Were Diamond and Pearl the ultimate games?

[Puddle]

Junichi Masuda once wrote on his blog that he wanted Diamond and Pearl to be the "ultimate version" of Pokémon. Do you think him and his team succeeded? Were Diamond and Pearl, at the time of their release, the ultimate Pokémon games?

I think they were, at least in some respects. The way that the designers pulled out all the stops with the new legendary and mythical Pokemon (among them, the alleged creators of the universe), and the large selection of evolutions for older Pokémon, gave these games the feel of a "series finale". Had Game Freak decided not to continue the Pokémon series indefinitely, Sinnoh would have been the perfect region to end on. (It's interesting how Sinnoh was followed by a semi-reboot with Unova, much like how Johto - which was originally meant to be the end - was followed by a semi-reboot with Hoenn.)

There seemed to be a greater emphasis on completing the National Pokédex - catching them all - in Diamond and Pearl, compared to Gen 3. A lot of thought went into making all the Pokémon available in these games, with features like Pal Park, the Poké Radar and the dual slot method.

And last but not least, the introduction of the physical/special split, and online connectivity, broadened the scope of possibilites for competitive battling and multiplayer interactions.

Diamond and Pearl did have some issues that still vex fans to this day, such as the slow animations and the bad type balance in the Sinnoh Pokédex. The games were soon surpassed by Platinum, HeartGold and SoulSilver. But at the time, I think they were a monumental achievement. I can only hope that Masuda has remembered the passion and determination he felt when making them, and injected this into Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl as well.

 

[Welkamo]

Obviously Pokémon TV is the ultimate game. Not just the ultimate Pokémon game; I mean that no game from no franchise or lack thereof could top that game.

 

[Emmy]

...No.

 

[Phosphene]

 

[Norzan]

Having so many ways to get pokemon that aren't catchable in the game was just the continuation of what they did in Gen 3, what with the remake of Gen 1 and the Colosseum games (even if the latter weren't made by them) being made to add pokemon that were lost with the cutoff between Gen 2 and Gen 3. At the time they didn't want to cause yet another cutoff, hence why there's so many ways to get pokemon outside of Diamond and Pearl.

The physical/special split was pretty much what it should have been like since Gen 1, since the previous system caused odd cases like Gengar not taking advantage of STAB because both its typings were attack based and it's a special attack based pokemon.

The focus on competitive battling was pretty much Gamefreak finally fully embracing competitive since a lot of fans had been making metas for years at that point. The online connectivity was just Gamefreak taking advantage of the fact the DS can connect to the internet (not now unfortunately).

I don't think any of these were made with the mentality that Diamond and Pearl were meant to be the "ultimate pokemon games".

 

[Esserise]

I feel like if "ultimate" is qualified as "in some respects," then it's not really "ultimate."

I think Diamond & Pearl do manage to capture an unprecedented sense of scope in a few ways. The narrative, for one thing, diving into the very origins of the Pokémon universe, and introducing deity-tier Pokémon with a storyline that threatens the whole world. Similarly, the games' level of interaction also went global at that time, allowing players from around the world to connect with one another via the GTS, which is surely still one of the most significant achievements in the main series's history. I also think the litany of new ways you're able to catch Pokémon, as well as the numerous sidequest options, create a strong feeling of a world with lots to do and explore.

I do think the games' problems hold them back from truly claiming that title of "ultimate," even in the context of when they came out, but I can see how that notion influenced some of the design process.

 

[Insanish Danish]

Diamond and Pearl definitely added a lot to the series that wasn't previously there, but I wouldn't call them the ultimate games. I wouldn't really say there is one "ultimate" game. Even the weaker ones in the series still have something to offer.

My personal bias says Black and White are the ultimate games though, obviously

 

[WyndonCalling]

I have almost no love for Sinnoh itself due to a variety of factors (the species roster, colour palette and legendary bloat predominantly), but it's telling that HGSS are just about identical mechanically and they're my favourite games of the franchise. Ever since the second Physical/Special split, further changes to the battle system have basically amounted to tweaks or variations of a battle system that functions very much as intended.

I'd also say that the DS was the ultimate vehicle for the perfection of the chibi-esque overworld and sprite-based battles that defined that era of Pokémon history. Gen IV's balance of visual ambition and hardware capability might the best in the series, and all five titles feel very comfortable in their own skin. By way of contrast, Gen V honestly looks a little janky at times with the attempts to add more human detail in the overworld and the strained pixels of the in-battle animations.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I don’t think that subjectively it would have been a stretch to call them an ultimate game when they first came out. In terms of content, story, etc. they held up really well against other titles.

The ultimate game kind of suggests superiority over all others which…yeah, no.

I do love DP, though. Sinnoh is still my favorite region to-date. So for me personally, I guess they were the ultimate game in their time.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

No. Emerald was better than DP and Platinum was better than DP. When both the preceding and succeeding game are better, it's clearly not the ultimate game.

In terms of the overall amount of content, replayability, difficulty, and quality, the ultimate game is like a four-way tie between Emerald, Platinum, HGSS, and BW2. Gen 4 has arguably aged better than Gen 5, I always found Gen 5 to be too pixelated, Platinum and HGSS just look smoother. Emerald has by far the best iteration of the Battle Frontier, but BW2 has the PWT. If I had to choose an ultimate game it would be HGSS. You just can't beat the content of two regions, a Battle Frontier, and such a hype boss fight like Red. It's the closest thing we have to an ultimate game, at the time of release that was half of the regions and a majority of the Pokémon could be obtained.

 

[BlueWaves]

Funnily enough, Masuda had mentioned the reason the games were called DP was because he wanted them to be “ Ultimate “ Pokémon titles.

As much as I love DP, there’s definitely one thing that prevents from being the ultimate Pokémon game. There not strictly bad games, but there’s no reason to play them over Platinum. They are obsolete. I could see people argue that Platinum is the ultimate game in the series though. In fact the only reason I can see someone justifying playing DP over Platinum is to complete the Pokédex in either HGSS or Platinum, simply due to the fact that Glameow and Stunky can only be found in Pearl and Diamond respectively in Gen 4. That’s the only reason I can think of for playing DP again, for those lines in order to complete the Dex.

 

[CynthiaLover]

Let me think about it... How about NO!

 

[WyndonCalling]

Let me think about it... How about NO!

Anything more to elaborate on this? Disliking them is fine, but are there specific reasons?

 

[Chidamari Sketch]

 

[CynthiaLover]

Anything more to elaborate on this? Disliking them is fine, but are there specific reasons?

That's simple: Platinum outstrips them by a country mile. Why should I play a slow-paced game with a limited dex, a barebones story, a meh post-game, and virtually no extra content when I can play Platinum instead? DP are obsolete compared to their "successor". Plus, they're not even canon, as Cynthia mentions a trainer and the Distortion World when you talk to her in Gen 5, which is only available in Platinum. So, why should DP be considered the "ultimate" games when they've got so many glaring flaws and are rendered completely obsolete when put next to Platinum?

EDIT: I should also point out that it's strange that you're calling me out when at least two other users on this thread pretty much said the exact same thing in their first posts. Any particular reason why?

 

[Esserise]

I think, strictly speaking, the nature of the topic question sort of asks that DP be evaluated in the context of when they came out. Platinum and any subsequent games are obviously going to have major improvements, but the matter at hand is Masuda wanting Diamond & Pearl to be the "ultimate" games relative to what had come before. Not necessarily forever and for all time, but at the time of making.

Still, I think even in 2006, there would be some pretty fair arguments in favor of Crystal or Emerald outranking Diamond & Pearl (disregarding my own personal feelings about any of those games). For as much as DP widen the scope of the Pokémon universe and playerbase, Crystal boasts two regions and the final boss fight against Red, while Emerald has the at-that-point unprecedented Battle Frontier and a storyline that features two villain teams and two Legendary Pokémon clashing in a titanic battle. I could certainly imagine either of those profiles seeming more to some fans as the pinnacle of the series at that point.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Yeah, the title of this thread is a bit vague but I think the spirit of it is essentially asking about them at the point of release. So citing Platinum and beyond isn’t really a solid argument.

 

[Daren]

Even looking at the context of the time I find DP disappointing after Emerald, although they did a lot for the mechanics of the series with the second special split and a bunch of new moves to compensate (though a few like Physical Electric were still left in a poor shape).
DP lacking the sort of expansive post-game Emerald gave us, skipped move tutors (that was about when it seemed clear they were delaying a lot of training options for later releases) and the dex was pretty questionable with so many of the new Pokémon relegated to the post-game and the infamous "hope you like Rapidash!" issue.

 

[Alola]

Ultimate games have only two Fire-type lines for the playthrough?

 

[Esserise]

I know the lack of Fire types is obnoxious, but it’s not exactly a game-breaking issue. Fire’s good against what? Grass, Ice, Steel, and Bug. All of which have plenty of other (frankly, better) counters.