually listened to the fans. They started using the Japanese music after fans complained about the replacement score (ironic given the baffling praise the Faulconer score gets these days....again nostalgia), they made subtitles available for their home release, they started adapting their scripts more faithfully. 4kids just dismissed fan complaints and insulted them.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Doing better than TPCI is an incredibly low bar to clear. I think I've said it before it's really quite embarrassing how long they've been doing the voices and they're still that bad. The Funimation cast for Dragon Ball Z was awful too but they started to show improvement around the Buu saga and pretty much had it down by Kai. The TPCI cast should not have sounded as awful as they did all the way into Master Journeys.

I'm kind of astounded at the love the 4kids Yu-gi-oh is getting nowadays. Yugi sounded ridiculous for a 16 year old boy, Jounouchi had an unnecessary and irritating Brooklyn accent, Eric Stuart's Kaiba was one note, Marik sounded like the Green Goblin etc. Must be the nostalgia talking.


Did calling rice balls (insert whatever they felt like calling it that day) ruin Pokemon? No. Was it xenophobic and proved how out of touch 4kids was? Absolutely.

And yes 4kids and Funimation had pretty much opposite trajectories. Funimation started out awful and got better until they became the top dogs in North America Anime dubbing. 4kids started out okay, with many anime fans praising the Pokemon dub for being one of the best tv dubs of the time but they got worse and worse before they became synonymous with butchering anime. The main thing is Funimation actually listened to the fans. They started using the Japanese music after fans complained about the replacement score (ironic given the baffling praise the Faulconer score gets these days....again nostalgia), they made subtitles available for their home release, they started adapting their scripts more faithfully. 4kids just dismissed fan complaints and insulted them.

I agree with that sentiment, but the script writing and music handling seemed to get worse than 4Kids ever was under TPCi to clarify in regards to especially Team Rocket as well as the amount of OST overhauled from XY onward respectively, so it wasn't just the voice acting IMO: I agree it's a low bar for 4Kids to clear, though, but they did manage that with re: to the Ash Anime and I think they deserve that much credit during their tenure.

I think Yugi sounded fine, Yami otoh I'll concede sounded like a gruff man and that voice baffles me as to the praise it gets: I liked Green/Snyder's take in Season 1 about as much as Kazama's, before the deep manly voice came in. Joey's Brooklyn accent I think likely was due to his honorifics in Japanese matching his impolite mannerisms at times, but yeah, I could see how it's ridiculous to some. I DO think Stuart's Kaiba was not as good as his Brock, James, or Gourry were at their best, but a lot of people online do seem to like it, and I think he did better than the sarcastic ass he was made to be in the 4Kids dub of the Anime in the recent Dark Side of Dimensions Movie dubbed in 2017 (he actually won an award for it from BTVA for the best dub VA performance in that film in English, not a joke). Marik, I'll agree there, that was annoying 100%. I will give 4Kids this, though, the Odex/Singapore dub had largely worse VA casting so I think part of the love given to its nowadays is due to knowing (like with TPCI) it can be so much worse per se.

That's fair.

Yup, that is true, although tbf toward the end of their tenure 4Kids did start to release English subbed Japanese Anime of the properties they dubbed under Toonzaki tbf (by the time they started to listen a little more to the fans, though, it was far too little too late). I think they DID do some good things, though, like Pokemon and the TMNT 2003 cartoon so I think the ire wasn't FULLY deserved per se. Is it possibly good they went the way of the dodo like Saban, DiC, and Nelvana is largely going now? Perhaps, but it put a lot of very talented VAs into retirement and musicians IMO, so there's that drawback.

 

[snowmint]

Dumb question but did the 4kids dub ever say the word Kanto in the OS series dub at all or anytime during their tenure?

 

[Hidden Mew]

Dumb question but did the 4kids dub ever say the word Kanto in the OS series dub at all or anytime during their tenure?

I'm positive that they never mentioned Kanto during the original series's dub. I don't recall it coming up during the original series at least. They did finally call it Kanto during the Battle Frontier though.