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Which is better: Johto or BW?

Which is the better saga?


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P0KEM0N

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I am making this topic out of curiosity, so I REALLY apologize if this is not an appropriate topic to make.

Anyways, which saga do you this is better: Johto or Best Wishes? Explain.
 
Johto easily wins out for me. It does have quite a few problems like with the pacing, Ash's underdeveloped Johto team, the reliance of his Kanto Pokemon at the start and end of Johto, which ties into his underdeveloped Johto team, and Misty and Brock still being in the background for the most part. They did get more screentime than they did in Kanto, but that's not saying much. Still, Ash's Johto Pokemon, despite their underdevelopment, had more personality than his Kanto team, most of the Gym battles were far better than his Gym battles in Kanto and the Orange Islands and the Johto League was a lot better than the Indigo League. It really felt that he had made some good progress as a trainer. He wasn't as mature as he became in the later series, but his battle skills were much better and his place in the Johto League reflects that well.

While there were a lot of filler episodes, I actually didn't think that most of them were that bad. They were pretty fun to me, although there were bad ones and ones that were just plain boring. It would have been nice if they had a few mini arcs like they did near the end of Johto with the whole arc, but I still enjoyed it.

BW doesn't really do that much. The Gym battles aren't that good at all. Ash's skills took a step backwards, as opposed to forward, in this series and his Gym battles, as well as his matches in the League, demonstrates that too. His Unova team feels undeveloped too, but that's mainly because they gave him too many Pokemon, instead of giving him another five Pokemon to focus on like in the last couple of series. Most of his Pokemon don't have much personality to make them more entertaining/memorable characters at least like what his Johto had. Iris is completely annoying and unlikable for me. Cilan is a fun and entertaining character and some of the filler episodes are pretty decent too, but for the most part, this series just falls flat for me in various areas.
 
The worst filers of Johto were better than the supposed best episodes of BW. I felt more excitement watching Brock get sick than the entire unova league.
 
I agree. I'd have preferred an episode about someone getting sick in the middle of the league over that one Axew filler.
 
While most of the BGMF fandom considers these the two worst sagas in the anime, I personally don't agree with them at all. To me, BW has been decent, and I liked Johto myself. Then again, I tend to have different tastes from a lot of people when it comes to the anime these days.

That being said, I'm going with Johto as being the better saga. I thought it was better structured, and despite the excess amount of fillers (which is the main complaint from fans about it), it still had Ash, Misty, and Brock as the main protagonists (the OS group is my favorite), and Team Rocket were funny the whole time and pretty much made the saga for me (James the "Flaming Moltres" and the fact that they were only stealing that kid's information in the Dojo episode that it was "only his data" are lul-worthy moments amongst several others). An additional plus for me is that it has the original 4Kids English dub voices, and I loved those a lot, so that made the saga even better for me. While the rivalries felt scattered, I feel at the end of the day, they felt more cohesive. The resolution to the Ash v. Gary rivalry was exceptionally well done and well written, and the gym battles were better done than in Kanto or OI. The League was considerably better as well. Unova has had relatively poor gym battles (some were good, though, but the 4th and 8th in BWS1 = X_X), and I dare not mention the League. The Johto League is arguably the best, while the Unova League is arguably the worst, so I have to give that to Johto without a doubt. The farewell between Ash, Misty, and Brock was done rather decently, but it could've been done so much better, yet it's been better than any of the other goodbyes in the entire anime, so I don't expect Unova's to stack up.

In general there was far more depth to the characterizations in the earlier sagas of the anime to me when it comes to the Pokemon, and Johto was no exception. Ash shielding his Chikorita from the freezing cold temperatures outside shows how as a trainer he actually cares for all Pokemon, and how he was willing to go to such lengths to protect his Pokemon from falling into the wrong hands (e.g. Cyndaquil). Ash also grew as a trainer and his maturation was believable for the most part in this saga, while in Unova he regained his personality he lost a lot of in Sinnoh, IMO, at the cost of losing his battling skills and brainpower, so point goes to Johto. Though, bear in mind I generally prefer the older seasons of the anime to the newer seasons of the anime myself.

Overall, I prefer Johto to BW, though.
 
I don't particularly care for either but Johto had a much better league and I liked the eps Ash's Kanto Pokemon were featured for.

Now in terms of the main cast:

- Johto Ash and BW Ash are almost exactly the same. They're both a step above Kanto but below Hoenn/Sinnoh.

- Johto Misty and Iris....meh. No real preference here either way. Nothing much to say.

- Johto Brock and Cilan...both are good.
 
I don't particularly care for either but Johto had a much better league and I liked the eps Ash's Kanto Pokemon were featured for.

Now in terms of the main cast:

- Johto Ash and BW Ash are almost exactly the same. They're both a step above Kanto but below Hoenn/Sinnoh.

I disagree. During Johto, Ash actually made progress with his Gym battles and the Johto League, even though the later portions of the arc he relied on his older Pokemon for the most part. Still, he didn't make mistakes nearly as bad as what he did in his Nimbasa Gym battle and he didn't look like such a poor trainer like he did with his battles against Trip and especially his match against Roxie. I agree that he was a step above Kanto in both sagas, while below Hoenn and Sinnoh in general, but the seeds of Ash's skills being as good as they were in Hoenn were planted during Johto. Ash in BW hasn't really shown any kind of improvement and has regressed as far as his skills as a trainer are concerned.

The Fighting Misty said:
- Johto Misty and Iris....meh. No real preference here either way. Nothing much to say.

Despite my complete indifference towards her character, I'll have to go with Misty. She never appealed to me, but that is better than finding her completely annoying, unlikable and glorified for doing nothing like with Iris.

The Fighting Misty said:
- Johto Brock and Cilan...both are good.

I agree. Cilan does at least stand out more than Brock did at times, but they're both enjoyable characters that fit their role in the cast well.
 
Well this is Johto Brock so he was still good...lol. I keep comparing Sinnoh Brock to Cilan though, only because that's what I think of when people compared Brock/Cilan.

As for the Pokemon on the group at the time...again.....meh. I only really liked Bayleef on Ash's Johto team. But Ash's Unova team is just as meh, so I don't know. They're like his two worst Pokemon teams in the entire series.
 
Well this is Johto Brock so he was still good...lol. I keep comparing Sinnoh Brock to Cilan though, only because that's what I think of when people compared Brock/Cilan.

Sinnoh Brock...my god. Imagine taking one of the most likeable characters on the show and turning him into...that. It was honestly for the best Cilan came in when he did. I couldn't bear to see what they were doing to Brock at that point.
 
Well this is Johto Brock so he was still good...lol. I keep comparing Sinnoh Brock to Cilan though, only because that's what I think of when people compared Brock/Cilan.

I liked him throughout his run on the show, although I can see why he wouldn't for others.

The Fighting Misty said:
As for the Pokemon on the group at the time...again.....meh. I only really liked Bayleef on Ash's Johto team. But Ash's Unova team is just as meh, so I don't know. They're like his two worst Pokemon teams in the entire series.

I liked Cyndaquil, although I'm a bit bias since Cyndaquil was my first Pokemon in the games, and it had some good battles. Despite how they didn't get much battles, I liked Totodile and Noctowl. Totodile was adorable and had more personality than Squirtle at least and Noctowl definitely stood out more than Pidgeotto did. Most of Ash's Johto team, while underdeveloped, at least had some personality traits to make them stand out. Ash's Unova team doesn't really have that for most of the Pokemon he's caught, so that makes it wost to me.
 
I liked Cyndaquil, although I'm a bit bias since Cyndaquil was my first Pokemon in the games, and it had some good battles. Despite how they didn't get much battles, I liked Totodile and Noctowl. Totodile was adorable and had more personality than Squirtle at least and Noctowl definitely stood out more than Pidgeotto did. Most of Ash's Johto team, while underdeveloped, at least had some personality traits to make them stand out. Ash's Unova team doesn't really have that for most of the Pokemon he's caught, so that makes it worst to me.

I liked his whole Johto team too.

Not sure on Totodile vs. Squirtle. I feel Totodile was really hyperenergetic, while his Squirtle was more the cool, subdued type. I can't say either had more personality than the other.

As for Noctowl vs. Pidgeotto, I'd have to agree his Noctowl definitely had more personality than his Pidgeotto. His Pidgeotto was cool, but his Noctowl's whole story and use was really interesting and it had quite an interesting personality.

I really liked his Bayleef's personality. Very cute and funny.
 
Johto. Ash hadn't been reset, and his loss in the league tourney wasn't so embarrassing. Plus Trip doesn't hold a candle to Gary Motherf**king Oak. Nor does Iris to Misty. Or Cilan to Brock.
 
I didn't care for Ash's Johto team back then because they came across as weak replacesments for Ash's Kanto team.

Back then Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were viewed as staples of Ash's team, and to go from those 3 to what seemed like Pokemon who had worse personalities and were weaker battlers was a disappointment. Charizard's departure is what actually kickstarted the initial hatred of the Johto saga. I know a lot of people who originally stopped watching the anime because they used to say things like, "How could Ash get rid of his awesome Charizard?" and so forth.

Obviously this doesn't matter now, but back in the time Johto was airing it was a huge disappointment. Ash's Unova team is sad though, no evolutions for the starters and too many pokemon.
 
I didn't care for Ash's Johto team back then because they came across as weak replacesments for Ash's Kanto team.

Back then Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were viewed as staples of Ash's team, and to go from those 3 to what seemed like Pokemon who had worse personalities and were weaker battlers was a disappointment. Charizard's departure is what actually kickstarted the initial hatred of the Johto saga. I know a lot of people who originally stopped watching the anime because they used to say things like, "How could Ash get rid of his awesome Charizard?" and so forth.

I honestly thought that his Johto Pokemon had better personalities than his Kanto Pokemon. Aside from Charizard, they didn't have much personality to me and they weren't really that impressive in battle. Totodile was unfortunately weak, but Bayleef and Cyndaquil, while not powerhouses, were all around solid battlers and considering how the Gym battles were generally better, I don't see how that was a disappointment. People probably saw the Kanto starters as staples of Ash's team simply because they were Kanto starters, but they would have had to leave to make room for other Pokemon they wanted to promote. I also still don't think that Charizard's departure was bad. I actually really liked that episode. It was too bad that Charizard left when it just started to listen not too long beforehand, but I didn't dislike Johto because of that. If only Bulbasaur had been written off earlier instead of taking up space, Phanpy could have actually gotten a Gym battle.

The Fighting Misty said:
Obviously this doesn't matter now, but back in the time Johto was airing it was a huge disappointment. Ash's Unova team is sad though, no evolutions for the starters and too many pokemon.

There is Pignite, but I am disappointed that neither Snivy or Oshawott evolved, especially when there shouldn't be a reason for Snivy to not want to evolve. Ash having at least a Dewott would have been nice, if only to have another evolved Water Pokemon. Having too many Pokemon was definitely a problem, especially when most of the Pokemon that seem to have decent strength are his reserve Unova Pokemon.
 
The worst filers of Johto were better than the supposed best episodes of BW.

You can't be serious. When Johto fillers were bad, they were REALLY bad. And Best Wishes does have some great and memorable episodes.
 
I don't particularly care for either but Johto had a much better league and I liked the eps Ash's Kanto Pokemon were featured for.

Now in terms of the main cast:

- Johto Ash and BW Ash are almost exactly the same. They're both a step above Kanto but below Hoenn/Sinnoh.

What?! I'm sorry but how was Johto Ash similar to BW Ash? Johto Ash just came from winning a league and started getting better in his battles and everything else. In BW, he had just came from defeating two legendaries, had his Pikachu power down as well as his brain mass with most of his rivals dummer than he is. I would never compare Whitney's gym to the horrible mess of Elesa's or compare Skyla's attitude to any of the Johto gymleaders. There is a lot of differences of the Ashs. If anything, comparing Kanto/IS Ash to BW is more better.

- Johto Misty and Iris....meh. No real preference here either way. Nothing much to say.

There was a lot of build up for Iris's development towards to end. Like with the gym leader offer to the Claire thing. With Misty, we didn't even think she was ever going to leave without really getting anything done. So I wouldn't compare them either. More like Kanto Misty and Iris is more similar.

Johto Brock and Cilan...both are good.

Brock did nothing in Johto. Cilan did a whole lot in early BW and has participated in a lot of activates. Again, I wouldn't compare BW to Johto at all. But as far as a series, I actually liked Johto more than BW. Mainly due to Ash, his rivals and what the writers turned him into.
 
I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.
 
I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.

Considering his decisions in his matches against Elesa, Roxie and Cameron, I don't see how he has made better battle decisions in BW. He made some bad calls in Johto too, but he actually improved compared to his Gym matches in Kanto and the Orange Islands and his rank in the Johto League reflects that as well. The Gym battles and the Unvoa League don't give the impression that he's become a better battler. It's more like a step backwards rather than forward. I actually prefer Ash capturing only five or six Pokemon in a generation. At least that way, there's a chance for some believable progress/development of his Pokemon during the course of the series. Ash having too many Pokemon prevents that from happening with the majority of his Unova team.
 
I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.

Considering his decisions in his matches against Elesa, Roxie and Cameron, I don't see how he has made better battle decisions in BW. He made some bad calls in Johto too, but he actually improved compared to his Gym matches in Kanto and the Orange Islands and his rank in the Johto League reflects that as well. The Gym battles and the Unvoa League don't give the impression that he's become a better battler. It's more like a step backwards rather than forward. I actually prefer Ash capturing only five or six Pokemon in a generation. At least that way, there's a chance for some believable progress/development of his Pokemon during the course of the series. Ash having too many Pokemon prevents that from happening with the majority of his Unova team.

The only real better choice he could've made against Roxy was Krokorok... which he didn't have on him because the six on three was brought on spur of the moment and he was most likely planning on using Palpitoad, Pignite, and Boldore in the match. The fact that he didn't have Oshawott or Snivy on him proves that he made a decision to change pokemon before he went to face Roxy.

As for against Elesa... He used intelligent pokemon choices... Palpitoad was immune to Electricity, Snivy has a resistance to Electricity, and Pikachu is his main pokemon and has a resistance to electric attacks. They actually were the best choices amongst his pokemon. The only possible other choice was Swadloon.

Finally against Cameron, Ash didn't know all of what Cameron was using until he got to the battle so he chose diverse pokemon. Point in fact the only Pokémon Ash knew Cameron had were Riolu, Ferrothorn, and Samurott.... and knowing that he chose Snivy, Pignite, and Unfeazant all of whom were strong against the three Pokémon he knew Cameron had. Beyond that he chose Pokemon in order to create a well rounded team.

I fail to see the lack of logic in his choices in Unova...

Meanwhile back in Johto he was cycling through both his Johto and Kanto Pokémon and on numerous occasions chose not to use pokemon that would've been better choices... Yes he did improve from Kanto... but being since about half his badges were pity badges back then...

List of Ash's Pity Badges - Brock (Ash left the battle halfway through and Brock still gave him a badge), Misty (Battle was interrupted, Ash got a badge), Sabrina (Do I really need to mention why this one is a pity badge), Erika (THE PLACE WAS ON FIRE), Viridian (Ash faces Team Rocket... yeah...)

He only won three of his badges in my opinion... and he had to re-challenge each of them after losing or the battle being interrupted or something...

He won almost everything on luck and didn't actually start becoming a decent trainer until around the Indigo League, and even then luck still played a big part...
 
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