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What's your opinion on the XY/XYZ saga?

yab

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It was awful. Actually, XYZ was awful. XY wasn't too bad. It was too edgy and there felt no continuation to the previous Saga's. This is mainly seen through Ash's identity, where he slowly became the archetype to every negative characterization of a shohen protagonist. By the final gym the show had become this massive Ash circle jerk and the other characters were left in the shadows. If we could consider a percentage of time dedicated towards each character in the show since it's beginning, Ash was focused on far more in XY than even in the indigo plateau. Seriously, everything revolved around him and it was tiring. Then there is the league, which was only saved by it's animation. However, the handling of it was far worse than Best Wishes. The pacing was awful and the lack of reserves was upsetting.

The only positive to the show was it's animation and Serena and Ash's relationship. The rest was forgettable and the whole show was completely over-hyped. Sinnoh is still the best Pokemon series to date, and by a large margin too.
I don't really understand this viewpoint, the show became massively about Ash at the end for the same reason Ash/Paul and the Chimchar storyline took up the bulk of DP. The only difference of course is Dawn got a lot of screentime compared to Serena, but then you have Brock who was basically pointless in DP whereas Bonnie had fun moments throughout the series and a great role in the Team Flare arc, and Clemont got pretty decent focus for a male companion in the series. The show also wasn't any more "edgy" than the darker parts of DP such as Paul abusing Chimchar or Hunter J, or Dawn's depression streak. While XY did glorify Ash a lot, it more or less made sense given what point we are in his journey, it's why so many people thought he could possibly win the league based on how he was portrayed.

But no one will remember Kalos.
XY seems to be remembered just fine given we're already 3 years after it ended. Bonnie and Clemont are still very popular and liked characters, Serena is depending on how much people liked her crush, and Ash's XY pokemon are very popular. In fact there's often a debate between DP/XY which was the best saga, with Kanto / OS and AG somewhere in the middle, then SM and BW. Unless the Gen 8 saga turns out to be really good and amazing, XY will probably stand out the most of every saga of the 2010's.
 
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XY was supposedly composed as a response to Sinnoh after the backlash Best Wishes received. You can see it through Ash and Greninja's relationship mirroring Ash and Infernape's. Showcases was a response to contests and the show focused on character progression and growth, as did Diamond and Pearl. However, none of these were able to match Sinnoh. Showcases made no sense; admittedly, it was also a patronizing response to contests. It was secluded to one gender and made no attempt to showcase strength, rather it was all about looking good. (Hey girls you too can look good and not be strong by being in showcases). Meanwhile, contests avoided any stereotypes and showed that strength can be found through beauty. Dawn and Zoey's contests were focused on juxtaposing strength with beauty. Ironic how Sinnoh began 7 years prior to kalos, however, Sinnoh was far more progressive. I could go on here, but you answered my own question there. Alain isn't comparable to Paul and Serena isn't comparable to Dawn. This is where the show went wrong. There used to be a May vs Dawn debate way back, however, that didn't even exist this time because it wasn't even much of a debate to begin with.

By the way, Best Wishes and Sun and Moon are far below XY, so there are worse options out there. But I think people will always remember Sinnoh, like they did with Hoenn. But no one will remember Kalos.
Says you I still remember Kalos even more than Hoenn.
 
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XY was supposedly composed as a response to Sinnoh after the backlash Best Wishes received. You can see it through Ash and Greninja's relationship mirroring Ash and Infernape's. Showcases was a response to contests and the show focused on character progression and growth, as did Diamond and Pearl. However, none of these were able to match Sinnoh. Showcases made no sense; admittedly, it was also a patronizing response to contests. It was secluded to one gender and made no attempt to showcase strength, rather it was all about looking good. (Hey girls you too can look good and not be strong by being in showcases). Meanwhile, contests avoided any stereotypes and showed that strength can be found through beauty. Dawn and Zoey's contests were focused on juxtaposing strength with beauty. Ironic how Sinnoh began 7 years prior to kalos, however, Sinnoh was far more progressive. I could go on here, but you answered my own question there. Alain isn't comparable to Paul and Serena isn't comparable to Dawn. This is where the show went wrong. There used to be a May vs Dawn debate way back, however, that didn't even exist this time because it wasn't even much of a debate to begin with.
I think claiming that XY was a response to DP after the backlash towards BW is a pretty huge stretch. Despite how much fans complained about it, we don't know if it did that poorly among the target audience in Japan. I doubt that the writers would care enough about what older fans think of the series to make a response against them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have followed up XY with a more laid back series like SM. Ash and Greninja's relationship wasn't really anything like what Ash and Infernape's relationship was. Ash got Infernape to further develop his relationship with Paul and the struggle to control its Blaze ability was established when it was a Chimchar. They didn't establish Greninja's special form until just before it evolved. There was an effort to control it, but it wasn't akin to Infernape's Blaze.

Showcases weren't a response to Contests. They were just a watered down version of Contest appeals minus the battles and anything that made Contests interesting in the first place. As much as I would have loved to see them include Contests again, it just wouldn't have worked. Serena didn't even get her first Princess Key until the second year of the series, so I don't think that they would have had enough time to do a proper return to Contests. They just made up Showcases since X/Y didn't have any other features that they could have adapted into a goal.

SinnohBoi said:
By the way, Best Wishes and Sun and Moon are far below XY, so there are worse options out there. But I think people will always remember Sinnoh, like they did with Hoenn. But no one will remember Kalos.
I'm sure people are going to remember XY. It was pretty popular during its run, many fans consider it to be one of the best Pokemon series, if not the best one, most of the characters were well received/popular in their own right and there were a lot of stand out moments and battles. Plus, stuff like the Kalos League and Team Flare arcs are going to make it memorable. I don't think it's going to be left forgotten anytime soon.

I don't really understand this viewpoint, the show became massively about Ash at the end for the same reason Ash/Paul and the Chimchar storyline took up the bulk of DP. The only difference of course is Dawn got a lot of screentime compared to Serena, but then you have Brock who was basically pointless in DP whereas Bonnie had fun moments throughout the series and a great role in the Team Flare arc, and Clemont got pretty decent focus for a male companion in the series. The show also wasn't any more "edgy" than the darker parts of DP such as Paul abusing Chimchar or Hunter J, or Dawn's depression streak. While XY did glorify Ash a lot, it more or less made sense given what point we are in his journey, it's why so many people thought he could possibly win the league based on how he was portrayed.
Saying that Brock was basically pointless in DP doesn't make sense when he did play a key role in the Team Galactic climax. He also taught Dawn about treating Pokemon with first aid and that was pretty important with how Mamoswine started to listen to her. A lot of fans thought that Brock was around for too long by the time DP started and I can understand that, but saying that he was pointless despite being important for at least two major plot points is ridiculous.
 
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By the way, Best Wishes and Sun and Moon are far below XY, so there are worse options out there. But I think people will always remember Sinnoh, like they did with Hoenn. But no one will remember Kalos.
Oh, I don't think anyone's going to forget Kalos anytime soon. Especially when Super Smash Bros Ultimate immortalized Greninja with this:

 
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Oh, I don't think anyone's going to forget Kalos anytime soon. Especially when Super Smash Bros Ultimate immortalized Greninja with this:

I never once said Greninja was a bad Pokemon, nor was his relationship with Ash was bad as well. However, I wouldn't use Smash Bros as an indicator for lasting popularity. I don't see people caring about ice-climbers and more people will be playing the eventual Sinnoh remake than Smash Bros considering Pokemon is a bigger franchise than Smash bros.

However, Can we all agree that the non-existence of Pre-BW ost is a bad thing for the current series? (including XY?)
 
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I never once said Greninja was a bad Pokemon, nor was his relationship with Ash was bad as well. However, I wouldn't use Smash Bros as an indicator for lasting popularity. I don't see people caring about ice-climbers and more people will be playing the eventual Sinnoh remake than Smash Bros considering Pokemon is a bigger franchise than Smash bros.

However, Can we all agree that the non-existence of Pre-BW ost is a bad thing for the current series? (including XY?)
My point is that Ash-Greninja will be remembered for a long time, and Smash Bros is where everyone wants a representation. It's how Nintendo characters remain popular in the event of a hiatus. And Smash Bros can influence the future games.

And honestly, that's a big part of XY and XYZ. A crucial part. And since Ash-Greninja appears in Smash Bros as well as the Sun and Moon games, people would more likely remember Ash's Greninja more than Infernape and Sceptile. Only Charizard rivals Greninja, and that's because it's Charizard.
 
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I'm currently re-watching XY and I can confirm that it is the best series ever.

Serena actually already had lots of development within the first thirty episodes. Y'all are just mad cause it's not goal related. Personal growth counts imo too!

Also I like how they gave the gym leaders things to do outside of their gyms. The Battle Chateau episode was fun, seeing two gym leaders together.
 
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I've only seen maybe an 8th of the episodes. No joke :eek:
I really don't like Serena either. Her whole character is pretty much being in love with Ash. Boring. I don't think, from what I saw, it was that bad.
I'm bias toward Sinnoh, though.
 
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Can anyone explain to me why DP is so "amazing"? I do not get it
 
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Can anyone explain to me why DP is so "amazing"? I do not get it
Good rival, actual meaningful growth of Ash thanks to the rival, an actual ideology difference beyond "I hate you because you’re a noob", some people like Dawn's development and she was actually elevated to protagonist status with Ash. The league had great battles. The series was chock full of new battle strategies like Counter Shield, removing toxic spikes using Flare Blitz, eating your own energy ball to power up, and the sheer amount of improvised moves thanks to contests. No series in the history of the franchise comes close to the amount of unique and consistent strategies DP has come up with.

Ash's Pokemon development was beautifully intervened with that of Paul's- Ash's Grotle learning how to battle defensively from Paul's Torterra, evolution of Ash's Gligar, Electrivire encouraging Infernape to continue battling at the league and win. Even though Tobias felt cheap, Ash defeated the strongest Pokemon in all of Sinnoh, and the second Pokémon belonging to the trainer. The league also didn’t forget Ash's older Pokémon, giving a lot of them a chance to shine.

Actually giving us a truly lovable Raichu in the camp episode.

These are the reasons I personally consider the DP series my favourite. The fact that it was the first series I ever watched and introduced me to the world of Pokémon doesn’t help.
 
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Very funny how the thread title was very provocative at the beginning and the admins have decided to change the title instead of removing the thread despite of the reports, but at the same time the "new member" has their posts only in this thread, and also they were last active the day the thread was created.
 
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Very funny how the thread title was very provocative at the beginning and the admins have decided to change the title instead of removing the thread despite of the reports, but at the same time the "new member" has their posts only in this thread, and also they were last active the day the thread was created.
Probably one of the regular members' puppet account.
 
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While the fandom consensus is that XY succeeded where BW failed miserably at, a new analysis shows that a romance plot was used to hide many of the same mistakes made by its predecessor . In this essay I will...

XY was disappointing. Not that it was bad, but I expected something more. Still, I would say it's my third favorite series, with DP being my #1 favorite and AG coming second. I will ignore many aspects of the series to focus my attention on just three: battles, friends, and rivals.

BATTLES
Although the battles improved when compared to the ones we used to get in BW (vs. Elesa at the Nimbasa Gym was so incredibly awkward to watch), I didn't like the battles in XY very much because the camera was always moving too fast and from several different angles. Some people may like it that way, but I felt dizzy. I also found it to be something the writers would resort to in order to make the battles look better than they actually were. Please tell me some iconic battle tactics employed by Ash this saga. There aren't many of them. Battles in this series were made "epic" through the use of gimmicks such as Mega Evolution and Bond Phenomenon. Outside of that, they are pretty ordinary.

I don't even need to mention Counter Shield to make a point about DP being miles better at delivering good strategic moves, just watch the battle between Ash's Pikachu and Sho's Raichu in Pika and Goliath!. The use of Pikachu's tail in that episode reminds me of Zoey using her Glameow's tail throughout the series, and then there's the spinning evasive and the various combinations that were developed by Dawn and her rivals, as well as Chimchar ice-skating at the Snowpoint Gym, and many others.

The above paragraph mentions Dawn's strategies, and these were mostly used in Pokémon Contests, but I think it's important to mention the several battles Dawn took part in that were conducted outside a Contest Hall. She battled Elite Four member Lucian, she challenged Maylene to a Gym battle, she entered the Hearthome City Tag Battle Competition, and in various occasions she was Ash's Tag Battle partner. You can count on your hands the battles Serena participated in, and half of them were interrupted, such as vs. Aria in Battling with Elegance and a Big Smile! and vs. Woodward in Mending a Broken Spirit!. This is, in my opinion, a low point for the series.

FRIENDS
Individually, Ash's Kalosian friends are good-ish characters. I have some issues with how little Clemont involved himself in the plot. The only notable thing he ever did was handing Ash the Voltage Badge, prior to and after that he just seemed to be there. Unlike Iris and Cilan who came before him, and also unlike Ash's Alolan classmates who succeeded him, Clemont never entered a Pokémon competition and never had a rival. Episodes focusing on him are actually episodes focusing on Bonnie, and that's a little sad. On a happier note, he wasn't annoying, so there's that.

Bonnie was handled better than Max because she actually acted like a child would. She disliked vegetables and had cute pajamas, but more importantly she was greatly impressed by her surroundings. She was discovering the things that Max knew from books before leaving home.

I've talked about Serena in several other threads and it's tiresome, so I won't be long. If anyone's interested, they can read this. I just want to say that I don't hate her or anything, but I feel bad for her. Her goal was a mess. She took a whooping 40 episodes to learn about Pokémon Showcases, then 20 episodes to make her debut as a Performer, another 20 episodes to win her first Princess Key, and less than 35 episodes after winning her first Key she earned two more and lost to Aria in the Master Class. So there's clearly a pacing problem here. This is on top of every other problem this trash of a competition had. People should not be told what they can or cannot do based on their genitalia. The series preceding XY are far more progressive. We have to move forward and denouncing gender roles (while respecting gender identity) is a part of that.

Individually, Clemont, Bonnie, and Serena are good characters. As a group, however, they are a complete disaster. When DP was airing, people would say that Brock could be axed and no one would notice. They also said he had no real connection to Dawn, but they were lying. Brock and Dawn still had meaningful interactions, which is something I can't say about Serena and Clemont. Unlike Brock, who traveled with Ash and Dawn throughout the entire Sinnoh region, Clemont was away while training for his Gym battle with Ash, and he wasn't dearly missed. Unlike May and Dawn, Serena wasn't greeted by her friends immediately after losing her dream competition, instead she went to a room with a stranger. Even though Dawn was the one who wore a cheerleading uniform, it's Clemont, Bonnie, and Serena who are Ash's biggest fans. Being a fan, I must add, it's not the same as being a friend.

RIVALS
All of them are lackluster. All of them. Yes, Alain included. All of them.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they are terrible characters, I'm saying they didn't work as rivals. Remember when people said Zoey was the absolute worst because she was always there to lend a hand instead of being a jerk like Paul? Or how poor little Kenny was bland and boring? I remember. I also remember that Zoey was so good at being a Coordinator that she inspired Dawn to better herself. From Zoey's debut episode, in which she said she would be waiting for Dawn in the finals, Dawn worked hard to get there. Regarding Kenny, well, his mere presence in the Sandalstraw Contest was pressuring Dawn. He warned her that she would not be defeating him this time, and he went on to win that Ribbon. At the end of that episode, he also said he would be getting his fifth Ribbon ahead of Dawn. It was friendly, for sure, but there was some form of competition.

Now can we say the same thing about Serena's rivals? We can't. The fact that Performers are unable to have a direct confrontation (as in a battle) is a problem, but Serena still could feel pressured when sharing the stage with Shauna, Miette, and Nini. However, Serena never had to worry about any of them. She won her second Princess Key in a competition Shauna had entered, and you could say Shauna was a distraction. Serena never once thought "oh this is the girl who informed me about Showcases in the first place", she wasn't threatened by Shauna's skills or anything. She would barely interact with her rivals in these competitions. In fact, not counting that crying scene in the Master Class, her interactions with Miette never had anything to do with Showcases, they would rather talk about Serena's crush on Ash, with Miette saying she would steal him from Serena. Terrible.

Ash's situation is a little bit better. While Tierno and Trevor are unremarkable, Sawyer and Alain stand out, one for looking up to Ash and the other for his backstory that was developed through four special episodes that eventually intertwined with the main series. I never expected much of Tierno and Trevor. Tierno was doomed to follow in the footsteps of Stephan (the friendly and goofy rival that we don't take seriously) and Trevor didn't even have enough appearances for us to care. Whenever he appeared, it was to take photos of a Legendary Pokémon, not to battle Ash.

I had hopes for Sawyer, and it's sad how he was sidelined when Alain made his way into the main anime. Sawyer was gradually sharpening his skills as a Trainer and, in my opinion, it would be nice to see him defeating Ash in the Lumiose Conference. Well, it would certainly be better than seeing Cameron defeating Ash in the Vertress Conference. Sadly, the writers decided to give that role to Alain, who had no business being in the League, and Sawyer peaked in A Full-Strength Battle Surprise!.

Alain shouldn't have entered the League and it was out of character for him to be there. He had never displayed any real interest in joining the League. Since his debut, his goal was to defeat Trainers who were able to Mega Evolve their Pokémon and he would ignore those who weren't. Alain's Charizard had ten consecutive battles against Mega-Evolved Pokémon, one of them belonging to Elite Four member Malva, and suddenly Alain decided he wanted to defeat eight Gym Leaders and enter a competition to face regular Pokémon? It was so random. What does that golden trophy he was awarded means to him? In doing that the writers stole Sawyer's thunder and closed Alain's story in a mediocre way. What an unsatisfying conclusion.

BONUS: SHOWCASES
A disastrous mistake. A step towards the wrong direction. Something so ill-conceived and poorly executed that it harms XY real bad. A true tragedy.
 
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