Was the people’s hatred towards 4kids really justified?

[Poke Trey]

I don't even know If the 4kids dub would survive in today's climate and not just be there cuz of nostalgia.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

I don't even know If the 4kids dub would survive in today's climate and not just be there cuz of nostalgia.

TPCi's dub also did censorship, script changes/rewrites, replaced OST tracks, etc. so I'm pretty sure 4Kids' dub would've survived in today's climate as their successors largely continued their practices for the most part & it's still going onward to the end (even censoring a few things 4Kids got away with in the old dub recently in SM-JN & replacing more of the OST than 4Kids did in their dub from late BW onward).

 

[snowmint]

Is the poke anime actually popular with the target audience thought? So many things are out there for kids to play and watch. I thought 4kids heavily removed Japanese culture... Yet still kept or added things aike Spanish, French culture, accent, dialect etc in their dubs... I know it was a "different time" back then, but geez.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Is the poke anime actually popular with the target audience thought? So many things are out there for kids to play and watch. I thought 4kids heavily removed Japanese culture... Yet still kept or added things aike Spanish, French culture, accent, dialect etc in their dubs... I know it was a "different time" back then, but geez.

It's still fairly popular with the target audience (5 to 12 year olds, obviously), otherwise it wouldn't keep running.

They actually did, ironically 4Kids let Brock's maracas slide in late OS + AG, as well as a Ludicolo dressed guy dancing in AG, so Spanish culture was A-OK for them. French culture, too, they even had the "Salon Roque is ready" thing from James in mid Kanto, IIRC. It was just Japan, I guess? Weird, but indeed normal for the time period (there are a handful of times they would leave in Japanese culture rarely, oddly, Shihan is not a term I ever expected 4Kids to keep given the Americanization philosophy, Kimono, or Dojo but they kept those in this Series).

 

[snowmint]

The "channel hopping" worries me obviously...

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

The "channel hopping" worries me obviously...

Is this re: the Comic Con Presentation? That's a bit worrying...any news on Goldfarb returning or not yet, edits, etc?

 

[snowmint]

Is this re: the Comic Con Presentation? That's a bit worrying...any news on Goldfarb returning or not yet, edits, etc?

No, its in relation to the dub channel hopping so much. Syndication to kidswb to CN to Disney XD to Netflix etc.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

No, its in relation to the dub channel hopping so much. Syndication to kidswb to CN to Disney XD to Netflix etc.

Oh, gotcha, yeah it's been hopping across the place over the years.

In the 4Kids Era, it was on syndication in UPN for early Kanto in 1998, then moved to Kids WB for the remainder of its run come mid Kanto's "The Problem with Paras" in the US until July 2006 (reruns aired on CN, either on Toonami or Miguzi back then, IIRC).

Pokemon Kids' WB! Premiere Bumper - Saturday, February 13, 1999

This bumper was shown before the premiere of Pokemon ('The Problem With Paras') on Kids' WB! on Saturday, February 13, 1999. Pokemon became an overnight rat...

www.youtube.com

Then, it moved to CN in the TPCi Era on Sept 8, 2006, until around 2016, then moved to Disney XD for SM until that Series ended, and lastly, on Netflix since JN (who knows on HZ, expecting Netflix again though).

 

[Hidden Mew]

4Kids actually did have Brock say rice balls were rice balls a few times, to be fair:

Rice Balls

Brock makes some Rice Balls.

www.youtube.com

The problem was they were inconsistent about it, and couldn't decide whether to just name them as is (there are a few more times they did so, all in Hoenn ironically after mid Kanto), so went with the "Americanization" route of popcorn balls/eclairs/sandwiches etc. It was dumb, but it was what they reasoned would make the show "universal" overseas. I kind of get the logic, but find it unnecessary & pointless as well. Sure, some people are scared of different cultures, but no one would have trouble with a little Japanese culture included IMO (they kept Dojos multiple times in their Pokemon dub, Shihan in the Johto dub in a filler episode IIRC, etc.)!

I don't think that in any way, is equally as important as voice acting, script writing, music, intros, etc. The audio aspects of something are what I tend to prioritize over visual censorship, unlike some, though: I find the latter pointless, but it in no way impacts the end product as much as the former, IMO (TPCi is guilty of the latter as well, though, the show itself is white-washed overseas these days as is via OLM IMO, hence we have sandwiches in HZ now too- the most recent example of an onigiri was from Lana in SM IIRC).

The inconsistent with rice balls was so weird. They kept flipping between different terms pretty much every time they showed up in the original series. It lasted a bit with AG where Brock was upset that Team Rocket stole his four sandwiches only for them to use the term rice ball and I think stick with it a few episodes later with Serviper's capture episode. It's a minor thing all things considered, but it was so strange that they couldn't decide on what to call rice balls for basically a full series.

To be fair, I don't think that Horizon using sandwiches is necessarily an example of the show being white-washed overseas. Assuming that was the episode where they have a picnic, I'm fairly certain that they're just trying to tie in with how picnics work in Scarlet/Violet. The anime has shown considerably less Japanese culture over the years though, at least from what I understand.

No, its in relation to the dub channel hopping so much. Syndication to kidswb to CN to Disney XD to Netflix etc.

To be fair, they stayed on Kids' WB and Cartoon Network for a number of years, so they didn't have short runs and they kind of had to move to different channels when they did too. Kids' WB only lasted another year or two, so even if they kept it on that block, it wouldn't have been around for much longer. While they couldn't finish the rest of AG on the block, it was still better to move the series then just so that DP would have started its run on Cartoon Network as opposed to the middle of its run. Cartoon Network initially treated the anime quite well. I remember that they gave Battle Frontier and the first DP quite a few promos. Even the Hearthome Tag Battle arc was put on a primetime slot. But they started putting the anime on the backburner since BW. There were far less promos, rerun slots and episodes were put at 7AM on Saturday mornings. There was no fanfare for the Kalos League, which despite its infamous conclusion still should have gotten something, and despite the huge success of Pokemon Go at its launch and the franchise's 20th anniversary at the time, it was clear that Cartoon Network wasn't interested in the anime. They had been moving further away from third party titles for years, so while it was still a bit surprising to see that they weren't going to air the anime, it was a long time coming.

The gap between Disney XD and moving to Netflix is noticeably smaller and I can understand that concern. Disney XD was treating the series significantly better than Cartoon Network had for years with a good consistent premiere slot, plenty of promos and reruns slots. I think that the move to Netflix was at least in part because of accessibility. As much as I appreciate how Disney XD treated the anime, it was still a premium cable channel and in an age where more and more people are cutting cable out entirely, that probably wasn't the best place to put the anime. Despite all of the bad decisions Netflix has made and continues to make, they're still one of, if not the biggest streaming platform around. More households would have Netflix than Disney XD by comparison. Even with them taking way too long to release new batches of episodes, I'm still certain that Pokemon Journeys has more exposure through Netflix than they would have if the series was still airing on Disney XD.

I also initially thought that Disney XD could have been taken off the air since out of all the Disney Channels, it's easily the most expendable, but that clearly didn't happen. I wouldn't be surprised if TPCI also thought that was a possibility given that it's basically a rerun channel and they would want to put more resources into Disney+ too.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

The inconsistent with rice balls was so weird. They kept flipping between different terms pretty much every time they showed up in the original series. It lasted a bit with AG where Brock was upset that Team Rocket stole his four sandwiches only for them to use the term rice ball and I think stick with it a few episodes later with Serviper's capture episode. It's a minor thing all things considered, but it was so strange that they couldn't decide on what to call rice balls for basically a full series.

To be fair, I don't think that Horizon using sandwiches is necessarily an example of the show being white-washed overseas. Assuming that was the episode where they have a picnic, I'm fairly certain that they're just trying to tie in with how picnics work in Scarlet/Violet. The anime has shown considerably less Japanese culture over the years though, at least from what I understand.

Basically yes save one last time when they had Brock say “Our rice balls are now slush balls” in the episode where Ash’s Corphish debuted: it was also odd that then they went with rolling sandwich edits but then in their last 12 or so episodes, left the rice balls alone and intact without any edits at the very end of Season 8. 4Kids could never decide whether to play it straight, or dodge it and pretend they were something else.

In general, yes, after Johto especially the Japanese culture roots died down in the main Series, but after Sinnoh it almost completely faded away entirely (I have a feeling it has to do with 4Kids’ desire initially to make the show “universal” and then later TPCi’s desire to continue that into BW essentially, respectively). That’s true, as well, to be fair on Roy’s sandwiches but in general to clarify the Japanese roots of the Anime have kind of faded into obscurity these days even in its native Language.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

I never got their avoidance of rice balls. One, even though I'm American I can find rice balls at the store pretty easily. For a while they even sold them at the discount grocery. And two, everyone knows what rice is. It's used all over the world in thousands of cultures. The concept of forming it into a ball will be understood universally even if an onigiri is unknown to the viewer.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

I never got their avoidance of rice balls. One, even though I'm American I can find rice balls at the store pretty easily. For a while they even sold them at the discount grocery. And two, everyone knows what rice is. It's used all over the world in thousands of cultures. The concept of forming it into a ball will be understood universally even if an onigiri is unknown to the viewer.

This is the closest insight we'll get into the 4Kids & rice balls debacle, what Eric Stuart said the "logic" was for it was this:

Eric Stuart Explains Why 4Kids Called Onigiri (Rice Balls) As Jelly Filled Donuts in Pokemon

New Answers To The Porygon Dub Debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAIuf4lZCE - Unless you have been hiding under a rock for more than 20 years, you know...

www.youtube.com

They had a situation in their One Piece dub, which was obviously the worst thing they ever did by far & on the exact reverse flip side of their Pokémon main Series dub IMO, where they did another...

4kids one piece Vanilla rice (WTF)

The shittiest thing everCopyright: Echiiro Oda, 4kids

www.youtube.com

(To my knowledge, Pokémon & One Piece are the only 4Kids dubs they ever said the word "rice ball" even once or more than that: I think someone said they did in Kirby once but I can't recall...)

 

[snowmint]

This is the closest insight we'll get into the 4Kids & rice balls debacle, what Eric Stuart said the "logic" was for it was this:

Eric Stuart Explains Why 4Kids Called Onigiri (Rice Balls) As Jelly Filled Donuts in Pokemon

New Answers To The Porygon Dub Debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAIuf4lZCE - Unless you have been hiding under a rock for more than 20 years, you know...

www.youtube.com

They had a situation in their One Piece dub, which was obviously the worst thing they ever did by far & on the exact reverse flip side of their Pokémon main Series dub IMO, where they did another...

4kids one piece Vanilla rice (WTF)

The shittiest thing everCopyright: Echiiro Oda, 4kids

www.youtube.com

(To my knowledge, Pokémon & One Piece are the only 4Kids dubs they ever said the word "rice ball" even once or more than that: I think someone said they did in Kirby once but I can't recall...)

4jids digitally painted some riceballs into cookies in the one piece dub as well.

 

[snowmint]

4kids laid the ground work for how the anime dub is worked on till this day. They are at fault for that.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

4kids laid the ground work for how the anime dub is worked on till this day. They are at fault for that.

I wouldn’t fault them for that, since they have had nothing to do with the dub since late 2006, and their dub differs from what the current one did. TPCi decided to continue 4Kids’ more silly practices on their own, while excising a lot of the staff from the project outright: what they have decided for better or worse, is up to them. It’s like blaming Ocean or Saban for what FUNimation did with Dragonball Z later on, makes no sense, and as we’ve seen they eventually changed their ways greatly in contrast (the path I had hoped at one time TPCi would take is the one in S14 and Origins, not try to recapture 4Kids’ rendition, but Evolutions and XY+ is the one they settled on sadly).

 

[Tree99]

I saw the Yu-Gi-Oh Bonds Beyond Time dub recently, and the main thought running through my mind was "Wait, they were still doing the weird accents and stuff in 2010?"
By that point, dubs like that were an anachronism for the most part, yet 4Kids still acted like it was 1998.

 

[snowmint]

I saw the Yu-Gi-Oh Bonds Beyond Time dub recently, and the main thought running through my mind was "Wait, they were still doing the weird accents and stuff in 2010?"
By that point, dubs like that were an anachronism for the most part, yet 4Kids still acted like it was 1998.

How did the dark side of dimensions dub turbo out? I heard the soundtrack for that was replaced as well. Got pay those composers under contract, am I right?!

 

[HylianBelmont]

I saw the Yu-Gi-Oh Bonds Beyond Time dub recently, and the main thought running through my mind was "Wait, they were still doing the weird accents and stuff in 2010?"
By that point, dubs like that were an anachronism for the most part, yet 4Kids still acted like it was 1998.

It's not like the JP versions were above some of those things either, in all fairness.

GX, just for example, had silly verbal tics for characters like Daitokuji and Kenzan. Not to mention Chronos, Napoleon, and Jim "Crocodile" Cook were all very blatant Italian, French, and Australian stereotypes respectively. With accents and/or gratuitous foreign words, to boot.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I saw the Yu-Gi-Oh Bonds Beyond Time dub recently, and the main thought running through my mind was "Wait, they were still doing the weird accents and stuff in 2010?"
By that point, dubs like that were an anachronism for the most part, yet 4Kids still acted like it was 1998.

Yeah, Konami Cross Media still does random accents in the dubs from time to time. I don't know if it's as common as it was during some of the earlier series. I haven't watched much of the dubs for the more recent series, but even in The Dark Side of Dimensions movie, they had a couple of lines pointing out how Bakura's accent must be what causes girls to fawn all over him. 4Kids, as well as KCM, have always been stuck in the 90's in regards to how to dub anime.

How did the dark side of dimensions dub turbo out? I heard the soundtrack for that was replaced as well. Got pay those composers under contract, am I right?!

I'm not sure how faithful of a dub it was when it came to the dialogue. It still had some classic 4Kids cheesey dialogue and adding some lines about Bakura's accent, but I don't recall a lot of complaints about changes made to it compared to Bonds Beyond Time. They actually kept a scene with guns in tact, which was pretty surprising given their infamous gun edits during Duelist Kingdom. They would have more freedom with a theatrical movie as apposed to putting episodes on broadcast TV, but I was still pretty surprised when they actually showed a gun.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Yeah, Konami Cross Media still does random accents in the dubs from time to time. I don't know if it's as common as it was during some of the earlier series. I haven't watched much of the dubs for the more recent series, but even in The Dark Side of Dimensions movie, they had a couple of lines pointing out how Bakura's accent must be what causes girls to fawn all over him. 4Kids, as well as KCM, have always been stuck in the 90's in regards to how to dub anime.


I'm not sure how faithful of a dub it was when it came to the dialogue. It still had some classic 4Kids cheesey dialogue and adding some lines about Bakura's accent, but I don't recall a lot of complaints about changes made to it compared to Bonds Beyond Time. They actually kept a scene with guns in tact, which was pretty surprising given their infamous gun edits during Duelist Kingdom. They would have more freedom with a theatrical movie as apposed to putting episodes on broadcast TV, but I was still pretty surprised when they actually showed a gun.

TPCi is also stuck in the 90s, as well, it’s a shame since outside of Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh’s modern dubs in which I personally surprisingly prefer the older ones overall, I like most newer dubs better in DBZ Kai/Super, Viz Sailor Moon, etc. From what I can tell, DSOD was a better dub than what 4KMedia/KCM have usually put out and visually it was uncut, but script wise, it was average with some rewrites but some other times they stuck to the original. Re: guns, more freedom is the answer indeed.

They treated Pokémon fairly well under their wing, though, I don’t think 4Kids deserved all the hate they got in general due to doing some good there even if it’s still got its flaws (most including myself actually liked it more than the current TPCi dub that ran a little over twice as long, so that counts for something, IMO), but for things like One Piece and such, they did.

Dogasu can think what he wants as can some, but most don't tend to agree with him & I don't see the two dubs as the same at all personally:

https://aminoapps.com/c/pokemon/page/blog/tpci-vs-4kids/Bjhw_uzkxn2mPlPMPzRgBVYQoPG26p

https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=235271

It’s still sad this same studio did a better dub of Pokémon Movie 8 in September 2006, than they did in 2017 for Yu-Gi-Oh in DSOD, by actually keeping the OST intact in the former but not the latter IMHO.

That said, I’m glad Eric Stuart got a chance to redeem himself as Kaiba there though, had none of the overacting he and Dan Green did in later seasons and BTVA gave him an award for best acting in an Anime dub Movie in 2017 there IIRC. I'm still a bit sad he retired, tbh, but glad he got the chance to reprise there.