What did you NOT like about Sun&Moon?

[Muur]

i mean, the national dex has done nothing for a long time. even with it removed the Shiny Charm is earned by completing the Alola Dex.

So? only a minor fraction of people care about the shiny charm

I guarente more people care about the national dex than the shiny charm. Unless you start a new Poke Bank account and then send in Pokemon of every stage (so a Pichu, a Pikachu and a Raichu) you have no way of checking in game yourself without it and that's stupid. Your dex is maxed out at 302 (301 right now) and if you use the same Bank as from gen 6... your national dex may already be filled out from when you did it in gen 6. With no in game national dex and with it capping out at 302... what's the point?

They just wanted easy money

 

[Esserise]

Personally, to be honest, I was surprised that anybody cared about the National Dex at all.

Is there a particularly large contingent of people who try to complete the National Dex bare-knuckled, from scratch, every generation, rather than simply transferring up their completed Dex and catching just the new ones?

I mean, you can still do that anyway, even without a National Dex function in the game, so is the problem instead that there aren't Dex entries? I didn't imagine that those were a very big deal.

I guess I just don't see much value in three lines of overexaggerated flavor text per Pokémon that I can just as easily look up on Bulbapedia. That's me, though. Just saying I can't seem to wrap my head around what exactly we really lost.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Personally, to be honest, I was surprised that anybody cared about the National Dex at all.

Is there a particularly large contingent of people who try to complete the National Dex bare-knuckled, from scratch, every generation, rather than simply transferring up their completed Dex and catching just the new ones?

I mean, you can still do that anyway, even without a National Dex function in the game, so is the problem instead that there aren't Dex entries? I didn't imagine that those were a very big deal.

I guess I just don't see much value in three lines of overexaggerated flavor text per Pokémon that I can just as easily look up on Bulbapedia. That's me, though. Just saying I can't seem to wrap my head around what exactly we really lost.

It's not about the flavor text, it's about completionism. The Pokedex serves as an extra goal in the game, part of Pokemon's replay value is in finding all of the Pokemon in the game. Having a National Dex tied to Pokemon Bank and removed from the main game takes most of the fun out of looking for the Pokemon. It's like playing Mario Galaxy and getting 120 Stars automatically because you already beat the last game, it defeats the purpose.

 

[Aulos]

Personally, to be honest, I was surprised that anybody cared about the National Dex at all.

Is there a particularly large contingent of people who try to complete the National Dex bare-knuckled, from scratch, every generation, rather than simply transferring up their completed Dex and catching just the new ones?

I mean, you can still do that anyway, even without a National Dex function in the game, so is the problem instead that there aren't Dex entries? I didn't imagine that those were a very big deal.

I guess I just don't see much value in three lines of overexaggerated flavor text per Pokémon that I can just as easily look up on Bulbapedia. That's me, though. Just saying I can't seem to wrap my head around what exactly we really lost.

No, it's not about starting from scratch every single time, nor is it about seeing Pokedex entries. It's that if you transfer your Pokemon over into Sun/Moon, the ones that are not in the Alolan Pokedex will not be registered at all in anything. You never are able to see your completion of the full Pokedex, unless you have Pokemon Bank, which is an extra fee.

That makes using Sun/Moon as continuing toward a full Pokedex useless.

It makes the game feel so incomplete, and in a very strange "Why in the world would they do that?" way.

Going off of Bolt the Cat's Super Mario Galaxy comparison. Imagine if there was a Super Mario 3D game with 120 stars, but only half of them counted for anything. Not only would only 60 count for anything, but if you collected more it wouldn't tally them in any way so you couldn't see how close you are to completion unless you manually calculated it yourself.

It's not a perfect comparison, of course, but I hope it helps.

 

[godiego]

I don't care about the Shiny Charm. I'm frustrated by the fact that there are a ton of Pokemon that exist that are not registered by the game. A great part of the post-game is trying to collect as many Pokemon as you can, and in this game they aren't even registered. It makes the whole thing feel completely pointless.

I guarente more people care about the national dex than the shiny charm. Unless you start a new Poke Bank account and then send in Pokemon of every stage (so a Pichu, a Pikachu and a Raichu) you have no way of checking in game yourself without it and that's stupid. Your dex is maxed out at 302 (301 right now) and if you use the same Bank as from gen 6... your national dex may already be filled out from when you did it in gen 6. With no in game national dex and with it capping out at 302... what's the point?

They just wanted easy money

i mean, the game doesn't prevent you from using them so i don't understand all this "but they're not registered" nonsense yall going on about.

the national dex existing doesn't prevent you from cheesing the completionism either, so the complaint comes off as.....very trivial.

 

[Esserise]

It's not about the flavor text, it's about completionism. The Pokedex serves as an extra goal in the game, part of Pokemon's replay value is in finding all of the Pokemon in the game. Having a National Dex tied to Pokemon Bank and removed from the main game takes most of the fun out of looking for the Pokemon. It's like playing Mario Galaxy and getting 120 Stars automatically because you already beat the last game, it defeats the purpose.

I understand the appeal of completing the Pokédex, of course. I've done it too, after all.

What I'm saying is: I never really got the impression that it was very popular to complete the National Dex from scratch every generation. I'd thought it was more common to complete it in whatever generation you happened to complete it in, and then just rely on that collection to do most of the heavy lifting in subsequent generations via transferring, while still working to catch all of the new Pokémon.

Were my impression correct, then little has changed as a result of the National Dex's removal. Players who completed it in past generations already did the main work in the previous generation, and in SM, are only doing the amount of work they'd have done anyway. What's missing? Basically just the Dex entries for Pokémon outside of SM's Regional Dex. Which I didn't expect to be seen as a huge loss, since they're just Dex entries.

On the other hand, for the, I guess, tons of people who actually do restart a new National Dex quest every time around... well, they can still do that, and all that's missing is basically the Dex entries. And, I suppose, an in-game checklist, but you can still be completionist about it by, you know, actually collecting all of the Pokémon.

So really, completionists can still do everything that they were able to do before. They'll just get the Shiny Charm sooner, and the Pokédex entries are gone. So I still don't really see how it's not about the flavor text.

And just to be clear, I don't know the first thing about Mario, so these analogies aren't really helping me.

 

[Aulos]

@Esserise You just seem to be missing the point. For completionists there is a big thing missing here. If you were wanting to complete the Pokedex would you want to have a game where the majority of Pokemon can't even be registered and thus don't count toward any tally whatsoever in the game. Would you really want to have to manually calculate that yourself?

As for me, I've never been a hardcore completionist, but I do like to collect more toward the goal each generation. This game just slammed the door right in my face and made it pointless for absolutely no reason. Sure you could still collect every single Pokemon in Sun/Moon, but nothing shows your progress, unless you subscribe to Pokemon Bank, which is an outside application.

It just feels pointless. It feels like Gamefreak doesn't even want us to do it. I'm sorry you don't see the value in it, but the feature is a very cumbersome removal and is I would say by far the worst decision I have ever seen made in any Pokemon game so far. It makes the game feel incomplete, it makes it feel pointless.

 

[Bolt Strike]

What I'm saying is: I never really got the impression that it was very popular to complete the National Dex from scratch every generation. I'd thought it was more common to complete it in whatever generation you happened to complete it in, and then just rely on that collection to do most of the heavy lifting in subsequent generations via transferring, while still working to catch all of the new Pokémon.

I've never really done that. I hunt for every Pokemon that can possibly be caught in the game and only transfer the ones that have to be transferred. I actually find it a little more tedious to transfer something you can already get in the main game unless it's something even more tedious to obtain (like say, Feebas in RSE and DPPt).

On the other hand, for the, I guess, tons of people who actually do restart a new National Dex quest every time around... well, they can still do that, and all that's missing is basically the Dex entries. And, I suppose, an in-game checklist, but you can still be completionist about it by, you know, actually collecting all of the Pokémon.

Good luck keeping track of that yourself when there's 800 Pokemon now.

And just to be clear, I don't know the first thing about Mario, so these analogies aren't really helping me.

Okay then, try this. Imagine if instead of Trials you progressed in the game based on how many Zygarde Cells you collected and the entire game was about exploring Alola to form Complete Zygarde (ignoring potential issues with that form of progression being tedious and a needle in a haystack, games like Mario 64 tend to make their collection elements a little more obvious and easier to find). Now imagine after you get 50% Zygarde you get handed another 50% Zygarde and can automatically form a Complete Zygarde and beat the game. The game's more accessible, but at the cost of making the other half of the game irrelevant, it would really ruin the experience for people who want to make the most out of the game and see all there is to see.

 

[Muur]

Or if you go with Xbox and Playstation, you play say Final Fantasy 15 and you start on 50% trophies/achievements cuz you already beat the last game in the franchise. Then you don't get the fun of getting all the trophies since half are given to you just cuz

I've never actually beat a National Dex but why should my game be limited to saying I've only caught the 301 (I have the 301 on Sun, wasn't hard tbh) when the actual number would be like 500 or something from the guys I moved over (mainly former team mates and legendaries) if I ever did want to do the 802 on Sun... there'd be no point cuz i'd just be writing down which guys I was catching/evolving and if I wanted to show someone I'd done it, there'd be no way other than going into Poke Bank I guess? (which counts my X and Omega Ruby Pokedexs so 500 dudes are already registered in the Bank National Dex) so it was kinda pointless

I'd say there's a very high chance the National Dex returns after the backlash from its removal. Will the shiny charm go back to needing 802 dudes? who knows, probably but when the mantra of the games was "gotta catch them all", you can't really do that any more

 

[Esserise]

If you were wanting to complete the Pokedex would you want to have a game where the majority of Pokemon can't even be registered and thus don't count toward any tally whatsoever in the game. Would you really want to have to manually calculate that yourself?

I mean, as I said, I did complete the Pokédex, and I don't think I could care less about whether they're "registered" or whatever; they're all in my PC and it's satisfying enough to look at there. I don't really see how a vague status of "registration" would improve that feeling. I did the work, and it's all evident and readily viewable in my PC.

I've never really done that. I hunt for every Pokemon that can possibly be caught in the game and only transfer the ones that have to be transferred. I actually find it a little more tedious to transfer something you can already get in the main game unless it's something even more tedious to obtain (like say, Feebas in RSE and DPPt).

Fair enough, but as I explained, regardless of the approach you take, the only substantial thing missing is the Dex entries.

Good luck keeping track of that yourself when there's 800 Pokemon now.

... I assume you're familiar with the Internet?

Never mind that the reason why they're de-emphasizing the National Dex is because there are so many Pokémon now.

Okay then, try this. Imagine if instead of Trials you progressed in the game based on how many Zygarde Cells you collected and the entire game was about exploring Alola to form Complete Zygarde (ignoring potential issues with that form of progression being tedious and a needle in a haystack, games like Mario 64 tend to make their collection elements a little more obvious and easier to find). Now imagine after you get 50% Zygarde you get handed another 50% Zygarde and can automatically form a Complete Zygarde and beat the game. The game's more accessible, but at the cost of making the other half of the game irrelevant, it would really ruin the experience for people who want to make the most out of the game and see all there is to see.

Yeah but like

You can still complete the National Dex the "proper" way. You just don't get Dex entries or "registration."

What we have now is like if the game revolved around collecting Zygarde Cells, and you could still collect all of them yourself, but you just wouldn't get a Pokédex entry for Complete Forme, and you'd get whatever other special reward at the halfway point instead of at the end. Collecting the remaining Cells on your own would still be a hobby you could pursue.

 

[SpikOriundo]

Actually, you can still check the registered Pokémon on the search function of the PC.
While I don't feel "hurt", specifically, by not having a National Dex in the game, I do think there should of have been. Even if they recycled the old dex entries, there... Really isn't any reason to not include the National Dex. Unless they didn't add it because they thought people would feel cheated that if they didn't also create 2 new entries for each not-included Pokémon, which... Would take a loooong time.

 

[Aulos]

I mean, as I said, I did complete the Pokédex, and I don't think I could care less about whether they're "registered" or whatever; they're all in my PC and it's satisfying enough to look at there. I don't really see how a vague status of "registration" would improve that feeling. I did the work, and it's all evident and readily viewable in my PC.

The registration is a way of helping people who haven't already completed the Pokedex keep track of how close they are to finishing the Pokedex. This is my point, there is nothing to help you tally how close you are to completing the whole Pokedex or not.

 

[Bolt Strike]

... I assume you're familiar with the Internet?

Even with the internet you're not going to be able to remember which of those you already have and which of those you don't. You absolutely need the game to keep track of this list for you at this point.

Never mind that the reason why they're de-emphasizing the National Dex is because there are so many Pokémon now.

Again though, it's enforced accessibility, the way they've done it deprives the people that still want to complete the game that way of the opportunity (which is really the core of the issue here and a major recurring problem with the design philosophy of their recent games). I'm all in favor of a system that makes completing the National Dex less of a chore, but it should be optional, let the people who want to complete the Dex the old fashioned way do so and the people that don't can rely on transfers.

Yeah but like

You can still complete the National Dex the "proper" way. You just don't get Dex entries or "registration."

Thing is that the act of registration is what defines Dex completion in the first place. So by definition you're not completing the National Dex, you're just collecting a group of Pokemon.

What we have now is like if the game revolved around collecting Zygarde Cores, and you could still collect all of them yourself, but you just wouldn't get a Pokédex entry for Complete Forme, and you'd get whatever other special reward at the halfway point instead of at the end. Collecting the remaining Cells on your own would still be a hobby you could pursue.

You're not getting the analogy. Once you get Complete Form, the story ends and you beat the game. Meanwhile, the remaining 50% serve no real purpose other than getting a 3rd 50% Zygarde. Sure, you could go and get another 50% Zygarde, but what would the real point be? The main purpose of the Cells is to complete the game and you don't need those extra 50% to beat the game. Rendering those extra Cells pointless.

 

[Esserise]

Even with the internet you're not going to be able to remember which of those you already have and which of those you don't. You absolutely need the game to keep track of this list for you at this point.

If you have access to the Internet, then chances are that you have access to some sort of word processor. Is it so hard to type out your progress? Sure, it's not ideal, but you don't "absolutely need" the game to do it for you.

I mean, if you're able to go onto these forums to lament the National Dex's removal, then you most likely have all the tools necessary to do what it would do on your own.

Again though, it's enforced accessibility, the way they've done it deprives the people that still want to complete the game that way of the opportunity. I'm all in favor of a system that makes completing the National Dex less of a chore, but it should be optional, let the people who want to complete the Dex the old fashioned way do so and the people that don't can rely on transfers.

This.

Option.

Is.

Still.

THERE,

Just without Dex entries.

Thing is that the act of registration is what defines Dex completion in the first place. So by definition you're not completing the National Dex, you're just collecting a group of Pokemon.

The end result is the same: You have collected every Pokémon.

You're not getting the analogy. Once you get Complete Form, the story ends and you beat the game. Meanwhile, the remaining 50% serve no real purpose other than getting a 3rd 50% Zygarde. Sure, you could go and get another 50% Zygarde, but what would the real point be? The main purpose of the Cells is to complete the game and you don't need those extra 50% to beat the game. Rendering those extra Cells pointless.

Let me rephrase.

Completing any Pokédex is entirely optional. Assembling a Zygarde is also entirely optional.

But there's a "grand prize" for fulfilling each task. For completing the National Dex (in pre-SM games), you get a Shiny Charm. For assembling all of Zygarde's Cells, you get to make a Zygarde with Power Construct, enabling access to its Complete Forme.

SM have adjusted the former task so that the "grand prize" is now obtained for achieving a smaller goal; completing the Regional Dex. But you can still do what is functionally the same thing as "completing the National Dex," the difference is that you've already claimed what would have been the prize for that, and there are no Dex entries for those extra Pokémon.

If the Zygarde quest were to be adjusted in the same way, then you would be able to assemble a Power Construct Zygarde after collecting 50 Cells (and let's imagine that these 50 Cells have Pokédex entries). The "grand prize" is now obtained for achieving a smaller goal; collecting 50 Zygarde Cells. But you can still do what is functionally the same thing as "collecting all 100 Cells," the difference is that you've already claimed what would have been the prize for that, and there are no Dex entries for those remaining Cells.

So what are we worried about here?

That there's no "grand prize" for completing the full goal? Except there is, you just obtain it earlier, and we know that Game Freak did this consciously as a way to make it less tedious to obtain the Shiny Charm.

But hang on, because didn't @Muur "guarantee" up above that "more people care" about the National Dex than the Shiny Charm? So whether there's a reward for achieving the maximum, beyond-what's-expected goal isn't the point. The point would seem to be the satisfaction of completionism unto itself. But that satisfaction hinges on some corner of the game saying, "yes, this is registered"? Not, you know, actually owning the Pokémon?

So in either case, it would seem that the "issue" is that the non-Regional Pokémon/the other 50 Cells don't have a formal listing or Dex entries.

Which returns me to my original statement: I'm just surprised that people actually cared more about the game casually affirming that they've caught something and offering some absurd flavor text, rather than taking pleasure in the "grand prize" or in the status of physically owning a full collection.

The registration is a way of helping people who haven't already completed the Pokedex keep track of how close they are to finishing the Pokedex. This is my point, there is nothing to help you tally how close you are to completing the whole Pokedex or not.

Yeah, but then we circle back around to the fact that they're de-emphasizing the National Dex because there are so many Pokémon now.

Perhaps I should make my stance clearer: I don't have an issue with there being a National Dex in the game to function as a checklist. I don't think there was anything preventing Game Freak from including one. But it's hardly surprising to me that they excluded it, since they're clearly trying to de-emphasize the goal of catching every Pokémon, and I'm just surprised that people were that upset about it, because to me, when completing my own National Dex, all that the National Dex seemed like was a list that I didn't need (in light of owning a computer with a generic word processor) and flavor text that didn't make for a particularly thrilling read.

Although I can't help but scratch my head at the notion that they moved it to the Bank as a cash grab of some sort. I doubt that people are going to finally choose to break open their wallet for Bank just to access the National Dex of all things (not, you know, the oodles of storage space and monoconsole multi-game compatibility, which are the headlines of the feature?), but more than that, it suggests an odd double-think on Game Freak's part in that they would, on one hand, want to de-emphasize the goal of catching every Pokémon and make the Charms more accessible and easier to obtain, and yet on the other hand would hold a gun to the National Dex's head and force people to pony up before they can access it, despite it being something that they're simultaneously trying to steer away from? They're trying to squeeze people for money but are actively dissuading people from doing the thing that they'd now need to pay extra for?

In that regard, I think they just rolled it into the Bank because Bank has an obvious appeal to people who are inclined to be storing lots of Pokémon, which the National Dex tends to involve.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I'd like to point out that in the beginning, Pokémon's motto was
"Gotta Chatch 'em all!"

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

I didn't like Sun/Moon either, but one of the things I actually DID enjoy was the exclusion of the National Dex. That was the first time I was ever able to complete a dex.

The games are getting harder and harder now to complete the more Pokemon they introduce. If not for the smaller dex, I wouldn't have even bothered. The fact that you can keep a complete National Dex in Pokemon Bank, which is compatible across multiple games and generations, more than makes up for the lack of National Dex in Sun/Moon.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Or they could include the National Pokédex but only require completing the Alolan Pokédex for the Shiny Charm.

Some Mega Evolved Pokémon don't have Pokédex entries.

 

[Blockhead Pippi]

Or they could include the National Pokédex but only require completing the Alolan Pokédex for the Shiny Charm.

Some Mega Evolved Pokémon don't have Pokédex entries.

Some people want the certificate, not necessarily the shiny charm.

 

[Silktree]

I think that the lack of a National Pokedex is a minor point when you can only obtain around 80 Pokemon that are not in the Alola Pokedex. For all the rest you need Bank, or USUM which might (should) have a National Pokedex.

Complain about the small roster. That's the real problem.

 

[DoctorWhy]

To be quite honest, I don't like that Sun and Moon were just beta versions--only to have their replacements announced a mere 6 months later...

Like seriously, at least the other third versions and enhanced ports were two years apart.