Which was worse; Paul losing to Brandon or when Trip lost his respect for Alder?

[Paulisthebest]

First off, what’s good forum!!! I’m on Thanksgiving Break, so I wanted to post a thread since I haven’t done so in a long time.

I’d say that both rivals of Ash (well I consider Paul a true rival; while Trip…well honestly I still don’t see a real rivalry between the two trainers. Trip probably just sees him as an annoyance which I can’t blame him for) took a hard punch to the gut when their hero let them down (in Trip’s case) or childhood-obstacle effortlessly defeated them (in Paul’s case).

Paul carried that sense of resentment toward his brother since he was a beginning trainer since he changed “careers” from trainer to breeder after losing to Brandon. It affected not just the way he trained his Pokemon, but the way that he battled, his attitude and how he interacted with other people.

Trip was younger than Paul (I’m assuming since Paul had just gotten his Turtwig as his starter Pokemon before he saw Reggie lose so he was at least 10, while Trip said that “when” he became a trainer he would train hard, win the league and challenge Alder hinting that he wasn’t even 10 yet) when he and Alder promised each other to battle one day in the Champion League.

So, while Paul carried around that bitterness for years, Trip had a sense/duty of learning all that he could and becoming strong enough to face Alder in battle one day. One the other side, Paul trained to get stronger but in the exact opposite way of his brother.

I felt bad for Paul since he got the chance to face Brandon, but was blinded by rage when Brandon struck a nerve and his battle strategy got sloppy and he faced a brutal defeat in front of his brother and peers. Trip got his childhood dreams crushed when his hero turned out to be no more than a girl chasing, not to be taken seriously in battle kind of trainer (falling asleep in battle against Ash, well to be honest if I was battling BW series Ash I’d probably fall asleep too…) and then NOT remembering the promise you made hurt Trip to the core. Like the saying goes, “Never meet your heroes”

One thing that added fuel to the fire was Ash; before facing Brandon, Paul was shocked to hear that Ash beat the trainer that his brother could not. Trip got the chance to battle his idol since childhood but Ash was blocking his chance. I mean really Ash; you’ve never beaten Trip since you two met so why get in the way? If I were Trip, I’d give Ash a swift blow to the jaw because Ash needs to grow up…oops my bad he’s still just 10…

Too bad we never got to see a rematch between Paul and Brandon or Trip sticking around to see Alder put his foolishness aside and he alone stopped and helped out that Gigalith.

So, which “defeat” seemed worse? Put aside the fact that you may not like Paul or Trip but to the situations that they both went through.

 

[Likeitornot.]

For me, it was Paul's. The fact that his older brother was such a competitive trainer, until he lost to Brandon and decided not to train, but to breed, is what really glazes up Paul's icy vengance towards the attitude of battling, and his animosity towards his brother, and Ash, as he is remiscent of Reggie. And, when Paul prepared all the time to face Brandon, and to defeat him, yet he lost, and Brandon had no grain of mercy for him. I believe that it was a very powerful battle, and it was quite emotional. It made me feel sympathy and understand Paul's character, something I hadn't done before.
Also, the fact that his lowly rival, Ash, won, must have filled him with pure wrath. And I wouldn't blame him, either.

Trip's... eh, not so much. They didn't expand on it as well, it was a pity that they didn't battle, but it wasn't anything as emotional or as strong as Paul's, well, for me, at least.

 

[HumanDawn]

Trip was happy and energetic as a child, but as he grew older he lost the energy and life, being shown to be bored. Yeah, that's relatable. I would say that they were equally amazed. “YOUR RIVAL BEAT ME WHEN YOU COULDN'T”, “I FORGOT ABOUT YOUR EXISTENCE”.

Wait, I would be pissed off more if somebody forgot about my existence while I remembered theirs than knowing that my rival was better in a sport.

 

[FinalArcadia]

100% Paul. He saw his brother give up on his dreams after losing, which is painful in itself, but then for Paul himself to lose to Brandon, without even defeating one of his Pokemon? That's just... it was kind of hard for me to watch. You can just feel the emotions when Paul battles Brandon, but in regard to Trip losing respect for Alder, that just seemed petty in comparison. And it doesn't help that Trip's business with Alder happened relatively early in BW, whereas we got to see Paul's personality and style for a much longer period of time before he battled Brandon. That made his loss much more meaningful.

And then to find out that your rival who you can't stand beat Brandon? That's just rubbing salt in an already painful wound. I felt bad for Paul after his loss, but I didn't really feel much (or any) sympathy for Trip.

 

[Iteru]

As you're choosing between two people, this is a Contest thread and so I've moved this to the GF.

 

[Feenie]

I'd have to say Paul. Losing to Brandon would be more crushing than losing your respect for somebody... Or, that's what I think. Anything with Paul creates more emotion than anything with Trip. Trip seems like he would lose interest in something quickly, anyway.:sweat:

Seeing his brother, Reggie, lose to Brandon was bad enough... But for YOU to also lose? Pretty sad. :thumbd:

 

[El_]

To be quite honest if I were Alder I'd likely forget about some random uninteresting kid as well. But personal feelings about Trip aside, it was realistic that Alder forgot about him. Just think about how many trainers want to challenge the champion, and likely how many so called "promises" champions make to new young inspiring to be trainers in order to motivate them. I'm sorry, but its Trip that needs to grow up.

Paul's was defenitely worse because it was actually personal. It shook the very foundations of his training and himself as a trainer when Brandon defeated Reggie, and then again when he himself was defeated yet alone learning that Ash had defeated him, basically one of his major goals already accomplished by his rival that he didn't take seriously in his methods to Pokemon. It hardly gets much deeper than that in this show, and that was the deepest rivalry to date.

On Alder, Ash has every right to be inbetween him and Trip because all that Ash has accomplished in comparison to Trip. With Paul its more complicated and a whole lot more personal, doesn't take much to see who wins here.

 

[Paulisthebest]

I love all of the replies so far and "A Pyramiding Rage" was one of my favorite Paul episodes. I mean the battle iteslf was emotional from start to finish. After Electabuzz, Nidoking and Hariyama were beaten and Paul started to lose it I was on the edge of my seat. The most emotional part of the battle was when Brandon started jeering Paul, "And here I thought you wanted to defeat the man that beat your brother.." and asked why he was a trainer in the first place, Paul went off the deep end. From the moment he sent out Larion you could tell that his calm, cool and collected style was gone and his anger got the best of him (not to mention that his team was more equipped for his battle with gym battle with Candace than for a match against Brandon).

Trip, I mean I really don't care for him much but I did feel bad for him. As someone pointed out, the Champ gets challenges all the time and for him to forget is normal. Still Trip was a kid so that childlike innocence is only natural for him to believe his hero would remember him.

 

[FinalArcadia]

The most emotional part of the battle was when Brandon started jeering Paul, "And here I thought you wanted to defeat the man that beat your brother.." and asked why he was a trainer in the first place, Paul went off the deep end. From the moment he sent out Larion you could tell that his calm, cool and collected style was gone and his anger got the best of him (not to mention that his team was more equipped for his battle with gym battle with Candace than for a match against Brandon).

That scene perfectly sums up how much more emotional Paul's loss was. There was just something much deeper going on there than with Trip and Alder. Now, excuse me as I go rewatch "A Pyramiding Rage"... :XD2:

 

[Heartilly]

Trip, I mean I really don't care for him much but I did feel bad for him. As someone pointed out, the Champ gets challenges all the time and for him to forget is normal. Still Trip was a kid so that childlike innocence is only natural for him to believe his hero would remember him.

Alder doesn't remember him!? I haven't seen it yet, but I feel bad for Trip... I mean, Paul's is pretty bad as well, but maybe he did beat Brandon when we didn't see it.

 

[Shinneth]

I don't think bias is clouding my judgment too much this time when I say that Paul was definitely in a more painful scenario than Trip.

Trip's situation essentially is finding out the Easter Bunny isn't real and that he isn't nearly as special to Alder as he once perceived, which should be a little painfully obvious as you get older and realize tons of kids Trip's age were clinging to Alder over the years and Alder fed them the same load of shit just to get them off his back because he's a celebrity, dammit. For all the haughty superiority Trip was proclaimed to have to this point, when it comes right down to it... he's sort of a dumbass. That's a bit of an ouchy, sure, but seeing as Trip didn't even last the whole episode anyway, it's pretty small potatoes compared to Paul's situation.

Paul's situation with Brandon was clearly personal. What struck out the most to me was that his behavior against Brandon was VERY different from when he faced Cynthia, a Champion, and even though he was flattened by her in front of a bunch of kids including his loathed rival, Paul had good sense to know when he was beat and forfeit, carrying himself professionally the entire time. But with Brandon, Paul was suffering one blow after another. Not only was it something that had a profound impact on the beginning of his journey, and something he clearly hasn't forgiven Reggie for since, but his mind was clearly blown when he learned Ash already defeated this guy before the two rivals even met. For all that time Paul belittled Ash for being weak, it must have been a REAL mindfuck and a "open mouth, insert foot" moment for him. A real pride-killer. So naturally that sparked his emotions, which I presume led to him losing control of said emotions because he felt he had something to prove to Reggie, Ash, AND Brandon... only to be flattened effortlessly in a full battle in front of his brother and rival, and this time Paul was determined to fight to the end, even though it was clear at least by the halfway point that Paul had no chance of winning. His reaction when Brandon asked him why he was a Pokemon Trainer told me that Paul had never really thought about his own motivations besides revenge. Not having anything to go by and not willing to admit that out loud, the last of his restraint was lost and all his common sense went away with it. He looked completely broken once he lost, and even the spectators felt sorry for him.

And most notably, Paul had a major change in his character after that battle. He had mellowed out considerably, wasn't prone to outright insulting Ash whenever he got the chance, and we never saw him release another Pokemon again... I think we can assume Paul had probably changed his training methods a bit, too.

So yeah. Paul's situation was a major, life-changing shock where he ended up eating his own words in more ways than one and his pride was effectively beaten all to hell. Trip by comparison is just being a pouty brat who realizes he's not a special snowflake and doesn't shit gold. I'm currently doubting Alder will even be addressed the next time we see the guy, and he'll be right back to defeating Ash for no reason as usual.

 

[Caseydia]

You know, Paul was already strong like hell. But he just wasn't ready for him. However, I don't think it bothered him as much as the thing with Trip.

If I admired someone from a small kid and found out that they were a perverted drunk ( No relations to Adeku), I would fell that would be worse. Especially if the person seems to get along with my rival. It's kind of like finding out that Santa isn't real when you haven't been told and you're already 14.

 

[CommanderPigg]

I died as soon as I read "special snowflake."

I will be fair though, in a way both situations are comparable. They are both tales of hero worship that led to disappointment. For Shooti, it was admiration for a guy he saw on T.V. and at a festival once, because he was "cool" and "strong." But for Paul, he was let down by his older brother. Someone in his family that he was obviously very close to for many years and looked up to...and to see him failing like that is much worse than seeing a change in character (while still proving to be strong in the end, like Adeku).

Now, a lot of people compare Shooti's experience with that of finding out the Santa's not real. I find that comparison to be fairly accurate, but not a powerful life changing event at all. Tell me the truth, how many people here have been critically affected by this revelation? Be honest here...

I find Paul's situation to be far more complex and interesting. Shooti doesn't share the same relationships or experiences with Adeku as Paul did with Reggie. And to be beaten by someone who had changed your brother's FUCKING TRAINING CLASS is a double slap to the face. To me, it would hurt more if a family member let me down than if my celebrity hero did because we just don't have the same connection. My family obviously had a larger impact on my life than they did.

Now, I understand that this situation is different with every person, but in this context, I don't think that Shooti's taken the brunt of his "mistake" yet. We don't know yet if this was the turning point in his training career, but from the looks of it, he's still pretty peachy to me.

 

[Peachy]

Paul loss was worse. Paul had a deep passion to beat Brandon that began with watching Reggie fall and accelerated when he found out that the trainer he thought was "pathetic" beat him. His loss changed his goal and mellowed his personality. After that battle he spent all of his energy training his pokemon for Brandon. This was promenent when Paul told Ash he was going to challenge Brandon after their final battle. DP128,131,132,& 186-188 are my favorite episodes with Paul. And they all came from DP128.

 

[LilyNadesico]

Personally, I felt more sorry for Trip, for having seen that the person he idolized wasn't what he imagined him to be. I can understand how he was disappointed, and why he would react like he did, and it was a great opportunity to show some development as a character. That was one of the most powerful moments in BW so far.

On the other hand, I enjoyed seeing Paul lose to Brandon, because I hate Paul's guts, and after seeing him being a jerk to everyone for the whole DP saga, I had irrevocably lost what little capacity for empathy I had left for him. Too bad his comeuppance didn't stick...

 

[Almonds]

Trip idolized someone famous and assumed that person would be like whatever his fantasies told him. He ASSUMED Alder to be like what he wanted, but got disappointed when Alder wasn't what he thought. Trip's just being shallow and assuming again that Alder is just a disappointment.
If I remember, a similar thing happened back in the Original Series, in an episode when Brock and Ash were more than dying to learn something from Elite4 Bruno. They did everything Bruno told them to, and when all their efforts were just to feed him, they were quite disappointed. I think it was because they expected a special kind of training or tips on battle from him but he was acting a bit stupid... However, after they saw Bruno's natural powers in controlling pokemon, they regained their respect. I guess Trip would change his mind once he gets to know Alder better.
And yeah, he needs to grow up. Alder's way too busy to remember every single promise he made to every single trainer. Trip's being a kid. (well, he is)

In the case of Paul, Brandon was someone who defeated his 'idolized' brother (I don't know if Paul idolized Reggie, but it seems to me he had a lot of respect for him before his journey). Brandon is also someone who lost to Ash. ASH, who Paul always looked down on. Paul losing to Brandon - the moment of loss - would have been a big blow to him because it means he couldn't win someone Ash won to. AND assuming Paul wanted to prove himself to his brother that he could beat someone that defeated Reggie, it would be quite a shocking loss.

I choose Paul because if I were in both situations, I'd totally cry and scream my lungs out in Paul's shoes.

 

[투 애니원]

It would have been Trip if the storyline was executed well.

 

[Caseydia]

Trip's was done well. It's just that he didn't have to battle Adeku just to make it well like Paul was. I rather not see him lose so badly. We already saw Ash battle hi. Trip doing it would have still been a fail rather he was battling seriously or not. But to answer the question, Adeku really made him lose all of hi respect for him. I don't think Paul lost his respect for Brandon just because he lost.

 

[GurahkWeavile]

It was Paul. I cannot even feel ANY sympathy or interest in Trip whatsoever. The guy just pisses me off. He wishes he was as awesome as Paul, but instead, he's so out of times and annoying, he should be in Pokemon Snap with his stupid webcam where he belongs!

 

[Madame Pika]

I think that it's Shinji is pretty clear, to be honest.

I could talk about how the build up and writing was so much better but in all honestly that simply isn't nessecary since even looking that the episodes that each event happened alone shows that Shinji had the more pitiable event. What proves this particually well is that within Shinji's episode he discovers that the trainer he thought nothing of had defeated Jindai. This bares far more of a likeness to Shuuti's event since for a while made Jindai look weak. However, it's more resonant since Reiji had lost to Jindai in the past. This alone is enough to make Shinji's lose to Jindai leave him confused and hurt. Shinji also has a clear emotional ride throughout this battle and it obviously effected him deeply. Shuuti's just took the idea on a very 'basic' level by comparison.

Of course with the rest of the series put in, Shinji's story is even more clearly powerful. We know that he's defeated Satoshi many times, how stotic he is and many other things. With Shuuti on the other hand, people were saying 'who doesn't admire the champion of the region.'