We need to talk about the continuity problem in the anime

[SinnohBoi]

Why make a series based on visiting past regions if you go out of your way to avoid continuity? If the writers are so ardent on resetting ash every region why not make a galar region based anime? Or replace him? Instead, by keeping him in the anime and avoiding any conclusive evidence that this ash has interacted with these past characters is downright insulting to fans of the series. And this is also more so insulting considering this is a new revelation in the anime. In the hoenn, sinnoh, Unova series the writers had no qualms with the anime's continuity. So what has changed then?

Now, looking at the current series we need to make the writers more accountable because they have fashioned a series that makes it impossible for them not to give us these references. Yes, we did see Lance a couple of episodes ago, however, he didn't interact with ash. Therefore, the writers had no issue with him being on the show. But with ash traveling through gyms the same cannot be said. If ash were to battle with a past gym leader, a reference will have to be made about their previous battle. Surge has been replaced in this gym battle and while this might be a coincidence, would we feel the same if ash battled another gym leader only for her or him to be replaced as well? How would we feel if the entire series went by and we didn't see any one of Ash's previous pokemon or any past characters? It would be pretty conclusive then that the writers are avoiding any continuity in the series.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Daenerys]

You already made a topic back in January discussing how the anime has a continuity problem and at least half of the posters in this section agreed with you, so why beat a dead horse?

 

[Sonu Yadav]

Why make a series based on visiting past regions if you go out of your way to avoid continuity? If the writers are so ardent on resetting ash every region why not make a galar region based anime? Or replace him? Instead, by keeping him in the anime and avoiding any conclusive evidence that this ash has interacted with these past characters is downright insulting to fans of the series. And this is also more so insulting considering this is a new revelation in the anime. In the hoenn, sinnoh, Unova series the writers had no qualms with the anime's continuity. So what has changed then?

Now, looking at the current series we need to make the writers more accountable because they have fashioned a series that makes it impossible for them not to give us these references. Yes, we did see Lance a couple of episodes ago, however, he didn't interact with ash. Therefore, the writers had no issue with him being on the show. But with ash traveling through gyms the same cannot be said. If ash were to battle with a past gym leader, a reference will have to be made about their previous battle. Surge has been replaced in this gym battle and while this might be a coincidence, would we feel the same if ash battled another gym leader only for her or him to be replaced as well? How would we feel if the entire series went by and we didn't see any one of Ash's previous pokemon or any past characters? It would be pretty conclusive then that the writers are avoiding any continuity in the series.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

totally agreed

You already made a topic back in January discussing how the anime has a continuity problem and at least half of the posters in this section agreed with you, so why beat a dead horse?

Because this series deserve it, it is bad in every way. writers should improve it or just off air this series.if this series will go 3 years like this then there is no hope for pokemon anime anymore, each and every old pokemon anime fan will not watch this and pokemon anime will be doomed and i really don't want to happen this because pokemon anime is very close to my heart but this series is piercing my heart. i really wish that pokemon anime production team should stop this.

 

[Charcoatl]

Why not make a galar region based anime? Or replace him?

One doesn't make sense without the other. It didn't make sense in Hoenn-Alola and it wouldn't make sense now.

 

[Silktree]

It's weird because not only did they bring Brock and Misty back, but they also showed a quick montage for them. I mostly care about Ash challenging Elite Four members, and if that requires ignoring their limited roles in the past, that'd be better than ignoring them altogether. Will, Karen, Sidney, Phoebe, Glacia, Grimsley, Shauntal, Marshal, Siebold, Wikstrom and Drasna have never met Ash, so those are always options. Janine and Forrest are the two gym leader replacements that would make sense, too. Viridian gym could belong to anyone at this point...

I still think that the Kanto starters have a fair chance of coming back. Bulbasaur interacted with Ash in SM.

 

[game3524]

Now, looking at the current series we need to make the writers more accountable because they have fashioned a series that makes it impossible for them not to give us these references.

I have to laugh at this to be honest.

One reason the writers don't do many continuity callbacks in the first place is because the kids just don't care about them that much. The amount of people who have been watching for a long time and care deeply about continuity are a small minority. Even the adults, who are now parents, likely don't care that much since most of them stopped watching sometime during the OS.

The outrage about lack of continuity (some of which is legit) is going to continue to fall onto deaf ears.

 

[Silktree]

It's what made me fine with the idea of a reboot in the first place, although then Ash couldn't have a Dragonite and such. At least we wouldn't have this discussion time after time.

 

[Panky..]

One reason the writers don't do many continuity callbacks in the first place is because the kids just don't care about them that much. The amount of people who have been watching for a long time and care deeply about continuity are a small minority. Even the adults, who are now parents, likely don't care that much since most of them stopped watching sometime during the OS.

There were literally several episodes with summaries, titles, plots that potentially teased continuity and were reminiscent of stuff that happened in the past... only this time, what they actually gave was a poorly made rip-off of the original (without any of the original's substance) and was merely treated like nostalgia bait (the 3rd, 8th, 9th, 18th etc. episodes). So they are definitely aware of the want for continuity (literally admitting to using the first episode to generate hype and viewership) but are instead going about the long way to shit on those desires. The past series lacking much continuity could be excusable because those series were set in the generation's native region and the only continuity to be expected was his reserves during the League. Now we have a series that can organically bring back the past, yet we have writers taking the long road to avoid it for some retarded reason, using anime original locations and characters as if they're afraid of losing organs.

Even so, the reasons you gave are not reasons to avoid it, if anything then including continuity would actually serve to increase interest. What positives do a CotD bring anyways? Because I can list several positives that past characters, events or places can bring to the table. I'm pretty sure you can't list a single positive of replacing Surge with a random CotD, or having a Piplup-Croagunk clone duo instead of the original, or why a Ho-oh is more relevant to some grumpy CotD than the main character. I'll just use the upcoming 18th episode as an example. Ash and Surge have history together, history that could be expanded upon and let both trainers know how much the other has grown since the last time they saw each other. Ash can't have that with the random CotD. The entire episode is structured and based seemingly off Ash's original Gym battle there which screams continuity, yet the conveniently removed Surge to avoid it. This is baffling.

I'm pretty sure I discussed this very topic with you in the past.

people who have been watching for a long time and care deeply about continuity are a small minority.

Did you carry out some sort of worldwide survey? If so, display the results please.

 

[LazySpy]

I have to laugh at this to be honest.

One reason the writers don't do many continuity callbacks is because the kids just don't care about callbacks. The amount of people who have been watching for a longtime and care deeply about continuity are a small minority. Even the adults, who are now parents, likely don't care that much since most of them stopped watching sometime during the OS.

'Mcgonagall being alive before her birth date is okay because people watching Fantastic Beasts are kids/adults who don't care about callbacks'.

Aaaaaand TLJ bombers are absolutelly fine because most people don't know what a Y-Wing is, and portalls to the Spirit World in TLOK are okay because Avatar fans are kids who don't care about continuity, and hey, lets make a LOTR movie based explicitly on the books and give Aragorn and the army of Gondor machineguns despite establishing the story as set in the same universe as the books, because LOTR fans are now parents who never read Silmarillion and/or kids who don't care about callbacks, so that's absolutelly okay!
------
Sarcastic jokes aside, I think the frustration about lack of continuity has less to do with people wanting to see it, but more to do with them being promised that they might see it, or the writers creating a situation where continuity was expected, but then avoiding it in favor of a COTD whom no one cares about, because he appears and disappears in the exact same episode!
It's not about the fans 'wanting to be reminded that some things exist', it's about the broken promises.

Also, 'minority'? Very interesting statement. From what I have seen, you and Silktree are some of the few people who weren't bothered by lack of continuity, so it's you who are actually in the minority. Don't believe me? Just watch!

Spoiler: 'Short' list of the 'minority' complaining about continuity.

Again?
It's a Tomioka episode though.

Man, I hope Surge gets at least a brief appearance of some kind. It'd be really interesting if we saw a reference or two to Ash's Gym battle with him all the way back in season 1...

Dream staff team working on the episode. Though I find it both amusing and irritating that it seems like it'll be a clone of Ash's Vermillion Gym battle, only this time they're going out of their way to introduce a new character instead of bringing back Surge. Pathetic... like what could they lose from having Surge here? Since he's not going to appear, they should at least mention Ash's original Gym battle here (and maybe give it and Surge some cameos) otherwise it's a crime against the Universe.

I do hope the PWC is like the Battle Frontier (someone mentioned this earlier) so we can see reserves rotated. Though logic says that it might be Gengar, depending on the outcome of the 16th episode.

That staff team is amazing. Best writer OLM have for writing battles and one of the best animators. Definitely looking forward to this.

No Surge is a pity, perhaps the voice actor said no? Does anyone know if Surge's VA still does work?

Did the writers seriously just come up another contrived excuse for an old character to not return? This is becoming a pattern. It’s almost as if Lance was an exception.

If they can't even bring back Lt. Surge, then that's too much to expect.

Lt. Surge is replaced by a COTD?

Now they're just being cruel...

Really makes you wonder what the point was in even setting it in the Vermillion Gym was then.

But given that around half of Kanto were putty badges and the other half didn’t use their game teams, wouldn’t using them to their fullest accomplish the same thing?

But... couldn't they do that with the actual Gym Leaders? It's not like their teams are only made up of their aces' lines/species or that they don't/couldn't have some unique strategies related to their other Pokémon.

Pikachu is battling a Raichu at the Vermillion Gym.

If that doesn’t get a direct callback, nothing will.

They're...kidding me, right?

I find it lame enough that they're using a stand in for Lt. Surge but they go ahead and give him a Raichu of all things? Seriously?

I'm excited that the World Championships are getting underway, and the team working on the episode is fantastic, but...having to watch some fill in gym leader really dampens my excitement. And I don't agree that it doesn't matter since the Kanto gym leaders were already seen or that Ash already battled them...they didn't get the same kind of (very food) focus gym leaders have gotten in more recent seasons. This would've been a nice opportunity to flesh Lt. Surge out a little more and to see a new battle between him and Ash where Ash is now more experienced than he was in Kanto.

It's super frustrating how this series has been having an upswing, and then they go and pull yet another stunt like this. Makes me a little nervous for what else they have in store for these episodes...

"His opponent in his memorable first battle is Pisces, an Electric type Trainer and the acting Gym Leader of the Kuchiba Gym while its Gym Leader Matis is absent."

I get that the writers have been forbidden from acknowledging any meaningful continuity in this series, but this is going to get old really fast. Why even mention the old gym leader anyway? Prepare for a long series of all-too-convenient continuity dodging. I can already see it...

Goldenrod Gym: Ash will be facing a stand-in as Whitney is on vacation.
Eterna Gym: COTD #52 will be filling in as gym leader because Gardenia has jury duty.
Lumiose Gym: Clemont had a dentist appointment so they got some random guy off the street to face Ash.

They are playing the risky game of trying to celebrate a franchise's long history while simultaneously pretending it never happened. The expression, "Having your cake and eating it too" comes to mind.

Really thats a new low...

So in order to participate in the mighty Pokemon World tournament you have to defeat the Gym leaders again, and not only that they put a fake Lt Surge? ,Was to much asking for Sargeant Bolt or Colonel Sanders for all that I care.

That give us hope that we may indeed see the Galarian gym leaders at some point, but really thats cheap. The Kanto battles with the exception of Lt Surge one or the epic Battle with Blaine were kinda bland, some rematches of those wouldnt be so bad.

But then you throw this garbage at us.

Bollocks absolutely Bollocks.

Also a Raichu vs Pikachu, put some Magneton, Macnetric, Eelectross I dont know put some new pokémon to fight Pikachu.

... All of those posts are from one, single episode. One that didn't even air yet!
I could find even more posts in review thread for episode 9, or 1, or 7, but you get the idea. I don't know where you got the impression from that it's 'minority' of people, so I would like to hear you elaborate.

 

[Silktree]

I can definitely think of a reason why the Piplpup-Croagunk duo they went for was a better choice than randomly reuniting Dawn and Brock, who were barely friends and whose Pokemon were definitely not rivals. Continuity porn is the opposite extreme of non-existent continuity, and there should be a happy medium.

The Ho-Oh episode was the worst offender, even though it did have a flashback. I'll have to see if Lt. Surge and his Raichu are referenced before judging the upcoming episode.

Also, 'minority'? Very interesting statement. From what I have seen, you and Silktree are some of the few people who weren't bothered by lack of continuity, so it's you who are actually in the minority. Don't believe me? Just watch!

Hmm, the entire Internet fandom is a minority. Interview 100 Japanese kids and then we'll talk. And the reason that I can tolerate the lack of continuity is that I never saw a reason to expect a huge change from the past six years.

 

[Panky..]

I can definitely think of a reason why the Piplpup-Croagunk duo they went for was a better choice than randomly reuniting Dawn and Brock, who were barely friends and whose Pokemon were definitely not rivals. Continuity porn is the opposite extreme of minimal continuity, and there should be a happy medium.

Fine, Brock and Dawn being brought in without build-up randomly would definitely be a bad thing. If that's the case then why use Piplup and Croagunk at all?
Because they're popular...

And why are they popular again?
Because of Brock and Dawn.

They could have used literally any other Sinnoh Pokemon for that episode (Croagunk doesn't even fit the Ice race theme) but nope, gotta cash in on nostalgia bait. A happy medium would be not making it seem like there's continuity involved (like the 4th, 5th, 10th episodes) and then deciding to make the worst or lamest possible plot to bait out the people who were getting excited. Besides, the reason you gave is not a positive for the episode having clone Pokemon instead of the originals, it's just a convenient excuse to avoid it.

 

[Daren]

I feel I should clarify my post in the episode thread wasn't about the lack of continuity but about how we've seen Pikachu Vs Raichu a number of times and I'd prefer a battle with a different Electric-type.

My thoughts on the continuity issue are complicated, and I can't really do a brief summary without it getting too jumbled to be useful.

 

[Konja7]

Also, 'minority'? Very interesting statement. From what I have seen, you and Silktree are some of the few people who weren't bothered by lack of continuity, so it's you who are actually in the minority. Don't believe me? Just watch!


... All of those posts are from one, single episode. One that didn't even air yet!
I could find even more posts in review thread for episode 9, or 1, or 7, but you get the idea. I don't know where you got the impression from that it's 'minority' of people, so I would like to hear you elaborate.

I think it was quite obvious that with "minority" they were referring to Japanese fans (who are the ones that the creators of the show care), not to Western fans in this forum.

Now, we cannot know how many old Japanese fans are, so we could not assure that it is a minority.

However, the fact that they avoid direct continuity, even when old Japanese fans would appreciate it too, I doubt it is such a large or important amount.



PS: Another thing, the first episode was to try to attract people who were not currently following the anime using the popularity of Pikachu. These people probably stopped watching the anime at some point, so many of them will not be so interested in continuity

 

[Daenerys]

Because this series deserve it, it is bad in every way. writers should improve it or just off air this series.if this series will go 3 years like this then there is no hope for pokemon anime anymore, each and every old pokemon anime fan will not watch this and pokemon anime will be doomed and i really don't want to happen this because pokemon anime is very close to my heart but this series is piercing my heart. i really wish that pokemon anime production team should stop this.

Oh dear. Look I don't disagree with all the criticisms, and I also realize that I'm the last person who should be complaining about complainers, but in the case of the OP he's made many threads in the past few months about how awful he thinks the series is despite him still following it even though he supposedly hates it with a passion.

What is the point of even coming here to tell us how much the anime sucks if that's literally all he ever says? Even I'm not that pessimistic, or at least not to the point where I make a rant thread every other week. :/

One reason the writers don't do many continuity callbacks in the first place is because the kids just don't care about them that much. The amount of people who have been watching for a long time and care deeply about continuity are a small minority. Even the adults, who are now parents, likely don't care that much since most of them stopped watching sometime during the OS.

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for months but people either still act like they don't understand this concept, or make up whole essays about how they think they know more about the matter than the writing staff and producers do. We (as in older fans because it seems like most everyone who posts here is at least in their mid-20's) are the only ones who'd really benefit from continuity callbacks since most of the main demographic doesn't give two shits about some situation or character that Ash encountered decades ago before any of the main audience was even born.

 

[Rocket Messiah]

@LazySpy

It would have been better if you had put this music on the list you made:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOt0fNdvYDI


That's a long freaking list

And if someone come here with the audacity of telling us that they want to do new things, they are wrong.

They are also calling nostalgia, Dragonite is the primary example of that, Gengar too.

Come on if you want to make a worldwide series do it right and do not try to do things you should have made in 2002 when OS ended.

Now it's too late. If you want a series in Kanto make the Kanto gym leaders appear.

And BTW do I have to remember than Brock and Misty appeared in Sun and Moon? Why then yes and now not?

If you want to create a new series kick Ash and Team Rocket out of them. That's all.

 

[Panky..]

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for months but people either still act like they don't understand this concept, or make up whole essays about how they think they know more about the matter than the writing staff and producers do. We (as in older fans because it seems like most everyone who posts here is at least in their mid-20's) are the only ones who'd really benefit from continuity callbacks since most of the main demographic doesn't give two shits about some situation or character that Ash encountered decades ago before any of the main audience was even born.

Again (just like the Silktree and game3524 before you), you go around in circles without answering the main point about why exactly it's a negative thing to reference continuity to the point the writers intentionally pervert it and how using random CotDs is better than actual characters from the past. Even if the target demographic changed, that doesn't automatically negate the previous series and the anime's history... if anything, this series makes it necessary to integrate it with the way it's structured (instead, they think it's fine to make nostalgia bait like "Ho-oh, the promise we made that day", "Ivysaur, mysterious isn't it" or "Battle Frontier tournament" and so on and on).

OS, AG, DP and even BW for all its faults referenced continuity quite well. XY can be excused because most of its content took place in Kalos alone and SM literally gave us some episodes with past characters and reserves. And guess what? The target demographic was fine with it at the time, no children committed suicide from being 'confused'. The way the three of you worded it makes it sound like the writers/constructors have a bomb collar around their neck nowadays that'll be set off if they so much as write in something from the past in a proper way and without any kind of bait-and-switch or soulless cloning.

I'll give you an example of a series that botched continuity, ignored it in general and ended up being disliked by the majority. DB Super.
I don't really have to explain the semantics if you did watch it and why it feels pretty much non-canon to DB and Z.

 

[J Bouken]

It's egregious in this case because of the current season's scenario. A world tour is perfect for visiting old places and seeing old friends and I've no doubt the staff were fully aware of this when they came up with it. But rather than work with it naturally, they're constantly fighting against it and I think the end product suffers as a result. Now, whenever they set an episode in a famous place or bring up a famous bit of series lore, they have to contrive reasons why it wouldn't be significant to Ash in some way or dress it up as an entirely unrelated story.

For episodes about the ruins in Unova or happening upon a trainer with a Piplup and Croagunk in Sinnoh this isn't such a big deal, but this aversion to the show's history becomes problematic when they start visiting more significant places.

For example, how on earth are they going to have Ash visit Alola and not visit his Alola family? He adored that place and has his most successful team living there. Could you imagine an episode there where he and Gou visited a random location, and not one mention was made of Ash's accomplishments, or his time living with Kukui, or the fact Burnett is pregnant? These wouldn't be small things you could just brush under the rug. Same for when they go back to Kalos. How could you not mention Greninja is any way?

Sometimes, its simpler to go with the flow. Ash is going to Vermilion Gym, so why not have Surge appear again? What harm does it do? Wouldn't it be easier to write a story around Ash and Surge's history than it would be to contrive a scenario where he's been replaced by this new guy?

I've said it before, but fans shouldn't be blamed for having expectations. Especially now, when there's considerably less new content in the way and there's a concerted effort to re-use old content.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

If I had to get into the heads of those in the writer's room, I would say that they would want it to be episodic and have the series hold its own identity. Both of these stances do make sense. Sunday is a different night from what they're used to, necessitating a more episodic structure. The show needs its own identity for obvious reasons.

I would say that the writing staff doesn't rely on old characters out of fear of overshadowing the current new cast of Gou and Koharu. I understand that much. I do not, however, understand writing the show in such a way that makes them skirt near continuity.

 

[SinnohBoi]

If I had to get into the heads of those in the writer's room, I would say that they would want it to be episodic and have the series hold its own identity. Both of these stances do make sense. Sunday is a different night from what they're used to, necessitating a more episodic structure. The show needs its own identity for obvious reasons.

I would say that the writing staff doesn't rely on old characters out of fear of overshadowing the current new cast of Gou and Koharu. I understand that much. I do not, however, understand writing the show in such a way that makes them skirt near continuity.

Can somebody explain to me why the timeslot was a good move then? I am under the impression that tpci buys the timeslot so they can air the anime? I could be wrong, however, it is evident that the timeslot change has resulted in a decline in the TV ratings and the show's quality. Sun and Moon was already mapped out entirely before the timeslot change, hence we didn't recognise any change in the show's direction. But we can now see the anime being negatively affected as a result of this idiotic timeslot placement. Surely if this is a problem for olm and the pokemon company, they could shop out the anime to a different network because I am struggling to recognise why the show airing on a Sunday night is more advantageous than its previous Thursday night slot.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

I am under the impression that tpci buys the timeslot so they can air the anime?

It is much more complicated than simply buying up time like you would plots of land. Remember, the network has a say in when and where they can go as well. Unlike America where the network dominates, TV Tokyo and TPCI are in a tug of war.

We don't know the details of corporate politics in a language most of us really don't speak.

What we do know is that TV Tokyo wanted to pick a fight with Fuji TV and their Chibi Maruko-chan and Sazae-san shows. Why do we know this? The time slots tell it all.