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Which is better: Johto or BW?

Which is the better saga?


  • Total voters
    73
well, for some reason i'm a real fan of Johto in the anime, the game, and the mangas. Unova is fine, but the BW series got me a little disappointed...
 
Jouto, hands down. While I have numerous problems with the whole arc (the fillers, Takeshi Shudo being dropped from position as chief writer, the "start" of the simplification of Satoshi's personality, dropped plot threads, etc.), in the end, the best of Jouto easily trumps the best of Best Wishes. The Jouto league was the better league, Satoshi was easily a better trainer and character than BW Satoshi, Lizardon's returns are actually significant, the Jouto movies were better than the Best Wishes movies, the TV Special uses the same Mewtwo we know unlike BW's supposed joke of a 16th movie, and Jouto actually acknowledged Satoshi's past accomplishments within the original series (Top 16 of the Pokemon League and Champion of the Orange League being somewhat recognized is better than forgetting absolutely everything).

Satoshi's Lizardon vs. Shigeru's Kamex > Episode N. That's right, I said it. That was my favorite thing about Best Wishes, and even that fell short.
 
What I do not like about of both sagas is having 'turning a loser into a winner' episodes more than usual. I never liked Paul. But he was right about something. Not every Pokemon can be a winner. I'm so sick of this.

Still, Johto fillers were far better than BW fillers.

I agree with you. The preaching the anime gives is 2-Dimensional and far from the reality. While it's apt for a kid's show, one must acknowledge that Paul is indeed correct to an extent.

I think Satoshi is a hypocrite when it comes to this. He gets impressed by strong Pokemon and tries to catch them too. And even he has quite trouble with Pokemon like Gligar and it took him sometime to work with them. But despite being so, the good part of Ash is he stuck to his words and trained the weak Gligar pretty well.

As a complete saga, I like Best Wishes. Yes, I may sound ridiculous to myself considering how I am a huge DP Satoshi fan. Despite Ash's regression and poor planning of season 2, there were many excellent points in Best Wishes. It was a good change of pace from DP. The ideas they had were excellent and innovative.

My main issue with BW is the league and the improper placement of fillers at the end. The fillers imo are okay, if not excellent, they merely suffer the hate because they are being collected at one place after two years of rushing through things mindlessly.

My problem with Johto was that the fillers were.....what do you say, kinda repetitive. Maybe it's the effect of watching a fast paced saga like Kanto but the slowness of Johto killed me. I merely rolled my eyes throughout a few episodes. But what Johto did well was the league. Format wise, Johto was the best league till date. Entertainment wise, a final 6 v 6 showdown between Gary and Ash always has my thumbs up. But there a few icky parts though (like Golem getting one-shotted). If one would say which do you want BW battles or Johto.....I'll say BW in terms of sensibility but I will choose Johto in terms of writing. (So that the cameron debacle can be avoided)
 
I have to say that Johto kills BW.

- The characters are more likable, and more dynamic (Johto Ash beats BW Ash, Brock beats Cilan, Misty beats Iris, both Johto and BW TR are good, but Johto TR wins, and Gary beats Trip).
- The plots, while less varied, are executed better than BW's and more enjoyable as well, becuase they have better characters to back them up.
- The humor was much better in Johto and didn't rely on cheap gags all of the time.
- Johto being connected to Kanto allows for stronger continuity. Not that BW doesn't have any, but Johto is just better at that kind of thing.
- No new regular characters meant they had to make use of the ones they did have.
- The battles are more entertaining.
- The Pokemon are more memorable than BW's.
- Johto had much more emotion than BW that wasn't forced or rehashed (Charizard's Burning Ambitions murders Evolution By Fire!).
- Johto League at its worst >>>>>> Unova League at its best.
- The openings (both sub and dub) are better than BW's. Ready Go! and OK! destroy Summerly Slope!, Be An Arrow!, and Best Wishes!. Pokemon Johto, Born To Be A Winner, and Believe in Me do the same to Black & White, Rival Destinies, and It's Always You and Me.
- The episode titles, dialogue, voices, music, etc. are better in Johto.
- Its movies (especially Spell of the Unown) are so much better than BW's movies in every single way.
- Nothing to do with the show itself, but: Better advertisement in America (Not sure about Japan).
 
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The worst of Jouto is better than the best of Best Wishes. At least Jouto's badness never made other parts of the anime bad.

To be honest, Jouto is kind of underrated. There are a lot of good episodes in it. Episodes that are funny. Episodes that grow the characters a little. Episodes that are exciting. It's still one of my least favourite series but it's not terrible by any means. It's certainly not worse than Best Wishes.
 
I think Best Wishes was the better saga for a couple of reasons.

* There were rivals before the league throughout the saga. Rivals in general make for really solid arcs and episodes, though with flaws and needed improvements in Best Wishes. Even with these flaws, having rivals made for some entertaining tournaments and episodes.

* There being tournaments. The tournaments I felt were the best arcs of the saga, and unfortunately the Johto saga didn't have them.

* The non-plot related episodes were slightly more entertaining.

Aside from that, I see other things as making neither saga better or worse than the other.
 
Johto by a country mile.

Better gym battles, much better Pokémon rotation, a VASTLY superior League, Ash's rivalry with Gary is better than the one with Trip (and the other Isshu rivals) EVER was, a better sense of humor, a much better Ash-tachi break up, there were guest appearances by Kanto characters that were better than every episode with Dawn combined, the TRio was better handled, it at least started well enough before that nasty business with the GS Herring, somewhat better pacing, and its third year was full of good and even great moments.

Also, I can forgive bad fillers a lot more than I can a bad storyline that should have been better...
 
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Johto of course, you can't even compare it with Bad Wishes (BW)
 
Johto by a country mile.

Better gym battles, much better Pokémon rotation, a VASTLY superior League, Ash's rivalry with Gary is better than the one with Trip EVER was, there were guest appearances by Kanto characters that were better than every episode with Dawn combined, it at least started well enough before that nasty business with the GS Herring, somewhat better pacing, and its third year was full of good and even great moments.

Also, I can forgive bad fillers a lot more than I can a bad storyline that should have been better...

Agreed completely. Looking back, Johto's problems were honestly a lot more negligible than people made them out to be in recent years. If you go in with the mentality that you won't carry overly high expectations about plot, you'd still have a likable TRio, main cast, nice little sub-plots and recurring friends, Gary because he's Gary, and a great league to wrap it all up. To me Johto had a certain adventurous vibe to it (I might attribute that to the theme songs too :3) that none of the other series could quite replicate. Lets not forget movies either, which were certainly more entertaining and magical than the stuff today. Legendaries fighting is seriously getting old.
 
I initially voted “Neither of them” as I’m not a fan of either saga, but upon further reflection I would switch my vote to the Jouto-era if I could. While it’s certainly not lacking for flaws - Kasumi and Takeshi really overstay their welcome by this point, many of Satoshi’s Jouto Pokemon were underdeveloped, Shigeru barely showed up, there was way too much filler for a three-year arc, and many of those filler were nearly identical in their execution, etc. - it at least manages to feel like a progression from the Kanto-era. It also has its good points - namely that Satoshi actually develops as a character to the point where he actually begins earning Gym Badges this time around, Pokemon battles improve from the Kanto-era and the Orange Islands, and the Shirogane Conference is a far better League than Sekiei (in fact, it ties the Sinnoh League as my favorite).

Best Wishes, on the other hand, is just terrible with no reason for being so coming off the very well-written Diamond & Pearl (when it comes to the Jouto-era, you could at least make the excuse that the Kanto-era wasn’t that much better, but the difference in quality between DP and BW is just baffling). Instead of progressing forward, the Satoshi of BW negates all the development the DP Satoshi went through in 191 episodes of Diamond & Pearl in BW’s very first episode. Shooti as a rival can’t even compare to Shigeru, let alone Shinji. Satoshi’s Isshu region Pokemon are as poorly handled as Satoshi’s Jouto region Pokemon, but don’t even have the excuse of the show having Satoshi take his DP Pokemon with him (and as underwhelming as his Isshu Pokemon were, I almost wish Satoshi had done so) like Jouto did with the Kanto Pokemon. Kasumi wasn’t much, but I’d take her over Iris in a heartbeat. And Dent, for as much promise as he showed in the beginning, eventually devolves into a constant running gag, much like Takeshi did (though I’d still take Dent over Takeshi, so that’s one good point in BW’s favor). The Team Rocket of Jouto had already been repetitive since the latter days of the Kanto-era, but they were far more enjoyable than the BW Rockets - they still had their personalities, at least. The battle quality regresses from the standards set by DP, unlike when Jouto Pokemon battles improved from Kanto, with very little in the way of actual strategy or variety in the battle-styles of characters.

So yeah, I’m not a fan of the Jouto-era at all, but it’s far better than Best Wishes.
 
Johto for me. BW had too many flaws for me.

Johto had a far superior league. The Silver Conference was one of the most awesome moments of my childhood. Ash's 6 on 6 battle with Gary and then Charizard vs. Harrison's Blaziken were some of Ash's best battles in the series. The Unova League was just a huge disappointment in comparison.

Gary was also a far superior rival than any of Ash's Unova rivals. The problem with the Unova rivals was that they relied too much on running gags (Stephan's name, Bianca pushing Ash into the water, etc.) and it just got old and tiring. Trip was just too underdeveloped and I think he got 'nice' way too quick. The only major fault I have with Gary is his lack of screentime and his few battles with Ash. They've only battled maybe 3 times throughout the entire series, and because we really didn't see Gary battle much he mostly just came off as all talk. Still, him being rivals with Ash through their childhood make up for it because it shows that they've been rivals for a long time, and when it comes to cocky characters like Gary, of course you'd be more determined to want to take them down.

I find Misty to be more likable than Iris. Yes Misty could be a bitch, but she had a legit reason to be mad at Ash (he freaking destroyed her bike.) Iris on the other hand would call Ash a little kid just because he didn't know how to get to a certain place, even though he's in a new place and won't know his way around right away.. I'll admit that Iris did have more character development than Misty. Besides the Whirl Cup and wanting to capture Corsola, I can't really remember much of what Misty did in Johto. At least Iris did have some stories going for her. Though I did think that Misty had more interesting pokemon. Politoed, Psyduck (even though it kind of took a back seat after a while), Corsola, and even Togepi interested me more than Iris' pokemon. I did like her struggle with Excadrill in the beginning but it got resolved way too quick (though I guess they didn't want to flesh it out like with Charizard or Dawn's Piloswine/Mamoswine.) and once Dragonite became apart of her team I figured that Axew wouldn't evolve since Dragonite would be her powerhouse.

Brock in Johto and Cilan were both entertaining, but Cilan wins for me. I know that most of the things he did were mainly about his hobbies but he was just so entertaining, and I'm being a little biased since Cilan is my favorite male character and honestly one of the reasons I kept watching BW (in Japanese at least. I'm also a big Miyano fan so hearing his voice was so worth it for me) so this isn't really a fair comparison ^^'

Johto had better humor as well. BW relief too much on running gags that got old and tiring. With the edition of Wobbuffet, Team Rocket became so much more entertaining and funny in Johto. I did like how BW tried to do something new by not having them in every episode, but even them episodes still fell flat with or without them. Johto had it's bad episodes too but every saga will have its bad episodes.

So in general Johto is superior to me, but BW had its good moments that I find better than Johto at times, mostly Cilan and a majority of Episode N. Speaking of N and Team Plasma, I do think they were handled a lot better. There were only 2 episodes for the Red Gyarados situation in Johto and Team Rocket wasn't that active besides the TRio, so in terms of handling the game villainous team, BW wins for that. Still, overall I find Johto to be better.
 
Johto for me. To me it was a lot more fun and adventurous. Plus, Ash had some really awesome Pokemon (Noctowl and Totodile!)

Aaaand Johto had some of the best movies. :3 The Entei one and Pokemon Heroes. <3
 
Johto hands down. One of the Golden Ages of Pokemon Anime as well.

Is what I originally said, but after seeing everyone else's elaborate answers I feel I should step up.

Just putting this out there, Johto will always hold a special place in my heart over every other season/saga of Pokemon. Why? Because it was what I came home to everyday after school. It was what I would wake up Saturday mornings to see. It was what fueled my current passion for Pokemon that I have today. It was what guided my imaginary pretending when I would spend hours outside in the backyard catching Pokemon and fighting gym leaders. So every time I happen to see an episode today, it feels so surreal.

Sorry about that, now to the good stuff:

~Better group dynamics. Ash, Misty and Brock have the best synergy in my opinion. Ever since day one, their personalities played off each other and led to a great friendship that defined what friendship is on television shows for quite some time. I agree that Ash, Iris and Cilan's relationship seemed forced. I just didn't feel the friendship that Johto had. Yeah they had moments that it was explicit (like when Ash fought Roxie), but Johto had that too and passively rather than in like every 10-15 episodes. Not to mention, Cilan actually travelling a region in a waiters suit. Also, Iris's "You're such a kid." Biggest hypocrite ever.

~The Voice Acting. Back before Ash was replaced and Misty and Brock had their great VAs. I don't know if its just me, but their VAs just felt...natural. In BW, it doesn't feel that way at all, instead the opposite: reading lines from a page. Especially with Iris.

~Wasn't as ridiculously fast paced as BW was. People complain about the filler episodes, but I enjoyed them. Now I admit some were very slow...but for the most part they spotlighted a new Johto Pokemon, featured a recurring character, or dealt with with main cast. Or were just funny!

~Really good gym battles. Whitney hands down is my favorite, and I really enjoyed Morty's and Jasmine's as well. Also for the most part, the battles were not one-sided or ridiculous (looking at Ash vs Elesa, Ash vs Striaton Trips, Ash vs Brycen and Ash vs Roxie). We see that Ash really has come a long way since Kanto. No regression!

~Rivals actually mean something! Finally we get the climatic Ash vs Gary at the end, and he didn't even use Pikachu! Also the rest of the cast introduced at the League were great. Normally I have an issue with some guy upstaging Ash right before the League ends, but I didn't feel that way with Harrison. I actually liked him, and the spoiler that was Blaziken that was revealed. BW had shitty rivals whose relationships with Ash and co solely revolved around battling with pretty graphics. What I 'm saying is that it felt empty.

~The Whirl Cup! One of my favorite battle tourney arcs (the other being the Hearthome one). Misty gets great screen and battle time, a rather bland section in the game is turned into a great location, and another Ash vs Misty? Yes! BW's tourneys were all meh. Basically they were battles that could have happened outside the arena, thus nothing impressive. Again, it was just an excuse to feature rivals and their potentially new/evolved Pokemon without giving them specific, respective episodes.

~Johto League>BW League. Need I say more? I am still butthurt over how Trip was treated and beat. Really? And Ash losing to Cameron out of all people? The guy that forgot to bring 6 Pokemon to a Full Battle?

~Ash's party. I liked Ash's Johto team, and I loved how he utlized his Kanto Pokemon too. Really symbolized Johto's connection and access to Kanto. They also all had distinct personalities (I loved Chikorita's coveting and Totodile's unrelenting jolly attitude). Seeing Heracross get whipped repeatedly by Bulbasaur was great too. Ash's BW team felt rushed, disorganized and bland. Hated how Snivy started out badass and fell to ruin, how Oshawott was a Piplup clone but worse, and how Tepig was Ash's clear favorite and used like 24/7. And why did he bother to catch Palpitoad? (Sarcasm, I know why he caught it :p)

~Team Rocket! I loved them in Johto, and their interactions among each other and with Ash, Misty and Brock. They were equally good in Sinnoh too. In BW, I died a little inside every time they appeared :/

~No Axew

~The movies! The Entei & Celebi movies were utterly fantastic, as well as the music that accompanied each. Much better than BWs movies imo (what was that Keldeo movie even about). I haven't seen the Latios one, but apparently that one is great as well.

~Johto overall felt more like an adventure to me. Like Ash, Misty and Brock actually traversed the region and experienced and appreciated all it had to offer. Didn't get that at all in BW.

So Johto over BW, all day erry day.
 
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- Johto because despite it's episodes not being relevant to the plot, they were at least actually entertaining (unlike Best Wishes)
- Johto wasn't full of characters that make the viewers want to rip their heads off (unlike Best Wishes)
- The Johto league was amazing to watch (unlike the one in Best Wishes)
- Team Rocket were still great characters (unlike in Best Wishes)
- The humor used in Johto was actually funny (unlike in Best Wishes)
- The Johto pokemon were not annoying (unlike in Best Wishes)

Best Wishes had some good aspects too but IMO not enough to cancel out everything I disliked about it.
 
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