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What did you NOT like about Sun&Moon?

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. They really, really don´t look or feel like Pokemon to me, and this kinda messes my whole perception of the game.
That's the whole point of their designs, though-they're not supposed to feel like Pokemon at all.
Instead of making either group, they could've devoted a lot of attention on making genuine new Pokemon.
Ultra Beasts are a species of Pokemon that are not an evolution or alternate form of a previously existing one. Exactly what is the criteria for a "genuine new Pokemon"?
But I agree with you, as they're starting to pollute the airwaves just like previous "big shot" Mons. Kinda makes you miss the old days, huh? When UBs didn't exist.
And before Ultra Beasts, Mega Evolution was a staple of many teams, and before that, Dragon types were used on most teams. It's not like Ultra Beasts suddenly changed the way people played.


All but two of the UBs have at least one of their defense stats (if not both, with Pheromosa and Guzzlord) below 60, and every UB in that same group has a double weakness. (Flying for Buzzwole/Pheromosa, Fire for Kartana, Fairy for Guzzlord, and Ground for Nihilego) Dazzling Gleam, Earthquake, Heat Wave, Flamethrower, Moonblast-all are pretty commonly used moves that would take them down rapidly. UBs are far from an impossible threat.
 
Pretense
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It's also how I feel about Alolan Forms.
Alolan forms aren't overpowered at all. If your only problem with them is the fact that they're limited to Generation I, that is just bias. I'm sure it will change in the next game, anyway.
 
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I have to agree with this. I like Nihilego, but the others don't really add anything to the lore and feel like a cheap way to add competitive Pokemon to the metagame.

Granted, Mega Evolution was pretty cheap and forced, too. Hopefully the number of Ultra Beasts won't be increased.
Glad you agree about the UBs.

As for Mega Evolution, I am actually a fan of it. Or, to be more clear, I am a fan of the Megas themselves design wise, not so much
much a fan of the mechanic.
Kinda makes you miss the old days, huh? When UBs didn't exist.
Yes. It really does.
That's the whole point of their designs, though-they're not supposed to feel like Pokemon at all
I know. That's precisely why I don't like them.
 
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Pretense
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As for Mega Evolution, I am actually a fan of it. Or, to be more clear, I am a fan of the Megas themselves design wise, not so much a fan of the mechanic.
I'm fine with most of the designs. But the mechanic was too overcentralizing, which is a problem when only a fraction of Pokemon benefit from it.

In terms of lore... I thought it was handled worse than the Ultra Beasts' was.
 
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debates about Rugrats canon
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When it comes down to it, lore in the games is a useless superficiality. It's something that can be good and that I enjoy having, sure, but it's not like the games would wither and die without it. It's not like the majority of Pokémon have some complex story behind them; they all exist primarily for gameplay purposes anyway. Even a lot of Legendary Pokémon have only as much lore as the UBs, and I think that's... really all they need, in the end. Enough to make an impression and to get the point across.

I can't really complain about the UBs' background being simply "they're from a weird dimension" when Mega Evolution just showed us the futility of trying to force in a narrative justification for these things. They couldn't even keep the lore behind Mega Evolution consistent across two games, and what did it all add up to? Nothing. We never needed magical WMDs or split timelines to justify a game mechanic. Hence Z-Moves strolling along without any big questions being placed on their origins, and indeed, Sina and Dexio handing you the stuff you need for Mega Evolution without talking about any of its lore. Personally, if Game Freak want to have a crack at some bizarre-looking alien Pokémon with unusual stat spreads, then I think that's a sufficient justification unto itself, though I'll admit that it helps that I really love the designs of all the UBs.

Besides, I'd argue that we've had plenty of weirdos before. I don't see how Pheromosa, Kartana, or Nihilego are any weirder than Deoxys, Cradily, Sigilyph, Claydol, Ferrothorn, or Magnemite. By what measure is an origami creature more unnatural than a cyclopean metal orb with magnets and screws for limbs?
 
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Besides, I'd argue that we've had plenty of weirdos before. I don't see how Pheromosa, Kartana, or Nihilego are any weirder than Deoxys, Cradily, Sigilyph, Claydol, Ferrothorn, or Magnemite. By what measure is an origami creature more unnatural than a cyclopean metal orb with magnets and screws for limbs?
They aren't much weirder, but they stick out due to being introduced in a group of a whopping 8 (or 9 if you count Necrozma, which I would design-wise).

Even a lot of Legendary Pokémon have only as much lore as the UBs, and I think that's... really all they need, in the end. Enough to make an impression and to get the point across.
That much is fine, but I felt that Nihilego had something good going for it and the other UBs detracted from it. I'd prefer it if Nihilego just had a bunch of forms, although they wouldn't look that distinct from each other.

My main problem is how clear it is that Game Freak designed them to be among the most competitively viable Pokemon in this generation.
 
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They aren't much weirder, but they stick out due to being introduced in a group of a whopping 8 (or 9 if you count Necrozma, which I would design-wise).
That is true. And even I think the ones we have are enough - but I think it makes more sense to unload them all at once under one umbrella as a generational gimmick, rather than parceling them out over a long stretch of time.

That much is fine, but I felt that Nihilego had something good going for it and the other UBs detracted from it. I'd prefer it if Nihilego just had a bunch of forms, although they wouldn't look that distinct from each other.
Fair enough. Personally, I think that would feel like a retread of Deoxys, but I can see why that approach would have its own appeal.

My main problem is how clear it is that Game Freak designed them to be among the most competitively viable Pokemon in this generation.
I'm not too keen on that either if I'm honest - it is very blatant. But as a non-competitive player, it's outside my sphere and only can only bother me so much.
 
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My main problem is how clear it is that Game Freak designed them to be among the most competitively viable Pokemon in this generation.
Perhaps I don't understand enough of competitive play, but why are they considered the most competitively viable? They've certainly got a lot of strengths offensively, but they also tend to have quite low defenses, and double weaknesses to common types offensively. They're obviously getting a lot of use, like CynthiaLover mentioned, but I don't see why something with such a weak spot would overshadow other Pokemon.
 
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First, a correction: There are 7 UBs, or 8 if we include Necrozma.

I am not a competitive player myself (in part because of my disdain for having to counter specific Pokemon), but going by Smogon's OU viability rankings, the only one that is not viable is the fat one Guzzlord. Pheromosa is at the very top (S rank), Celesteela is A+, Nihilego is B+, Buzzwole and Kartana are B, Necrozma is C+, and Xuriktree is C. So you're right that only Pheromosa and Celesteela can be considered overcentralizing, but the fact remains that the only other Generation VII representatives (excluding Alolan forms) are the Tapus, Magearna, Toxapex, Mimikyu, Primarina and if we go all the way down to the borderline cases, Decidueye, Minior and Pyukumuku.

Maybe it is not fair to say that the problem is with the UBs so much as legendaries combined with UBs. Generation VII introduced as many as 16 of them, and as you can see, very few new Pokemon manage to stand out alongside them.
 
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First, a correction: There are 7 UBs, or 8 if we include Necrozma.

I am not a competitive player myself (in part because of my disdain for having to counter specific Pokemon), but going by Smogon's OU viability rankings, the only one that is not viable is the fat one Guzzlord. Pheromosa is at the very top (S rank), Celesteela is A+, Nihilego is B+, Buzzwole and Kartana are B, Necrozma is C+, and Xuriktree is C. So you're right that only Pheromosa and Celesteela can be considered overcentralizing, but the fact remains that the only other Generation VII representatives (excluding Alolan forms) are the Tapus, Magearna, Toxapex, Mimikyu, Primarina and if we go all the way down to the borderline cases, Decidueye, Minior and Pyukumuku.

Maybe it is not fair to say that the problem is with the UBs so much as legendaries combined with UBs. Generation VII introduced as many as 16 of them, and as you can see, very few new Pokemon manage to stand out alongside them.
I'm confused as to who you're correcting-nobody in this thread has said that there aren't 7 UBs.

While certainly an excellent resource, Smogon isn't the final judge of how viable a Pokemon is. That list itself is still undergoing development. and has only been around for about two months. It's worth noting, too, that the list doesn't distinguish between offensive, defense, and supportive threats.

Where are you getting 16 legendary Pokemon from? Even including the Type: Null line and the Tapus, that's only 11 legendary Pokemon, two of which you'd be hard-pressed to find much use for.
 
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I'm confused as to who you're correcting-nobody in this thread has said that there aren't 7 UBs.
I corrected myself, since I thought there were 8 excluding Necrozma.

Where are you getting 16 legendary Pokemon from?
16 is the total number of legendaries and UBs, not counting Cosmog and Cosmoem. It's 17 with Silvally.
 
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First, a correction: There are 7 UBs, or 8 if we include Necrozma.

I am not a competitive player myself (in part because of my disdain for having to counter specific Pokemon), but going by Smogon's OU viability rankings, the only one that is not viable is the fat one Guzzlord. Pheromosa is at the very top (S rank), Celesteela is A+, Nihilego is B+, Buzzwole and Kartana are B, Necrozma is C+, and Xuriktree is C. So you're right that only Pheromosa and Celesteela can be considered overcentralizing, but the fact remains that the only other Generation VII representatives (excluding Alolan forms) are the Tapus, Magearna, Toxapex, Mimikyu, Primarina and if we go all the way down to the borderline cases, Decidueye, Minior and Pyukumuku.

Maybe it is not fair to say that the problem is with the UBs so much as legendaries combined with UBs. Generation VII introduced as many as 16 of them, and as you can see, very few new Pokemon manage to stand out alongside them.
It should be noted that it's not the UB's fault that the rest of the Alola Dex is so unviable.

That's on Game Freak for giving most Alolan mon such awkward stat spreads (ex. Decidueye.) The UB's stats are (an albeit exaggerated) microcosm of what most Generations' stat spreads look like.
 
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That's on Game Freak for giving most Alolan mon such awkward stat spreads (ex. Decidueye.) The UB's stats are (an albeit exaggerated) microcosm of what most Generations' stat spreads look like.
i don't see how Decidueye's spread is any less awkward than say Blaziken's. also i wouldn't really say min-maxing is really "an exaggerated microcosm" of what other generations have already done anyways.
 
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I'm not a fan of the UB's either. It was alright when it was just one, though I was still a bit annoyed we weren't getting a storyline that mostly revolved around Team Skull. And then even more got revealed and it was hinted we were getting way more too and it became overkill for me already. And then it was revealed they're were 'just' Pokémon and it became even more annoying. I get that we have more alien-like Pokémon, but I guess the most annoying part is that they kept hinting that these weren't Pokémon and something different entirely only for them to be....just Pokémon. Which you can actually catch and battle with and pet in Amie :/ And Deoxys' design never bothered me, it looks a lot more as a Pokémon than any of the UB's do. Maybe it's the lack of eyes or something...

I could've lived with catching them, as in sealing them away or something because they're too strong to defeat. But the whole 'please help us get rid of these extremely dangerous aliens and oh we've called with our boss and you can keep these extremely dangerous aliens as your pet' is just ridiculous.
 
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And then even more got revealed and it was hinted we were getting way more too and it became overkill for me already. And then it was revealed they're were 'just' Pokémon and it became even more annoying.
I think that's something the fandom (myself included) built up far more than the promotion did. Really, the only part of the marketing that I remember putting their nature into question didn't even really do so directly; it's just that we extrapolated from this sentence:

> "Ultra Beasts possess mighty powers and could pose a threat to humans and Pokémon, so they are feared."

...as well as their placement on the Alola Region section of the site rather than the Pokémon section, and deduced that they may not be Pokémon.

As far as the games themselves go, they're referred to as Pokémon in the very first scene that talks about them. Right after entering Ultra Space, Lillie does wonder for a brief moment if they really are Pokémon or not, but that's about as far as the games go in terms of questioning what they are.

I could've lived with catching them, as in sealing them away or something because they're too strong to defeat. But the whole 'please help us get rid of these extremely dangerous aliens and oh we've called with our boss and you can keep these extremely dangerous aliens as your pet' is just ridiculous.
Surely it's no more ridiculous than DPP letting us catch extradimensional Pokémon that purportedly rule the universe and can potentially destroy the world? Being able to catch and battle with creatures of immense power that we realistically have no business owning whatsoever is kind of a series staple at this point.

Like, we can even catch the tapu. The sacred beings that Alola's whole society kinda depends upon... personally, I found that harder to swallow than us getting to keep the UBs.
 
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Ultra Beasts are a species of Pokemon that are not an evolution or alternate form of a previously existing one. Exactly what is the criteria for a "genuine new Pokemon"?
Because they're not the creatures we've come to know and love. They are other dimensional monsters that have been clearly labeled as a "threat to humanity" by both their lore and in-game. Now since when are Pokemon "a threat to humanity"? And if you're going to say that catching Pokemon like Giratina and such follow the same mentality, at least they look and act like Pokemon would. Instead of making UBs into "viable" Pokemon to shove down our throats, GF should've devoted their time to creating creatures that we've come to know and love, using themes, creatures, and objects that exist. Sure, I don't mind mythological Pokemon, as Pokemon based off of legends and myths of old are fine, since they can do them well, these... things are not genuine Pokemon, as they're more like a sci-fi movie invaders that are labeled as threats. So that's why I feel that GF should've spent more time working on creatures that actually LOOK and ACT like Pokemon, not invaders from another dimension that are very hostile and very dangerous. And don't say that big 4X weaknesses and low defenses will make them any more like Pokemon, because if you can't exploit those weaknesses, then it's like they don't have any weaknesses at all. If there is one thing we've learned in Pokemon, it's that super effective type match-ups are more of a bonus when compared to raw power and strategy together.

Alolan forms aren't overpowered at all. If your only problem with them is the fact that they're limited to Generation I, that is just bias. I'm sure it will change in the next game, anyway.
Ho ho! You think I'm biased, eh? Well you should be saying that to GF. Clearly they're the biased ones. Tell me something. How many games over the past few years have focused primarily on the new Pokemon? Hmm? Zilch. XY favored Kanto Pokemon more than Kalos, with Kanto Mons outnumbering Kalos nearly 2:1. Plus only 1 Kalos Pokemon got a Mega, compared to 10 Kanto Pokemon, two of which got a double serving of it. GO, until very recently, was solely focused on Gen 1 Pokemon for a number of years. The VC releases of RBY are also Gen 1 favoritism. And SM not only put into play more Kanto Pokemon in the dex than Alola Pokemon, but Alolan Forms are solely Gen 1 Pokemon, AND made the Alola Pokemon rarer and harder to find compared to the Kanto ones. And no, the 20th anniversary isn't a good enough reason to shove aside Gens 2-7, treating them like they don't exist, in favor of Gen 1. So let's see... who here is clearly biased? Me, or GF? I at least want the new guys to take center stage during their generation, as it's their time in the spotlight, not get overshadowed by the not-so-golden oldies each and every gen. So my only bias is that I want the new Pokemon, the new characters, and the new region to take center stage during their respective generation, and not have Gen 1 shoved down our throats each and every day instead. It's stuff like this that have further soured my feelings toward Gen 1. So you may say I'm biased, but I just want the new guys to have their time in the spotlight during their respective runs and not have Kanto glorification squander that in each and every game. It's times like this I greatly respect BW and Gen 5 as a whole, since they did it right. You call it bias, I call it giving the new guys a chance to shine.
 
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Let's not forget this is the same universe that has God as a Pokémon.
If you're referring to the Abrahamic God, then no it doesn't. Arceus has far more in common with deities and culture heroes in far eastern and Polynesian myth
 
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Ho ho! You think I'm biased, eh? Well you should be saying that to GF. Clearly they're the biased ones. Tell me something. How many games over the past few years have focused primarily on the new Pokemon? Hmm? Zilch. XY favored Kanto Pokemon more than Kalos, with Kanto Mons outnumbering Kalos nearly 2:1. Plus only 1 Kalos Pokemon got a Mega, compared to 10 Kanto Pokemon, two of which got a double serving of it. GO, until very recently, was solely focused on Gen 1 Pokemon for a number of years. The VC releases of RBY are also Gen 1 favoritism. And SM not only put into play more Kanto Pokemon in the dex than Alola Pokemon, but Alolan Forms are solely Gen 1 Pokemon, AND made the Alola Pokemon rarer and harder to find compared to the Kanto ones. And no, the 20th anniversary isn't a good enough reason to shove aside Gens 2-7, treating them like they don't exist, in favor of Gen 1. So let's see... who here is clearly biased? Me, or GF? I at least want the new guys to take center stage during their generation, as it's their time in the spotlight, not get overshadowed by the not-so-golden oldies each and every gen. So my only bias is that I want the new Pokemon, the new characters, and the new region to take center stage during their respective generation, and not have Gen 1 shoved down our throats each and every day instead. It's stuff like this that have further soured my feelings toward Gen 1. So you may say I'm biased, but I just want the new guys to have their time in the spotlight during their respective runs and not have Kanto glorification squander that in each and every game. It's times like this I greatly respect BW and Gen 5 as a whole, since they did it right. You call it bias, I call it giving the new guys a chance to shine.
i mean, you being biased and Game Freak being biased aren't mutually exclusive. you spent this lengthy paragraph talking about how unfair it is that new Pokemon are brushed aside for old Pokemon but.......... no wait, you pretty much just harped on Gen I Pokemon vs the rest. whether you like it or not, you're clearly biased against Gen 1 because otherwise your argument would have been focused more (if not entirely) on not!CurrentGen vs. CurrentGen rather than how much more Gen 1 appears over CurrentGen. your argument would not have been how Kanto Pokes are nearly double of Kalos Pokes, but rather how there's 70-odd Kalos Pokes in a total Dex of 450, leaving them grossly outnumbered.

and you're right, Game Freak is biased. of course they're biased. everyone knows Chorizord and Pekacho. Lucario is more recognizable to people than Skuntank. and you can bet that if it makes them more money, they're gonna whore out Charizard over Maractus, even if the latter is (well....was) the new one and ~in season~.

(also fun fact: POGO hasn't even been out for a year yet.)
 
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