What's your opinion on the XY/XYZ saga?

[noworry]

Personally I don't understand why people say XY is so serious, it was no more serious than DP was. It's almost like people think the Team Flare arc or Ash/Greninja represents all of XY, but XY was 143 episodes and those parts were only in the later half of the series. The shows original humor largely died down by late AG anyway (AG had similar type of humor to the OS), and it was basically the same as any other series pre-SM.

I guess it is the contrast between BW and XY. I don't have anything against BW, but I do remember feeling like Ash had taken a few steps back. DP was pretty serious too (or as serious as you can get for a Pokémon anime), but I think XY got more attention for it, maybe.

 

[NinjutsuSen]

DP is superior but I think XY is tied with AG on second place. It was a step in the right direction after how horrible BW was. It still had flaws, but every series including DP had at least some.

 

[ii kanji]

The only thing that ever threatens to ruin the Pokemon community is the small minority of fans stirring shit. Isn't it amazing that over 20 years the anime has given us such a wide variety of work to look back on and enjoy? I think it's a great blessing to be part of a community where all kinds of people like all kinds of different aspects of the franchise.

I really enjoyed XY during its run and a number of its episodes have made my 'watch forever' list. I also am really enjoying SM. I'm sure a lot of people think the reasons I have for liking any given Pokeani episode are dumb - pretty pictures, stirring music, bad jokes, heart-warming character moments - just like I do theirs (battles? Pfft, please). It's sad to think that people don't want to post their opinions in case of backlash though. I'm sure we all, me included, can do better at not antagonising one another.

[/sermon]

 

[SammyW27]

And another thing: if XY was too shounen, then so was DP.

but every series including DP had at least some.

Hey, nothing's perfect.

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

And another thing: if XY was too shounen, then so was DP.

Hunter J approves.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Personally I don't understand why people say XY is so serious, it was no more serious than DP was. It's almost like people think the Team Flare arc or Ash/Greninja represents all of XY, but XY was 143 episodes and those parts were only in the later half of the series. The shows original humor largely died down by late AG anyway (AG had similar type of humor to the OS), and it was basically the same as any other series pre-SM.

I think that is part of the reason why people think XY was so serious or more action packed than usual. The last few months of the series were devoted to Ash mastering Ash-Greninja, the Kalos League, Team Flare and the aftermath. There was hype for the series before the XYZ portion, but those last couple of arcs really increased the hype quite a bit. Those arcs overshadowed a lot of what had come before during the series, so it's not too surprising why people think that XY was overall more serious or action packed than other Pokemon series.

Coming after BW probably was a big factor too. Admittedly, I don't think that BW is as bad upon rewatching it. It's still my least favorite series, but it was more entertaining to watch through than I expected. I can see why it was so poorly received among fans at the time, especially when a lot of the big problems I had with the series are still there when I saw it again. A series where Ash is more competent, has better battles, a better main cast and an intense confrontation with the evil team would sound appealing to a lot of fans.

I said before that I don't think that XY lived up to its hype, but I think a more accurate way to put that is that I had a few too many problems with the series to fully get behind the hype. Aspects like Ash's poorly handled Kalos team, mainly with Goodra and Noviern's storylines, not getting rivals until pretty late in the series, Alain being ridiculously overpowered and Serena's Showcases really brought down the series for me. I'm not even sure if Ash winning the Kalos League would have made it a good League arc. The battles weren't bad, but there were some elements to both Ash vs. Sawyer and Ash vs. Alain, aside from its conclusion, that brought them down for me. It is still a really good series. If I had fewer problems with it or stuff like Ash's Kalos team or Serena's Showcases didn't bother me as much, I might have been able to get with the hype a bit more. Currently, I'd say that XY is my third favorite series, although rewatching AG again one of these days might make me change my mind about that. I like AG a lot, but some aspects of it haven't aged well, mainly May's Contests and especially the Battle Frontier arc.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

What was the point of Greninja having all that focus if it was going to be released? The answer is I'm still mad.

Best fight choreography in the series still baffled by how anyone could think the Kahuna Battles' are okay given what came before.

 

[Insanish Danish]

Ultimately the XY series wound up probably being my least favorite, for a multitude of reasons. I enjoyed it in the beginning, but it got dull really quickly. Ash was tremendously boring, Serena started out good but then also got tremendously boring (although I know most people feel it's the opposite), Team Rocket was just meh, the humor was barely there...idk, it just bored me. I also never like the really battle-heavy sagas, which plays a big factor.

It wasn't all bad, though. I liked Clemont and I loved Bonnie; she was precious, and she and Dedenne were an adorable duo. I also liked some of the side characters like Shauna. Overall, though, I wasn't a fan. It was too stiff, too serious, and maybe other people in the fandom prefer the show that way, but it didn't do it for me.

 

[Daenerys]

I loathe it because it had flaws coming out the wazoo including (but not limited to): Serena being shipping fodder most of the time and not discovering her goal until 40 episodes into the saga, Clemont only having real relevance around the time he fought Ash at the Lumiose Gym and then almost never again, Bonnie just being there, TR being treated like crap, unfinished subplots like Malamar's, skipped game characters like Drasna, the Chatelaines and Emma, Greninja being shoved down our throats for a whole effing year, Ash's team in general and the two releases, Alain's Gary Stu-ness, an awful League that was essentially just Ash vs Sawyer and Alain. And 100 other things, yet fans ignore the trash because "AsH wAs CoMpeTeNt!" and "10 out of 10 animation".

 

[yab]

What was the point of Greninja having all that focus if it was going to be released? The answer is I'm still mad.

How was Greninja released? It left at the end of the series like all of Ash's older pokemon do, and Ash still owns its pokeball as seen in the first SM episode and they have the connection. If the writers want to bring it back like Charizard one day they will, and it's popularity ensures it eventually.

 

[Rockapheller]

I promised myself to not have any interaction with this provocative thread which is later "softened" by admins, but just sigh.

What was the point of Greninja having all that focus if it was going to be released? The answer is I'm still mad.

Best fight choreography in the series still baffled by how anyone could think the Kahuna Battles' are okay given what came before.

What would necessarily be the point of Greninja having all that focus if it was not going to be released, then?
How Greninja ended up is barely relevant since either way it would not be included in the next series and we would see it barely to never.

 

[Gengarzilla]

XY was my favourite series once upon a time before the Z part came about and pushed Ash too far down the other end of the competence scale. I didn't like it when BW made him dumb as a rock and gave him an mediocre team save for Krookodile, Pignite, and maybe Snivy, but I also wasn't going to stand for him fighting equally with the region's Champion either. Even if she's not Cynthia, Diantha's meant to be the best trainer in Kalos and yet we were really expected to buy his full capacity Ash-Greninja overpowering her Mega Evolved ace? Absolute bullshit.

There were a couple of other issues I had with the sub-series before that, like how Noivern's evolution episode was just a lazy and poor remake of Talonflame's second one, but it was because of this and the ridiculous battle against Sawyer shortly after (Noivern beating Doublade when it realistically shouldn't have, Ash playing poorly around Clawitzer in general, then him losing solely because he couldn't get Ash-Greninja to work) when I went back to Team DP. Those instances were the last straw as far as I was concerned and the good parts of the Kalos League and Flare Finale weren't enough to mend this. The way Ash had come to quickly rely on something that clearly wasn't dependable yet also brought back bad memories of Iris constantly using her disobedient new Dragonite in the Junior Cup; it was a clear sign to me that XY's writing quality was going downhill if the supposed best series was reminding me of that.

Really, most of my problems with XYZ stem from Greninja's stupid new trick and how the battles it took part in became so mind-numbing to watch. I am genuinely convinced that Ash straight up loses all his usual battle smarts when he begins using this because he threw out nearly all of his bright ideas and just sent it on brainless rampages while accompanied by some rock tracks and crazy camera angles. Just compare how Ash battles with Pikachu and Greninja in his Snowbelle Gym rematch and the Kalos League, the difference is day and night. One of them traps a Gyro Ball user by making a hole in the ground and jams a piece of wood into an Aegislash's shield, the other simply hits things until they stop moving while a musician and choreographer try to make you like this stuff. You've also got to remember how much more cleverly Ash fought Olympia compared to Wulfric as these consecutive Gym battles even included the same two freaking Pokémon!

All of that is why I like SM far more in comparison. There's no doubt that this series has some problems of its own, but the shift to a lighter tone and Ash being just a good trainer instead of an almost unbeatable one this time around is something I've really approved of. Heck, I've found the battles more entertaining and enjoyable too; Pikachu's escape from Misty's Mega Gyarados's Hurricane trap was more exciting than anything Greninja did. The Ash I loved made his return in that battle and proved he didn't need XYZ's crutch any more.

 

[Almonds]

Remember when Greninja was a Froakie? Like, Froakie, the proud starter who was all for justice and fought against Team Rocket even before he was friends with Ash? The little backstory about Froakie being the one to reject previous trainers was a brilliant twist on the past "trainer rejects/abandons pokemon" trope. Froakie chose Ash as his trainer, and it made their relationship all the more unique from the very beginning. Not to mention that Froakie had an episode or two of him disobeying Ash, not because he disrespected Ash, but because he believed himself to be capable enough to battle on his own. He eventually learned to trust Ash as his trainer and this would lead to the spectacular battle strategies we would see later in the series.

I understand that Ash leaving Greninja with Zygarde can be upsetting, but if we look back on the early episodes, it isn't out of place or out of character for Greninja to want to stay in Kalos, or for Ash to leave Greninja in Kalos. After all, Zygarde proposed that Greninja stay and protect Kalos, and I don't see the very heroic Greninja or Ash refusing outright.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

It matters to me damn it and those vines were an asspull. In terms of the meta narrative it matters whether the advancement Ash gets through having that powerhouse is permanent. If we're going to act like oaked Pokémon don't matter what's the point of having any continuity between seasons at all?

I get the arguments but, it devalues the Greninja arc for me personally to have the asspull vines rip Ash away from the fruits of his labor.

I honestly was expecting more blowback for the throw away insult directed at SM's fight choreography.


The music was good.

 

[Silktree]

If we're going to act like oaked Pokémon don't matter what's the point of having any continuity between seasons at all?

Right now the continuity nods involve OS only. XYZ had none of any substance.

 

[DarkraiKnight]

I agree that XY/XYZ did many things that may have played a part in how the community is nowadays. At the end of the day, however, it is just a show. If people want to be jerkwads, they will be; they don’t need a show to influence them.

Right now the continuity nods involve OS only. XYZ had none of any substance.

That’s not exactly true. Ash has remembered Pokémon from Kalos in this series (the prime example I can think of being Deddene in “Dummy, You Shrunk the Kids!”), as well as Pokémon from Unova and other regions other than Alola. Also, if one interprets it in such a way, the rock climbing trick that Rockruff did in the fight against Olivia could’ve been a nod to the battle with Grant, much like how Pikachu striking Hariyama’s legs in Hala’s battle was a nod to the rematch with Brawly.

 

[Silktree]

Then I'll put it this way: Direct references that can only be understood if you've watched a previous series. Kids are unlikely to care where Ash has met a Pokemon before if he doesn't actually say anything of note about it.

 

[SammyW27]

The Good:
-GORGEOUS animation
-Ash at his best as a trainer
-Bonnie (before the title change)
-Team Flare
-The TRio at their best (before SM)
-Hawlucha
-Pokemon with some depth & personality
-Cool battles
-Serena's crush on Ash (poor fool, she makes laugh)
-Well used Gym Leaders
-The most dramatic/serious moments since DP

The Bad:
-The rivals were chumps
-Showcases
-Ash-Greninja
-Ash was kind of a stiff this this, and may have been a little TOO good
-Ash-tachii at its 2nd dullest
-Bonnie (after the title change)
-The overall cast at its smallest since the OS; with the COTD population the highest it had been since early AG, recurring characters going long stretches between appearances, and recording breaking(?) number of episodes where Ash-tachii and the TRio were the only humans around.
-Some of those dramatic/serious moments were them making mountains out of mole hills
-Ash getting not one, but TWO Dragon-types with rushed development and misused/underused
-No references to past sagas
-Clemont doing little between his Gym Battle with Ash and the League.

 

[DarkraiKnight]

No references to past sagas

Well, that's not exactly true. There was that one thing where he referenced Dawn's Piplup, for example. However, it's true that XY does feel like the most detached out of all the series.

 

[Islander Princess]

It's been said a few times in this thread, but every single Pokémon series has its flaws. Not a single one is perfect. At the end of the day, one's opinion about each series ultimately comes down to personal likes/dislikes of what they like in a series and what they don't like.

I've never been shy in saying that XY/XYZ is my least favorite series. For starters, I'm not a huge fan of battles and XY/XYZ was very battle heavy. Granted, the battles were beautifully animated and pleasant to watch, but I get bored of battles pretty quickly (I tend to zone out during gym battles from Kanto, if that tells you anything) so half the time during XY/XYZ I realized after a while I had stopped paying attention during a lot of the episodes.

My biggest problem with XY/XYZ, however, was the characterization. I really feel like the writers shafted Serena, Clemont, and Bonnie, and to me, that's disappointing. I feel like I've got a very good grasp on the personality types of Ash's other travelling companions; if I'm writing or reading a story, I know what to expect out of those characters and what comes across as OOC. For those three though, I struggle. I've never really been able to pinpoint their exact personalities, how they would behave or react in certain situations, etc. It leads to them feeling very distant and static. Even their chemistry as a group felt way off, because they just didn't have anything distinct about them beyond a couple of surface, defining traits. I feel like there's so much more the writers could've done with them, and delved into, and they just didn't. I mean, if I have a better understanding of the gym leaders' personalities than the main characters'...that's a problem.

I really liked XY in the beginning when it first started. It really had a lot of potential and seemed to separate itself a bit from other series. Then the wheels started to fall of a little bit. I think XYZ was, for me, when it got really rough...I haven't even watched all of it, which was a first for me in Pokémon.

They did do a lot of things right that I hope they carry over into the next series (the fact that gym leaders had actual personalities and were much more important to the plot was insanely fun and one of my personal XY/XYZ highlights) but a lot to learn from as well.