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We need to talk about the continuity problem in the anime

You see, this is why this series has a continuity problem. We’re so desperate to get any sort of factual reference to the past in a series that’s meant to do just this that we start leaping in joy whenever the writers throw us some tiny bones like these that nobody would ever look twice upon in the first four seasons.

Not attacking anyone in particular, but people pointing these hints as the sacred continuity everyone’s begging for seem to only be in denial.
I know what you mean... But their must have happened events in Ash his past that resulted in the same results. Or their is a soft reset and these things happened in an others way or the story is still continuing.

I have been watching this series since the very beginning. People who now want to have Ash use his reserves more... We were in shock back in the days Ash asked Prof. Oak to send his Krabby over. We were in shock Ash out of nowhere used Muk in the League and he called it out in that one episode in the Orange Islands. Ash was barely using it's reserves even back then. I think Jotho was the place Ash finally swapped some Pokémon regulary for one or to episodes in specific competitions. I also enjoyed the Battle frontier and Sinnoh League because Ash used his old Pokémon that much.

I do miss the days Ash called Oak and we saw one or more of Ash's Pokémon in the background. I hope we will see them again in this series, but in most of the series Ash Pokémon at Oak's lab were cameo characters exept for some periode of time. And the same can be said about his former travelling partners. Once they league the group they are cameo characters or return for a short time.

I still hope Ash will run into some of his friends this series (isn't the 25th anniversary while this series runs?) and he'll use some of bus ook Pokémon (heck, I still hope to see Pokémon like Butterfree and Primeape again). But we'll have to fait and see. Maybe their will be more continuity shown someday.
 
You see, this is why this series has a continuity problem. We’re so desperate to get any sort of factual reference to the past in a series that’s meant to do just this that we start leaping in joy whenever the writers throw us some tiny bones like these that nobody would ever look twice upon in the first four seasons.

Not attacking anyone in particular, but people pointing these hints as the sacred continuity everyone’s begging for seem to only be in denial.

This is sorta my problem with the constant demands for continuity. Some fans will complain that we need more continuity, then every once in a blue moon the writers toss us a bone and the continuity brigade rejoices for a few days... until a couple weeks pass and they get even more greedy and entitled and demand more continuity. Then maybe a few months later we get another episode with a reference to an old episode/character/storyline and the cycle repeats itself in an endless loop. None of the continuity enthusiasts are ever satisfied and at this point it feels like they're the problem rather than the writing staff, because at least I can sympathize with the writers since they have a job to do and can't go around appeasing all of us.
 
This is sorta my problem with the constant demands for continuity. Some fans will complain that we need more continuity, then every once in a blue moon the writers toss us a bone and the continuity brigade rejoices for a few days... until a couple weeks pass and they get even more greedy and entitled and demand more continuity. Then maybe a few months later we get another episode with a reference to an old episode/character/storyline and the cycle repeats itself in an endless loop. None of the continuity enthusiasts are ever satisfied and at this point it feels like they're the problem rather than the writing staff, because at least I can sympathize with the writers since they have a job to do and can't go around appeasing all of us.
Can you blame people for expecting continuity when they drop titles like Fushigisou, Isn't it Mysterious?, The Hoenn Region, Site of Fierce Fights! The Battle Frontier Challenge!!, The Promise We Made that Day! The Houou Legend of the Johto Region!! etc.? Or when they publish promotional artworks like the one involving the Ho-oh and Ash holding the Rainbow wing but the actual episode having none of that, or even using the Piplup-Croagunk duo instead of any other Sinnoh Pokemon? Or when we're given summaries like the one that literally tease a battle similar to the original Vermillion Gym, only this time we they try to conveniently have Surge absent for it. Or when we have episodes that blatantly come off as poorly made clones of what they're based on with none of the substance? Or the fact that this series is supposed to be revisiting regions where continuity would feel the most organic, instead of jumping between anime original locations?

Maybe if the writing staff (and to a lesser extent, you) actually put some thought into it, writing in continuity wouldn't even be that hard or a problem. There wouldn't even be a factor of "appeasing" and "pandering" that you like to claim so often, it would be in fact be quite natural to assimilate it and would be proper storytelling on their part (this was never a problem pre-BW, I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem now especially for a series that's supposed to be revisiting past regions). It could start with something as simple as rotation of Ash's reserves and seeing some of his older Pokemon hanging out at Sakuragi park. Or maybe actually have Surge in SS018's battle instead of going out of their way to write in a CotD who'll pretty much disappear after said episode. They're definitely aware of the want for continuity but seemingly go out of their way to pervert those wants like in the examples I mentioned above, which at this point feels like they're giving fans the middle finger.

Oh but sure, do sympathize with the writing staff for just doing their fantastic job of nostalgia bait-and-switching, they're doing absolutely nothing wrong. The ones who expect stuff are totally the problem because they're "greedy and entitled". By the way, you didn't answer my earlier question.
Again (just like the Silktree and game3524 before you), you go around in circles without answering the main point about why exactly it's a negative thing to reference continuity to the point the writers intentionally pervert it and how using random CotDs is better than actual characters from the past.
 
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This is sorta my problem with the constant demands for continuity. Some fans will complain that we need more continuity, then every once in a blue moon the writers toss us a bone and the continuity brigade rejoices for a few days... until a couple weeks pass and they get even more greedy and entitled and demand more continuity. Then maybe a few months later we get another episode with a reference to an old episode/character/storyline and the cycle repeats itself in an endless loop. None of the continuity enthusiasts are ever satisfied and at this point it feels like they're the problem rather than the writing staff, because at least I can sympathize with the writers since they have a job to do and can't go around appeasing all of us.
That’s not what I meant though. What I mean is that it’s sad that we’ve sunk so low to the point we consider Ash acknowledging he’s met Ho-oh, something that would come absolutely naturally in another season, a big hint of continuity. I’m not criticizing people that want more, I’m criticizing people that think this is enough.
 
That’s not what I meant though. What I mean is that it’s sad that we’ve sunk so low to the point we consider Ash acknowledging he’s met Ho-oh, something that would come absolutely naturally in another season, a big hint of continuity. I’m not criticizing people that want more, I’m criticizing people that think this is enough.

But that was enough. I mean Jesus, this is exactly what I meant about greed; no matter what hints of continuity the writers give us some of you guys are just never satisfied with what you get.

And my gosh, if the alternative was that Ash hadn't given us any signs that he remembered Ho-Oh, you guys still would've complained. So the writers are literally stuck in a lose-lose situation at this point.
 
But that was enough. I mean Jesus, this is exactly what I meant about greed; no matter what hints of continuity the writers give us some of you guys are just never satisfied with what you get.

And my gosh, if the alternative was that Ash hadn't given us any signs that he remembered Ho-Oh, you guys still would've complained. So the writers are literally stuck in a lose-lose situation at this point.
Good job conveniently ignoring my post and what I explained to you, as well as continuing to put words in people's mouths. And you still haven't answered the question I asked you.

Let's just use the example that you brought up regarding the Ho-oh episode. The only continuity nod in it (which would have been natural in past series and not such a big deal like LFB mentioned) was pretty much pointless since Ash didn't even get to glimpse Ho-oh at all. The entire episode was structured like a filler where somehow a grumpy and jaded old CotD is far more relevant than the main character of the entire anime. Let's not even forget the legend stated back in Johto about Ho-oh only reappearing when people and Pokemon's hearts are one (surprise surprise, that description fits one of the main protagonists) which the CotD clearly wasn't, going so far as to try and rip his wing apart because he couldn't find Ho-oh (which sounds very selfish and one track minded to me). To reiterate, the entire point of that episode that they themselves stated from the artwork and summaries that they published was Ash having some sort of contact with Ho-oh and obtaining the Rainbow Wing. The writers forced themselves into a losing scenario, not the fans "demands", by not delivering on what was promised. I can assure you that had they delivered on what was expected originally then people wouldn't have the problems you assumed.

Now, do you want me to explain what's wrong with the other nostalgia bait episodes or will you conveniently ignore this as well?
1. There is no sign of Ash-Greninja anywhere, just Greninja. The form is unlikely to come back to the games as long as Mega Evolution is absent.
2. XY fans are now teenagers or older. They aren't part of the target audience and nothing says that the writers need to pander to them.
3. It's been stated that this series is also for parents of the target audience, who are familiar with the OS.
4. The second key visual shows Charizard, Bulbasaur and Squirtle in Pallet Town. Gee, I wonder who their trainer is.
5. I do agree that SM being recent makes it more likely to be revisited, but if Kukui's baby is the only tangible plot point, then that isn't exactly much to work with (not to mention the aging thing). Lillie has left Alola and her ending is hardly open ended.
1 - It's still part of canon, both in the anime and the games. Just because it doesn't appear doesn't mean it's suddenly non-existent, and most of Greninja's popularity is due to the anime and the Bond Phenomenon.
2 - Again, the usual "pandering" misconception that I just explained to the other guy. Cohesive and proper storytelling demands that continuity to be written in regardless of the target audience, not "pandering". And don't bring up the argument "it's a kids show" because that's been shot down in the past as well.
3 - The words were along the lines of 'fans of all generations', not 'parents familiar with OS'.
4 - Fair point, yet there's still no mention of them and I won't put it past the writers to make up clones of them with nothing related to Ash given their track record so far.
5 - I'm pretty sure there are lots of tangible plot points ranging from Kukui and family, to his Alolan team, to his Alolan Champion status. Be creative and you can come up with more that doesn't go into CotD/filler territory.
 
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It's strange treating continuity, references, and whatnot as some mythical treat or fan-service when they're core components of any story. Wanting a richer story isn't greed. Heck, it's not even demanding, because it's the least I expect from a story.

What people want, more than just being pandered to, is for Pokemon to take its ideas, stories and characters and develop them instead of leaving them behind. They want those moments where something they once knew gets a new spin and makes them question everything, or when a plot point from earlier finally pays off. These moments feel amazing in other stories.

I would love for Lt. Surge to return in the coming episode because he played an instrumental role in who Ash is today. That battle defined many of Ash's training methods and battle tactics. With Ash competing at a higher level than before, it'd be cool to revisit the past so we can see just how far he's come since those days.

Ash just got a Gengar, too. Well, whatever happened to the Haunter he left with Sabrina? They're not far away at all. Maybe there could be a scenario where Gengar has to turn its spite into something more playful. Who better than the playful ghost Ash befriended way back when? Alternatively, Ash isn't familiar with Ghost-types; he's never used one before. Maybe he could ask some old acquaintances how to handle them. Agatha, perhaps.

I don't think I'm being entitled at all in wishing for this to happen.
 
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1. There is no sign of Ash-Greninja anywhere, just Greninja. The form is unlikely to come back to the games as long as Mega Evolution is absent.
2. XY fans are now teenagers or older. They aren't part of the target audience and nothing says that the writers need to pander to them.

I wonder who voted for Greninja in the poll for most popular Pokémon? If XY fans are teens now and don't care about the anime anymore and the younger fans are too young to remember XY... :unsure:

Was Greninja this popular before it became so important in the anime? The only other reason I can think of is Smash Bros.
 
Was Greninja this popular before it became so important in the anime?

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That was one of the main reasons why most people thought that Ash's Froakie was gonna evolve all the way into Greninja in the first place prior to Ash-Greninja being revealed.
 
Unpopular opinion, I suppose, but after thinking it through, I feel it's still too early for this series to start doing callbacks and visiting old pals. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, it's definitely not going to happen this soon, when we're barely getting to know the new characters.
 
You think it's too early for past characters, reserves and callbacks to appear again, but not the pointless fillers and unnecessary nostalgia bait that barely contribute to us getting to know said new characters?
Yes. I disagree about fillers being pointless (more than a few are mediocrely executed, though), and while nostalgia bait is scummy, it doesn't really change the product itself.

I'm going to wait until we see Alola, though. If they somehow manage to circumvent making any callbacks on what is essentially the smallest, most recent region, as well as the one with the most established world, then they are really putting all the effort they can into not referencing past series.
 
Yes. I disagree about fillers being pointless (more than a few are mediocrely executed, though), and while nostalgia bait is scummy, it doesn't really change the product itself.

I'm going to wait until we see Alola, though. If they somehow manage to circumvent making any callbacks on what is essentially the smallest, most recent region, as well as the one with the most established world, then they are really putting all the effort they can into not referencing past series.
I didn't mean fillers being pointless in general. I meant pointless fillers, like the 8th episode which tried to cash in on the Piplup-Croagunk duo hype or the 9th episode which baited people using the artwork and Ash's connection to Ho-oh and what not. Neither of these episodes contributed to any kind of character growth for Gou and the new cast, much less Ash. These episodes could either have been replaced with something that is used to develop characters (like the 11th or 15th episodes) or have something meaningful to them (you know, like actually delivering on what was hyped for the 9th episode). The nostalgia bait does change the overall product because it ends up being completely different than what it was being promoted as, not to mention the lies told to people's faces.
 
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I didn't mean fillers being pointless in general. I meant pointless fillers, like the 8th episode which tried to cash in on the Piplup-Croagunk duo hype or the 9th episode which baited people using the artwork and Ash's connection to Ho-oh and what not. Neither of these episodes contributed to any kind of character growth for Gou and the new cast, much less Ash. These episodes could either have been replaced with something that is used to develop characters (like the 11th or 15th episodes) or have something meaningful to them (you know, like actually delivering on what was hyped for the 9th episode). The nostalgia bait does change the overall product because it ends up being completely different than what it was being promoted as.

The problem is that you can't call those episodes fillers, since a Pokemon got caught.
 
The problem is that you can't call those episodes fillers, since a Pokemon got caught.
Given how generic and GO-ish those captures were, as well as the lack of any kind of significant development in them, I'd say they tread along the lines of a filler. Regardless of what they're called, they were still pointless episodes that contributed nothing and used nostalgia bait.
 
The problem is that you can't call those episodes fillers, since a Pokemon got caught.
If Gou catching a Pokemon is all that is needed to make an episode non-filler, then I'm willing to bet that there's gonna be next to zero filler episodes in this entire series once we're done with it. Seriously though, aside from making his Pokedex count go up, most of Gou's random captures feel so meaningless because they either have nothing to do with the main plot of the episode (eg. Tentacool, Sentret), or happen so easily that there's no visible increase in Gou's capturing skill at all (eg. Misdreavus, Stantler). In other words, unless if some other major event(s) happen in an episode, you might as well consider the episode to be filler even if Gou captures something in it.

Considering how insignificant most of Gou's captures are, we really need to raise the bar for what constitutes a non-filler episode or not. Otherwise, what's stopping the writers from just writing filler episodes and then throwing in a bunch of random Gou captures to make those episodes "important"?
 
When episode 12 aired, I was kinda annoyed to hear some people denying the obvious evidences of continuity in it: Lance, the Red Gyarados, the Pokémon G-Men... How could things like these not be a sign of continuity?! It just baffles me to no end. They even made an explanation to why Lance's outfit is different now. I'd count that as a continuity reference too.
 
Revisiting this thread, it seems to me that Journeys has seriously improved in this regard as time has past. It had exceeded even SM in the way it has brought back old characters, and doing so multiple times for the same character; Korrina, Gary, an episode showing where Iris of all people went... anyway, I want to commend the writing team for finally putting the above complaints to rest.
 
Please note: The thread is from 2 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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