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What do you think of Sun and Moon so far?

But if they barely have a role in episodes not featuring them or introducing their families. And when they don't have a role, we don't even see them or what they do.

But all the other students are just supporting cast. There's no need to keep seeing them. There's only one main character this time and he's Ash.
 
But all the other students are just supporting cast. There's no need to keep seeing them. There's only one main character this time and he's Ash.

That much is obvious, but if this series is truly trying to show the various "layers" of the classmates and the fact that they have lives that don't revolve around Ash, as some people as so perpetually claiming, then why aren't the writers showing said lives?

An episode or two spent without Ash or TRio is not going to hurt them. I mean, they will always stick around in the future, so having some episodes fully dedicated to the other characters and their businesses would actually help some people actually click with them and understand them better, as well as give them some more chances to actually develop and be better fleshed out as characters.

As of now, they seem nothing more than barely relevant recurring characters than anything else, and their immensely slow "development" isn't helping.
 
That much is obvious, but if this series is truly trying to show the various "layers" of the classmates and the fact that they have lives that don't revolve around Ash, as some people as so perpetually claiming, then why aren't the writers showing said lives?

An episode or two spent without Ash or TRio is not going to hurt them. I mean, they will always stick around in the future, so having some episodes fully dedicated to the other characters and their businesses would actually help some people actually click with them and understand them better, as well as give them some more chances to actually develop and be better fleshed out as characters.

As of now, they seem nothing more than barely relevant recurring characters than anything else, and their immensely slow "development" isn't helping.
Actually, I’d love to see a whole few episodes without Ash and Pikachu and focusing 100% on side characters like Ash’s rival(Who would be Gladion now.) I think he should have some episodes with Type:Null.
 
See more aspects of their lives? But if they barely have a role in episodes not featuring them or introducing their families. And when they don't have a role, we don't even see them or what they do.

Some people call that "realism". I call that "the writers not even knowing what to do with them most of the times and as such eliminating them from the episodes in which they are deemed unneeded".

If they really wanted us to see more of their lives, we would actually see them while Ash isn't around. Kinda like Pokémon Chronicles expanded on the various pre-AG characters, if you get what I mean.

In other words, "show, don't tell". Don't make us assume that they are doing whatever we may believe they are doing. For all we know, they could be snoozing and doing homework all day while they are off-screen. Just show us them while they do their "mundane" stuff, if people really care about this kind of (otherwise irrelevant) material.

I accept that a fair criticism of the show is that there is not enough focus on the other characters when Ash isn't there. That's certainly an area they can improve on.

However, for the episode which Ash were present for, I still saw a lot of good things about the characters. Kiawe's ranch, Mallow's restaurant, Lana's dream, Sophocles at home, etc. Ash is just our window in these aspects of their lives. It doesn't matter how "irrelevant" it all seems - every detail, whether played up or incidental, contributes to the overall impression of the character.

Simple answer: because it isn't a priority.

Keep in mind that this is an anime for children. It doesn't need to have overly complex characters with thousands of trivial things tied to them, unless they have some relevance in the future. We're talking about a fiction, not a reality show.

I mean, just look at Cilan. He had thousands of hobbies, but at the end only few of said hobbies did have some relevance to the plot, namely his detective and fishing hobbies. And, honestly speaking, I would have rather have them (the writers) focusing more on those aspects than adding stuff just for the sake of adding stuff. It would have made the character a bit more consistent and maybe even give him some nice development.

Basically, I'd much rather have something with few well-defined details than something overloaded with random things pieced together just to make it feel more "complete".

I'm not suggesting anything complex here. In fact, it's very basic storytelling to contrast one scene with another. It's not even that difficult to make the details relevant. For example, you show one scene of May interacting with her friends in her home, then show another one interacting with her new friends. Doing so can highlight one or two things about her - maybe she's more energetic while travelling, but more relaxed at home.

It goes without saying that the details have to be defined and relevant. I'm not advocating we learn every meaningless thing about a character, or that they play up those details. But there are plenty of opportunities in the show to show us more.

And, frankly speaking, I don't see how Sophocles sulking will have any relevance in the future. Unless it will have a role where he is afraid to lose a friend in a wormhole and goes "Full Hero Mode" to go save said friend, that's it. If all, he would get over his crybaby status and show some guts, I suppose.

Without being able to predict what's to come, I think it's very much possible to make parts of Sophocles' character relevant later on.

He's afraid of the dark, so put him in dark places. He has a lot of insecurities, so put him in situations that expose those insecurities. All of a sudden those details become relevant.

I suppose, but don't completely forgo his actual role and goal in the process, though.

I wouldn't have a problem if we actually saw him working in achieving his dream, from time to time, and making plans to get a Z-Crystal, or going to some place to hone his skills, or battling. After all, he is a Pokémon Trainer, so he is expected to behave like a Pokémon Trainer true to his name. And yet, he has spent 99% of his time with silly stuff that has nothing to do with training. Heck, he isn't even doing much school-related stuff, which was one of the most hyped things of the saga. He surely won't get his diploma by goofing around all day.

So far, he has done very little to achieve his main goal or even to graduate, and that's simply unacceptable. There is more in life than just taking break after break after school, after all.

I still think the whole "Ash isn't doing any Pokemon training" thing is a myth. Recent episodes I saw showed Ash training with Kiawe to help Litten master Fire Fang, he's worked with Rockruff, he's battled Team Rocket and Tapu Koko, he's battled Lillie's butler, Gladion and than random trainer, he's done a trial, he's going to do another trial eventually, and he's caught three Pokemon.

So I don't see him bumming around doing nothing the way you do.

He's also been doing school-related stuff. This isn't a tradition pen and paper school. A lot of their activities are outdoors and practical - fishing, egg raising, Z-Move poses, going into a forest to catch a Pokemon, etc.
 
It's not about listing personality traits, but rather what we're shown of a character in different situations. SM's characters have a bit more to them because I don't just see them in action, I also see them in rest, in casual moments and amongst their own family. By seeing more aspects of their lives, I feel like I get to know them better than I did other characters.

I don't see them in action, I'm only seeing them in casual moments, and that's one of my main problems with the series. They live in a world with magical creatures so I don't think the show should revolve around basic activities. I'm okay with an episode that shows Ash going to a concert, I'm not okay with the whole of Sun & Moon being a series of random ordinary events as it is now.

Main characters interacting with their relatives is something every series has had. Johanna was super criticized when the Diamond & Pearl series was airing for how cold she was with her daughter. Last series Grace appeared in several episodes and we got a sense of how she treated her daughter before Serena's introduction to the series. We don't need 100+ episodes of characters staying at home to know how they interact with their family members.

All of what you're talking about was present in the past series. And I wouldn't even say that it was shown in a small amount because I think Johanna and Grace appeared enough. I know more about how these two characters interact with their daughters than I know about any of Ash's classmates and their relatives.

Taking your May example, yes we knew she liked travelling, and yes we knew she liked food, but these have little to do with her personality. "Likes travelling" isn't a personality trait. What was May's life like before she became a trainer? Did she have friends in Petalburg she hung out with? What was she like around the house? What did she do to relax/kill time? You might ask why any of that matters, but it's the mundane things like that that give you a more complete picture of a person. For example, a loner at home who lazed about all day and watched TV to pass the time gives a completely different impression to a social butterfly always helping around the house with a ton of different hobbies. You can then use this information to either reinforce or contrast something about a character, creating a stronger character as a result.

"Likes traveling" might not be a personality trait, but "adventurous" is. You were saying how characters in past series had their lives and personalities dominated by their goals, and I gave you an example of how we have knowledge on other aspects of May's life aside from her goal of becoming a Top Coordinator.

I have no way of knowing what May used to do before she started her journey, but that doesn't make her a less developed character compared to the SM cast. The writers explored May's character enough for we to picture what was her life like before she became a Coordinator. And if we move from May to Dawn, we know plenty about her home life, her friends Kenny and Leona, how she used to help her mom prepare Poffins, how she grew up inspired by her mom's achievements, and so many other aspects of her life that we learned along the way. And Dawn is the most active traveling companion ever, while Mallow could be replaced by a palm tree and the series wouldn't be affected.

I really don't see how the SM cast has more layers than Ash's former traveling companions.

Your Clemont/Sophocles comparison proves nothing. Firstly, you're taking a character barely 30 episodes old and comparing it to one that's had an entire season behind them, so one character has yet to have the opportunities to show more of themselves. Secondly, Sophocles has the least amount of focus thus far, and you've cherry picked him to prove your point without acknowledging the other characters. Thirdly, the recent episode about Sophocles showed us a lot about his character which you've ignored.

For what it's worth, I don't think Sophocles is a better character than Clemont. However, I do think there's more potential with Sophocles, because I've seen things about him that could be interesting when placed in certain scenarios.

Sophocles has had three episodes focusing on him, that's more than any of the other classmates. I've "cherry picked" Sophocles because he is similar to Clemont, that's all. The fact Clemont has an entire series behind him and is such an underdeveloped character is one more reason to believe Sophocles is doomed. Clemont also had that "potential" you're talking.

People in this fandom tend to mix up "expectation" and "potential." What you imagine might happen with Sophocles isn't "potential." Sophocles is a minor character that has no goal in life. He has as much potential to become a good character as a freshly open Word document has the potential to become a New York Times best selling novel. You're saying he has potential based on three episodes in which nothing remotely relevant happened. There isn't one single aspect of Sophocles that makes me look forward to seeing him in the show. That episode in which he moves a few houses down the street did absolutely nothing for him. We didn't see a new side of his personality, instead he was further portrayed as a small kid and cried like I accurately predicted would happen in the preview thread.

I wouldn't go say that they've ruined Trials either. I don't like potentially eliminating the Trial Captains from the concept and the battles against the Yungoos and Gumshoos were a bit too short, but I'd want to see how they handle at least a couple more Trials before declaring that the anime has ruined them.

The one Trial Captain from Melemele Island, Ilima, was completely ignored during the Verdant Cavern trial. Akala Island has three Captains, all of them are currently attending the Pokémon School together with Ash. What are your expectations for future trials?

The writers could easily introduce Ilima and they chose not to. I don't think they will go to the trouble of promoting Ash's classmates to Trial Captains when Ilima was at their disposal and they decided to not introduce him. They will probably just show Ash challenging the Totem Pokémon. And if the first trial is anything to go by, the battle will completely ignore how trials work in the games.

Players of Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon send one Pokémon against the Totem Pokémon and its ally. This puts the player at a disadvantage (one vs. two) and the ally Pokémon will heal the Totem, change the weather for its benefit, and so forth. The situation was reversed in the anime, the allies get a separate battle and Ash uses two Pokémon against the Totem. So in essence the writers have removed the Captains and the fun and challenging part of the SOS Battles from the games. Trials are ruined.
 
I don't see them in action, I'm only seeing them in casual moments, and that's one of my main problems with the series. They live in a world with magical creatures so I don't think the show should revolve around basic activities. I'm okay with an episode that shows Ash going to a concert, I'm not okay with the whole of Sun & Moon being a series of random ordinary events as it is now.

Usually I would list all the moments the characters were, in fact, in action but I won't here because clearly it's not going to change that perception. We can go back and forth about how much is enough but this idea that there is none or so little it's barely worth acknowledging is becoming ridiculous.

Main characters interacting with their relatives is something every series has had. Johanna was super criticized when the Diamond & Pearl series was airing for how cold she was with her daughter. Last series Grace appeared in several episodes and we got a sense of how she treated her daughter before Serena's introduction to the series. We don't need 100+ episodes of characters staying at home to know how they interact with their family members.

I didn't say there should 100+ episodes of character staying at home. Nor did I say that there wasn't any examples of it in previous seasons. It's good that DP had that. However, as far as personal taste goes, I like seeing families interact with each other and would welcome more of it. I'd like to see more family history. I would want to know, say, if Johanna ever treated her daughter differently before Dawn decided to be a coordinator. I acknowledge that Sun/Moon has yet to in depth on this either, but I'm not opposed to the idea.

"Likes traveling" might not be a personality trait, but "adventurous" is. You were saying how characters in past series had their lives and personalities dominated by their goals, and I gave you an example of how we have knowledge on other aspects of May's life aside from her goal of becoming a Top Coordinator.

Yes you did, and it's not a great example. May's "life" outside of Pokemon amounts to picking up a guide book and occasionally convincing the group to visit a restaurant. That barely scratches the surface of an "interest". As I said earlier, I'm not looking for huge exposition dumps here on every aspect of her life, just a bit more depth. More showing that she is a passionate traveller.

I'll give an example. In the very first episode, May states that she dislikes Pokemon, but she loves travelling. Her getting Torchic was an excuse to travel the world. That would imply, then, that her family was either against the idea or she simply never told them. Wouldn't they be suspicious if May, who didn't like Pokemon, suddenly decided to go on a Pokemon journey?

That's the sort of thing I find interesting. But the show doesn't explore these areas because it's so focused on May's goal, even though you can tie the two together.

I have no way of knowing what May used to do before she started her journey, but that doesn't make her a less developed character compared to the SM cast. The writers explored May's character enough for we to picture what was her life like before she became a Coordinator. And if we move from May to Dawn, we know plenty about her home life, her friends Kenny and Leona, how she used to help her mom prepare Poffins, how she grew up inspired by her mom's achievements, and so many other aspects of her life that we learned along the way. And Dawn is the most active traveling companion ever, while Mallow could be replaced by a palm tree and the series wouldn't be affected.

I really don't see how the SM cast has more layers than Ash's former traveling companions.

Again, comparing characters that have been and gone to new characters isn't exactly fair. My comment about the layers was more about how I thought the SM's cast had something more to them than Ash's other companions after the same amount of episodes. I think they've done well to show us as much as they have given the size of the cast - including Team Rocket, all the new support characters like Kukui, and all the new Pokemon.

People in this fandom tend to mix up "expectation" and "potential." What you imagine might happen with Sophocles isn't "potential." Sophocles is a minor character that has no goal in life. He has as much potential to become a good character as a freshly open Word document has the potential to become a New York Times best selling novel. You're saying he has potential based on three episodes in which nothing remotely relevant happened. There isn't one single aspect of Sophocles that makes me look forward to seeing him in the show. That episode in which he moves a few houses down the street did absolutely nothing for him. We didn't see a new side of his personality, instead he was further portrayed as a small kid and cried like I accurately predicted would happen in the preview thread.

Where am I confusing "potential" for "expectation"? Did I lay out what my expectations for the character were?

Every character has potential. It comes down to what you do with them. When I look at Sophocles I see a character with lots of weaknesses and insecurities, who could potentially undergo an interesting character arc. That's all it is. The recent episode reinforced some of his character in a lower stake environment, so imagine this character in a higher stakes situation. I'm thinking about how the character could react when under pressure, how he reacts when people need to rely on him, as so on.

They may or may not do anything with him, but that doesn't mean the potential doesn't exist.
 
The one Trial Captain from Melemele Island, Ilima, was completely ignored during the Verdant Cavern trial. Akala Island has three Captains, all of them are currently attending the Pokémon School together with Ash. What are your expectations for future trials?

The writers could easily introduce Ilima and they chose not to. I don't think they will go to the trouble of promoting Ash's classmates to Trial Captains when Ilima was at their disposal and they decided to not introduce him. They will probably just show Ash challenging the Totem Pokémon. And if the first trial is anything to go by, the battle will completely ignore how trials work in the games.

Players of Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon send one Pokémon against the Totem Pokémon and its ally. This puts the player at a disadvantage (one vs. two) and the ally Pokémon will heal the Totem, change the weather for its benefit, and so forth. The situation was reversed in the anime, the allies get a separate battle and Ash uses two Pokémon against the Totem. So in essence the writers have removed the Captains and the fun and challenging part of the SOS Battles from the games. Trials are ruined.

I'd still kind of hope that they'll include the Trial Captains in the remaining trials despite eliminating Ilima in the first one. I may just be too hopeful about that, but I just like the idea of Ash's friends being involved in the Trials since that could be interesting. They may not do that, especially when they didn't include Ilima at all like you mentioned, but I'd hope that they'd do something with the concept. I'm not sure what my more reasonable expectations for future trials are beyond that.

I do like how Trials work in the game for the same reasons. That made some of them surprisingly challenging and the two on one format was refreshing too. While it's a shame that the anime went the opposite route in that regard, I probably would have been okay with that if the battles were better. The battles weren't bad, but just too short and Ash's sudden motivation to take part in the first Trial really didn't help. I can understand being upset over how the first Trial went and all, but I just would rather see how they handle at least a couple more Trials before declaring that the anime has ruined them.
 
Personally I hope Ash's friend's take part in the trial, the thought came to me after seeing how interested Lana was in the Water Z-Move in episode 25 and how I think that the only possible water types Ash could get are better suited for other people. Personally I would prefer that to something like contests or performances being made for them.

I must also agree that the Alolan companions felt more fleshed out then other companions did before a this point and I agree that its probably because we get to see more of their life than we do with other. I must also agree that the battles so far have been less exiting than other series, but what battles we do have are still good, Totem Gumshoos, Hala, Magmar, Totem Raticate, and Gladion may have not lasted as long as other series battles but they were still fun to watch while they happened.
 
Personally, I'd love to watch more episodes focusing on Ash's companion who are the best group in this Anime I've ever seen (group- 5 persons). I hope Mallow, Lillie and others will get a full episode just like Sophocles did :D
 
Personally, I'm kinda in the middle right now. The characters(Besides Rotom-Dex) are great and the art style is very colorful. The emphasis on characters is a very welcome change also. I do like that this anime doesn't shy away also from topics such as death.

Honestly though, I miss the the traveling, and the humor just doesn't do it for me. The reliance on slapstick and over the top facial expressions just doesn't do it for me. Its honestly very unappealing to look at sometimes, especially some of the ones I've seen from Kiawe. It feels so out of place in Pokemon. I feel like its moving at a very slow pace also, considering we're still on Melemele Island at this point. Plus, I feel like there's been very few battles at this point. Even if there is, they're very quick or they're interrupted by the TRio.

They have a great oppritunity though to do great things, considering we know Gladion will kinda be like a rival for Ash, and we know characters like Lusamine are there.
 
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I'm simply not a fan of this light-hearted, comedy filled series route they've taken with SM. The content presented is simply not my cup of tea.

I've stopped watching weekly and am just watching sporadically now and basically awaiting the next series to arrive. Hopefully SM is a one-off style change and for the next series they'll revert the art style to the more serious XY-styled one and go back to focusing on action, battles, rivals and training. That's what I'm watching Pokemon for.
 
Actually battles is absolutely not my cup of tea so I'm really glad about SM but of course I appreciate your opinions.
@Kairyu
I did the same but during XY. SM is the first series since 2010 I can watch without getting bored.
I think it's important for writers to make all fans happy- it's all about balance.
 
But DP was more battle oriented than BW/XY.
Of course you're right but:
1. Fact battles is not my cup of tea doesn't mean I don't like them at all
2. I used to like DP because of characters, plot, memories and atmosphere- for me, it is third and last part of ,,original" story.
3. BW is simply weird- I'm not sure what to say about it. XY is too serious and dramatic. For me, main problem is lack of funny moments.
 
I'm simply not a fan of this light-hearted, comedy filled series route they've taken with SM. The content presented is simply not my cup of tea.

I've stopped watching weekly and am just watching sporadically now and basically awaiting the next series to arrive. Hopefully SM is a one-off style change and for the next series they'll revert the art style to the more serious XY-styled one and go back to focusing on action, battles, rivals and training. That's what I'm watching Pokemon for.
Watch it go back to being that next region, then the next region will have comedy, then the next is serious, the next comedy and so on and so fourth.
 
Well this thread has certainly exploded in the near week I've been gone!

I've said it a bunch before: I can understand why some people aren't big on SM, why they feel it's too slow or boring, why they feel like the characters aren't progressing, that there aren't enough battles, etc etc. All are personal preference things, so of course not everyone is going to be into this series, especially since this is a major deviation from the series' usual formula.

I personally, however, was so sick of the usual formula. For example, I'm not the biggest fan of battles (I actually always dreaded gym episodes because I just found them so boring). I don't hate them or anything like that (wouldn't really make sense to watch this show if I did) but I personally like that in SM, I don't feel like I'm watching 10-15 minutes of straight battling every other episode. People who like that obviously aren't going to be into SM. Understandable, and of course I can respect that.

But to me, world building is one of my absolute favorite aspects of any show. I find it so fascinating, and SM is doing such a fantastic job of that. I feel like we know so much about Alola and learn more with each episode. That's part of why I like the slower pace and the more easy going episodes. I don't need every single character to have a very specific goal spelled out for me to enjoy them. It sometimes gets to the point, especially with this anime, where I feel like I'm being force fed all of this information and I can barely enjoy the show because I'm constantly being reminded "hey, don't forget this is ABC's goal!" or "ABC still has this many challenges left until they reach their goal!" I want to use a little bit of my own imagination while watching the show. I enjoy the course being taken with the SM classmates because I feel like I can do that. They each have defined interests and personalities, but there is no hard line of "this is what they are aiming for, this is it, this is the goal." I feel like the lack of that aspect comes with more freedom for the characters.

In my own opinion, XY was one of the worst series to come out of the anime because it pretty much contained everything I don't like in a series. I know that's a very minor opinion, and most don't agree with it, which again is fine. I of course respect everyone's opinions on other sagas so long as they aren't using them solely to bash SM. But to me, XY is something I won't repeat watching because I didn't enjoy it the first time. SM is the kind of series that I know I'll be able to watch for years to come. I've already watched several episodes multiple times because I liked them so much. I'm really enjoying the fact that I have a saga right now that I can be as passionate about and as invested in as the fans who loved XY are.
 
Now that this anime is pass 25 episodes, I can make a clear evaluation of how it is doing so far.
For me, it's kinda of a rough ride. Certain episodes were actually good; I liked the baseball one aired a few days ago and the episode where Shiron hatched was pretty good, too. However, there are also one's that were pretty lackluster. For example, I didn't like the Dugtrio filler episode, I felt like it was just the usual "Team Rocket shenanigans" that I've grown tired of. In fact most episodes I dislike have the usual Team Rocket shenanigan in it, and after over 11 years watching this it's getting really repetitive and boring (though what else can TR do? It's what they do). I feel like TR is better than their XY counterparts, mainly because of the slapstick comedy
The slapstick comedy is probably one of the better parts of this anime. I've seen so much priceless facial expressions that actually work really fine. I don't think they overdo them too much, either; when things are serious it's serious.
Lillie's fear of touching Pokemon is pretty much gone after 15 episodes, and seeing such a rushed character development kinda bothers me; I prefer ones like Serena, May, pretty much most past female companions of Ash, where character development is gradual but still apparent. The other characters, besides Mallow and (in a way) Kiawe, are really shallow in their personality and don't have much episodes focused on them. Sophocles, especially, he's a great character and all but there's not even a bit in character development, literally countering Lillie's development.
The pacing of the anime is fine. Ash did complete the island trial on Melemele already, and, in the Gladion episode, is hinted to start the Akala ones. It's good that they did not rush Ash completing trials, or slow them down substantially so that Ash beats one trial a season (at least from what I can tell now). However, Ash's school experience is still all over the place - this was the reason he stayed in Alola, to graduate from the school there. All we saw Ash and his classmates doing are 1. battle 2. go on adventures and 3. have fun. Barely a single episode focused on in-class shenanigans; judging by what happened in the 2nd episode a lot of stuff happens.
The music irks me, because there is a lot of recycled ones. I remember hearing the XY hall of fame and Route 4 many times, and the only other 3 I have heard that were Alola related were the Trainer, wild pokemon battle theme, and Alola's theme, all which I think are ok compared to the other soundtracks Alola has to offer
Overall, the first 25 episodes were a 7.8 7/10. There is so much that SM already has to offer, but there's also a lot that they can improve on.
 
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