What Tier will they be in? #2

[Mr.Munchlax]

Today, it is Charizard, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Infernape,and Enbuu. Also, a revote on Garchomp because its votes for OU and U were tied.

Charizard-OU Stealth Rock is no longer a TM as of Gen V. 'nuff said.
Blaziken-OU
Typhlosion-Debating between OU and BL. Probably BL.
Infernape-OU
Enbuu-OU
Garchomp-U

Last time's results:
Doryuzzu=U
Dragonite=OU
Salamence-OU

 

[Angad]

Today, it is Charizard, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Infernape,and Enbuu. Also, a revote on Garchomp because its votes for OU and U were tied.

Charizard-OU Stealth Rock is no longer a TM as of Gen V. 'nuff said.
Blaziken-OU
Typhlosion-Debating between OU and BL. Probably BL.
Infernape-OU
Enbuu-OU
Garchomp-U

Last time's results:
Doryuzzu=U
Dragonite=OU
Salamence-OU

Have you actually played the Gen 5 Metagame? Blaziken is probably going to be OU, but Infernape will be UU (BL when it can legally have T. Punch and Iron Fist), Enbuuo is going to be NU, because it's outclassed by the other two except in Trick Room and maybe Doubles. Typhlosion won't be entirely outclassed by Houndoom anymore, now that it's got Flash Fire, so it might be UU, and Garchomp, I'm undecided on, but leaning toward ubers.

 

[Mr.Munchlax]

Have you actually played the Gen 5 Metagame? Blaziken is probably going to be OU, but Infernape will be UU (BL when it can legally have T. Punch and Iron Fist), Enbuuo is going to be NU, because it's outclassed by the other two except in Trick Room and maybe Doubles. Typhlosion won't be entirely outclassed by Houndoom anymore, now that it's got Flash Fire, so it might be UU, and Garchomp, I'm undecided on, but leaning toward ubers.

I'm doing this purely on how good I think that they are.

 

[Aco]

Charizard will still get destroyred by the pokemon in this generation that know stealth rock, ya know.

 

[SharKing]

Blaziken: OU

Last gen, it was sent to UU because even though it had really nice offensive stats (120/110), its Speed just wasn't enough to compete in OU without a Choice Scarf. (Of course, it kept its position as a top UU the whole generation.) But now, Black and White gives it a couple of new tools to sock it to that ripoff, Infernape. The most notable? Speed Boost. Yep, every turn, it'll just get faster and faster. It can spam Protect, or it can force a switch to get a Swords Dance AND a Speed Boost. The other major tool is Hi Jump Kick, which got raised to a rather ridiculous base power of 130; 195, factoring in STAB! With both tools, Blaziken is obviously too strong for UU, and it puts up a fierce fight in OU now. However, let's not forget that it does have flaws. A couple of its flaws rest in its prized Hi Jump Kick; if you predict it and switch in a Ghost-type, it severely injures itself, taking damage equal to half its max HP. If it misses (which is why some people run Wide Lens), it injures itself. If you use Protect, it injures itself. That would really kill its bulk, especially if it has Life Orb, opening it up to be finished by priority. Still, despite these flaws, Blaziken will undoubtedly be a premier physical sweeper in OU this gen.

 

[League]

Typhlosion rocks with a Scarf, and more so now with an immunity and SR being less spread. (One thing gets me though: are all pokemon supposed to be bred and/or captured this gen? Cause obviously pokemon transferred over from the 4th Gen would still get their SR access. And there is no Typhlosion to be had this gen [yet], as far as I know anyway...)

Typhlosion could go BL, though I've ran it in OU in Gen 4 at some point or another. Enbuoh will be UU, stats are oddly (terribly?) placed, apparently only with Reckless in mind. Blaziken is OU obviously; Infernape, eh, BL.

 

[sqwat500]

Charizard will still get destroyred by the pokemon in this generation that know stealth rock, ya know.

Have you played 5th gen yet? SR is verry uncommon

I feel chrizard will return to its glory of BL, Solar power makes Him hit like a truck

Pigboss-NU, i feel he will fill up an entei like nich in NU

Blazeaken-OU, speed bost is steller

Infernape-BL, it is more of a threat from the get-go then blazeaken, but after a few turns of setup, blazeaken is the far superior option

Typhlosion-UU, but im not verry experienced with this guy

 

[coolking503]

Charizard-UU - Yeah, SR is less common but it still we be everywhere, at least until most DW abilities are released (incompatible w/ SR). Charizard Will start out NU but once solar power and drought 9tails are released it will be UU and possibly BL, depending on howmany bulky waters are OU (alot is my guess)
Blaziken-OU - Speed boost=win
Typhlosion- NU - Typhlosion's flash fire boost=Charizard solar power boost, except that Thyphlosion has to switch into a fire type move to get the boost. Also, for it to be semi-viable it needs to be on the same team as ninetails, which means you have two pure fire types on one team. there are just too many better fire types in UU.
Infernape-UU - Its just outclassed by Emboar (to an extent) and Blaziken (That was fun saying). The metagame in UU will end up alot like current UU where it is FWG core, and fire types rain supreme, forcing there to be many defensive water types )milotic, Slowbro/king, etc. Also, the fact that both Blissey and Chansey could be Ou means that wall breakers aren't needed as much in UU.
Enbuu- I feel really stupid for not catching on to the pattern. Im pretty sure its called emboar though. Whatever. UU. Maybe NU, or maybe it will be like gen4 espeon, broken in NU and not good enough for UU. There are just too many fire types.
Garchomp- toss up. (we need a coin flip smiley) I think it will be voted Uber at the very end up the metagame, once all the other strong threats are eliminated.

 

[League]

Have you played 5th gen yet? SR is verry uncommon

I feel chrizard will return to its glory of BL, Solar power makes Him hit like a truck

Pigboss-NU, i feel he will fill up an entei like nich in NU

Blazeaken-OU, speed bost is steller

Infernape-BL, it is more of a threat from the get-go then blazeaken, but after a few turns of setup, blazeaken is the far superior option

Typhlosion-UU, but im not verry experienced with this guy

I'd up all those 1 (in tier) except Blaziken (who can't feasibly go up) and Infernape.

I have had a change of heart with Enbuoh, who has fantastic coverage: I guess he can somewhat be considered to have "bulk," due to his HP. He can also be incredibly decent on TR teams, with Hammer Arm slowing him and the -Speed nature working to his benefit. I might even put Enbuoh into BL, somewhat comfortably; and, at a stretch, well, into OU.

 

[SharKing]

^ Then you clearly don't have a full understanding of the tiering. Enbuoh's big HP is undermined by its crap defenses and heavy reliance on recoil moves. It'll never rise above NU, ever. Trick Room viability didn't save Clamperl last gen. If Enbuoh were to even set foot in OU, it would be eaten alive by all the bulky Waters and strong Earthquakes.

 

[F-22]

I highly doubt Emboar will end up in NU. 110/65/65 is hardly "crap" because it will survive something; he is primarily let down by low speed. He also has a secret weapon in its arsenal that will set him apart from the pack: did you guys know that he gets Boiling Water to set itself apart from the rest of the pack? There will be plenty of things afraid to switch into him because of it. His movepool is hella better than Charizard, Entei and Typhlosion. It's a damn shame he gets no punch moves or priority though. At the very least, he will most likely end up mid-tier UU. It's a shame people just trash on Emboar; yes, it is flawed, but I find it difficult to see him out of the spotlight in some metagame.

 

[Badal]

Question
Is this tier voting thing official for bmgf or is it just someone speculating?

 

[Angad]

Question
Is this tier voting thing official for bmgf or is it just someone speculating?

Speculation,

I highly doubt Emboar will end up in NU. 110/65/65 is hardly "crap" because it will survive something; he is primarily let down by low speed. He also has a secret weapon in its arsenal that will set him apart from the pack: did you guys know that he gets Boiling Water to set itself apart from the rest of the pack? There will be plenty of things afraid to switch into him because of it. His movepool is hella better than Charizard, Entei and Typhlosion. It's a damn shame he gets no punch moves or priority though. At the very least, he will most likely end up mid-tier UU. It's a shame people just trash on Emboar; yes, it is flawed, but I find it difficult to see him out of the spotlight in some metagame.

I knew that, but forgot. Well, remembering that now, he could easily be UU. He won't be used on HO teams, though, too slow. Maybe a Double Dragon Technique could be done with him and Infernape. I'd like to see that.

 

[F-22]

We're just speculating.

 

[League]

^ Then you clearly don't have a full understanding of the tiering. Enbuoh's big HP is undermined by its crap defenses and heavy reliance on recoil moves. It'll never rise above NU, ever. Trick Room viability didn't save Clamperl last gen. If Enbuoh were to even set foot in OU, it would be eaten alive by all the bulky Waters and strong Earthquakes.

Read my first post in this thread: it is unedited, and goes along rather the same lines, so I at least made the same considerations. (Although, I'm of the mind that Enbuoh's HP is high with Reckless in mind: its high HP would only be undermined by the many recoil moves if its high HP was there for the purpose of walling. Just clearing the [obvious] distinction. :sweatlol

I hate Enbuoh's stat distribution (and Enbuoh for that matter, perhaps) anyway. To invest in speed (as a general sweeper generally should), it must either drop a stat it may use (its defenses), or a relatively good and much higher base stat (its special attack or attack) if you invest in it a nature; and if you invest in its speed some EVs (or a nature, for that matter), its speed still ends up being quite lacking (and speed is an all-or-nothing game). So ultimately, I came to the conclusion that investment in its speed is flat terrible.

Investing against its speed, and against speed in general, I find to be the best thing for Enbuoh personally. I never implied that this strat is OU worthy: only that Enbuoh could make it in OU on a few limited teams. I left Enbuoh's placing in doubt, somewhere between UU and OU. Enbuoh has two clear competitors with relatively the same types and moves and stat totals: obviously, playing Enbuoh as one of its rivals when it doesn't do the function of either as strongly will result in it seeing lower usage--such is why you don't use a Chansey (generally--Evolution Stone) instead of a Blissey.

I highly doubt Emboar will end up in NU. 110/65/65 is hardly "crap" because it will survive something; he is primarily let down by low speed. He also has a secret weapon in its arsenal that will set him apart from the pack: did you guys know that he gets Boiling Water to set itself apart from the rest of the pack? There will be plenty of things afraid to switch into him because of it. His movepool is hella better than Charizard, Entei and Typhlosion. It's a damn shame he gets no punch moves or priority though. At the very least, he will most likely end up mid-tier UU. It's a shame people just trash on Emboar; yes, it is flawed, but I find it difficult to see him out of the spotlight in some metagame.

Enbuoh's coverage is enviable. It certainly makes for the easiest and fastest (in terms of offensive selection/ingame battle-pawning) Black/White ingame starter.

Most bulky waters fear at least one of its potential moves, as do many of its counters. And Boiling Water poses risk to those who might switch in as well.

Blaziken was roughly in a two-wolf pack last gen, and its usage and tiering were low with little to separate it from being an inferior Infernape. Obviously, Speed Boost now separates it from the pack anon. Yada yada yada: Enbuoh is only among these wolves because it shares the typing and high offensive stats. There is already enough to distinguish it from the other two.

 

[Angad]

Read my first post in this thread: it is unedited, and goes along rather the same lines, so I at least made the same considerations. (Although, I'm of the mind that Enbuoh's HP is high with Reckless in mind: its high HP would only be undermined by the many recoil moves if its high HP was there for the purpose of walling. Just clearing the [obvious] distinction. :sweatlol

I hate Enbuoh's stat distribution (and Enbuoh for that matter, perhaps) anyway. To invest in speed (as a general sweeper generally should), it must either drop a stat it may use (its defenses), or a relatively good and much higher base stat (its special attack or attack) if you invest in it a nature; and if you invest in its speed some EVs (or a nature, for that matter), its speed still ends up being quite lacking (and speed is an all-or-nothing game). So ultimately, I came to the conclusion that investment in its speed is flat terrible.

Investing against its speed, and against speed in general, I find to be the best thing for Enbuoh personally. I never implied that this strat is OU worthy: only that Enbuoh could make it in OU on a few limited teams. I left Enbuoh's placing in doubt, somewhere between UU and OU. Enbuoh has two clear competitors with relatively the same types and moves and stat totals: obviously, playing Enbuoh as one of its rivals when it doesn't do the function of either as strongly will result in it seeing lower usage--such is why you don't use a Chansey (generally--Evolution Stone) instead of a Blissey.Enbuoh's coverage is enviable. It certainly makes for the easiest and fastest (in terms of offensive selection/ingame battle-pawning) Black/White ingame starter.

Most bulky waters fear at least one of its potential moves, as do many of its counters. And Boiling Water poses risk to those who might switch in as well.

Blaziken was roughly in a two-wolf pack last gen, and its usage and tiering were low with little to separate it from being an inferior Infernape. Obviously, Speed Boost now separates it from the pack anon. Yada yada yada: Enbuoh is only among these wolves because it shares the typing and high offensive stats. There is already enough to distinguish it from the other two.

Maybe I was too quick to judge, it seems a lot like Crimgan is to the other Dragons, at first, it may look out classes, but it's got enough to distinguish itself and have its uses. Also, the starter is built for doubles. Looking at it's movepool, I'd think a Wild Volt/ HP Ice Combo would be better on it than just boiling water.

 

[Thundagere]

Oh, this is fun.

BTW, I remember Coolking made Project Bulbagarden Tiers a while back. Do we want to maybe use this like that? Right now, we can make a spreadsheet with what we think each pokemon should be and why. It'd stop Smogon from monopolizing the tiers, anyway. Just a thought. Note that if we do that we definitely need to have stuff like reasons and movesets, and we need to start soon.

So, Blaziken. He's gonna definitely be OU. I think I'll use him actually, since as a late game sweeper, after you eliminate your opponent's Ghost types, he can probably rip through what's left of a team--I've used Infernape similarely, but if you force a switch and SD, Blaze won't be scared off by Starmie the way Infernape sometimes is.

Garchomp is probably going to be OU. His stats are simply too high for UU, and though he might work in BL, SD Garchomp is still overpowering.

Typhlosion is UU material. He gets FLash Fire to set up, but that's not really enough. He has a powerful Eruption, but he just doesn't cut the OU mark. Luckily now, he's up to par with his nemesis Houndoom.

Charizard: FINALLY!!! OU!!! No more Stealth Rock TM! Solar Power! He's definitely destruction material. It was easy to do a ton of damage with Stealth Rock, now he's right up there!

Infernape: I like Infernape, simply because he was my first ever pokemon, but he's outclassed by Blaziken. Blaziken is now faster after one turn. Blaze can't really set up Special Attacking Nasty Plot like Ape though, so even though it has great Special Attacking stats, Infernape still might have a niche. Therefore, BL.

Enbuoh: That's funny! GOod one, good one...oh, you were serious? Enbuoh doesn't cut it. He has some nice moves, but nothing huge. His Reckless ability could be good with Flare Blitz and Head Smash, he has pretty good HP to go with it, but...he'd die fast still. I'm going with NU/UU, but with some othe roptions he could make it to BL...if the metagame drastically changed.

 

[Sanic Hegehog]

Charizard: FINALLY!!! OU!!! No more Stealth Rock TM! Solar Power! He's definitely destruction material. It was easy to do a ton of damage with Stealth Rock, now he's right up there!

Not to destroy your fanboyisms or anything, but Charizard is still really flawed. For one, just because there is no Stealth Rock TM doesn't mean the move doesn't exist; its still pretty well distributed by level up and Breeding, and there always the factor of bringing a Gen IV Monster into Black/White. From what I seen Stealth rocks is still used on many Pokemon and is still one of the centers similar to the Gen IV metagame.

And also, Solar Power sounds really cool at first, but keep in mind that you practically need Drought Ninetales (Two Fire types is iffy at best) and something to kill off the likes of Drizzle Politoad, Tyranitar/Hippowdon, and (a lesser extent) Abomasnow.

And lastly, its typing gives it problems with switching into stuff (though a Ground immunity and 4x resistence to bug helps).

 

[g3rgni]

I definitely agree with Dr. Alpha about Charizard. Despite a notable increase in power, it still needs a ridiculous amount of team support to be effective. It is also severely outclassed in OU by Ulgamoth, a more durable and potentially more powerful fire-type special sweeper. I predict that Charizard will most likely be UU if they decide to allow Drought Vulpix in the tier. Otherwise, it will be back to NU once again.

 

[Thundagere]

Not to destroy your fanboyisms or anything, but Charizard is still really flawed. For one, just because there is no Stealth Rock TM doesn't mean the move doesn't exist; its still pretty well distributed by level up and Breeding, and there always the factor of bringing a Gen IV Monster into Black/White. From what I seen Stealth rocks is still used on many Pokemon and is still one of the centers similar to the Gen IV metagame.

And also, Solar Power sounds really cool at first, but keep in mind that you practically need Drought Ninetales (Two Fire types is iffy at best) and something to kill off the likes of Drizzle Politoad, Tyranitar/Hippowdon, and (a lesser extent) Abomasnow.

And lastly, its typing gives it problems with switching into stuff (though a Ground immunity and 4x resistence to bug helps).

I overreacted, I know. Though it does need Drought Ninetales, proper team support can let it sweep a team, I've done it many times in the past in Standard metagame. Even with Stealth Rock regardless it can still hit the opponent hard, especially in a BP team. Having 50% health doesn't make a dfference to 100% if you hit the opponent before they can hit you .
Oh, and fyi, for those Pokes you said would be a problem, Sceptile can counter all of them (he comes to mind because I"ve used him often, but theere are probably others). My point is team options are crucial.
So, let me rephrase, Charizard could be OU later in the metagame depending on the usage of Drought Ninetales, team support, etc., etc. More likely BL at best now that i think about it, but he is neglected.
One point I want to make (not specifically about this but in general)-- OU=/= better than UU always. It all depends on the team. I've used Weezing in OU to great success, even more so that Skarmory.
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot about Ulgamoth . Make that UU.
And like you said, it will be NU if Drought Ninetales is OU. Pity...of course, Zard makes a decent Physical attacker, but still outclassed by others. Only thing I se that sets him apart is Belly Drum, but with Stealth Rock that's just nasty. Of course, if you based a team around that...well, I'm rambling now.