Who was the worst trainer for Ash to lose to in a Pokémon league? Cameron or Tobias?

[PrettySylveon]

I wanted to ask this question because I realized that I dislike both Cameron and Tobias equally. I also noticed that Cameron and Tobias are two character that were both horribly written and aren’t memorable in a good way.

Richie, Harrison, Tyson, and Alain don’t seem to be notorious like Cameron and Tobias are, so that’s why I excluded them from this poll.

The issue with Tobias was that he was more of a plot device than an actual character. He had no background, no personality, wasn’t introduced in a timely manner, was unjustifiably overpowered with two legendaries under his belt, and the show made it obvious that he only existed as a diabolus ex machina for Ash in the Sinnoh league.

The issue with Cameron was that while he was introduced in a timely manner, he embodied every single idiotic personality trait that Ash ever had. He was also a creator’s pet who seemed to never suffer any type of consequences for any of the idiotic decisions that he made (aside from him getting defeated by Virgil). In fact, he’s rewarded for his idiotic behavior.

People try to defend Cameron by saying that he’s just a clone of Kanto Ash, but Kanto Ash didn’t think that the Indigo league was in another region. Also, Ash didn’t bring only 5 Pokémon to a 6 on 6 battle. Kanto Ash even suffered realistic consequences for his laziness and got called out for relying too much on luck by Misty and Professor Oak.

My vote goes to Cameron.

As infuriating as it was for Tobias to have legendaries under his belt, at least Tobias wasn’t a brain dead idiot. Tobias also didn’t embody too many idiotic traits and wasn’t rewarded for being idiotic.

Tobias also actually won the Sinnoh league (despite Tobias having the unfair advantage of having legendaries, he still won the league fair and square because there were no rules against having legendaries) while Cameron justifiably lost the Unova League to Virgil who was more intelligent than he was. While I will begrudgingly admit that Cameron won the battle with Ash fair and square, Ash’s battle with Cameron still reeks of bullshit and bad writing.

Ash should have lost to Virgil. While it would have been still problematic for Ash to lose to a bunch of Eeveelutions, I would rather have him lose to them than to Cameron.

 

[BigDocFan]

Cameron definitely, the guy was an idiot, only bringing 5 Pokemon to a full battle, I doubt Tobias only brought Darkrai and Latios to his battle

 

[RetroPokeFan]

Cameron of course.

Going up against a guy who didn't even bring all of his Pokémon would indeed be more embarrassing than battling a no name, no personality trainer with a secret Action Replay cartridge.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Tobias was the best trainer for Ash to loose to.
Cameron 100%

 

[DawningWinds]

Tobias is barely a character, just a plot device-- but at least him beating Ash made sense. Cameron on the other hand. It's stretching my suspension of disbelief to accept that he was in the League in the first place, much less that he was able to make it to the top 4 before losing. Ash losing to him, even with BW having knocked his skill level several knotches from DP is just completely baffling, and I can't understand how anyone thought it would be a good decision. I don't think Ash should've won Unova the way BW wrote him, but Cameron was very much not the best person to knock him out.

 

[PrettySylveon]

I don't think Ash should've won Unova the way BW wrote him, but Cameron was very much not the best person to knock him out.

Look I can see why you wouldn’t believe that BW Ash deserved to win, but he was still a good trainer. BW Ash doesn’t get enough credit.

If this was the Indigo League that you were talking about, then I would agree with you 100%.

 

[DawningWinds]

Look I can see why you wouldn’t believe that BW Ash deserved to win, but he was still a good trainer. BW Ash doesn’t get enough credit.

If this was the Indigo League that you were talking about, then I would agree with you 100%.

He was a good trainer, yeah-- that's a big reason why Cameron is a terrible choice to beat him, because an idiot who doesn't understand the basics of Pokemon beating an actual good trainer who we've seen make pretty big accomplishments make Ash look really, really awful, when that's really not overall the case. But I don't think he was at his best in BW, and especially since we're now seeing that he was probably always only gonna get one League trophy, BW was just not the series for that. I do genuinely think he was a good trainer in BW, especially by the time of the League, but I don't feel he could really claim to be the absolute best.

 

[Sakuraa]

I don't see how this is even a question. Ash losing to a straight up moron who didn't even bring a full team the league, is infinitely worse to Ash losing to someone who had 2 legendries. In fact, I'd argue that Ash losing to someone with 2 legendries is the BEST possible loss for him. It's completely understandable that he'd lose there, whereas with Cameron, it was like Ash was handed a free win on a silver platter, but STILL lost.

 

[Handy Man]

Cameron by far.

• He thought you needed 7 badges to enter the league
• He thought the Unova league was going to be in Johto
• He missed the registration deadline and only got in with Ash’s help
• He camped outside and didn’t realize you could stay at a dorm room
• He thought full battles were 5v5
• He sacked Swanna against Pikachu and Ferrothorn against Pignite, effectively making his battle against Ash into a 3v6
• Cameron still won despite everything mentioned

Ash losing to Cameron is just straight up insulting. Anyone could lose to Tobias and his stupid strong team of legendaries, but only a moron could get away with losing to Cameron.

 

[PrettySylveon]

In fact, I'd argue that Ash losing to someone with 2 legendries is the BEST possible loss for him.

I really hated how Tobias had two legendaries, but seeing Ash take down a freakin’ Darkrai was awesome. It also showed how much Ash grew as a trainer.

 

[SamurottMan]

Cameron and it's not even close.

Yes, Tobias having 2 legendary Pokemon (and probably 4 more) is crazy, but the mystery around him and having that team was intimidating and interesting. As for his late introduction, I'm totally fine with the eventual League winner coming in from left field without any set up, like Virgil or Alain. Ash being the only trainer in the league to defeat Darkrai and tie with Latios is a big consolation prize for him, which didn't make the loss too harsh for me as a viewer.

His loss to Cameron on the other hand had no redeeming. Cameron didn't even need a 6th Pokemon to win the battle and Ash broke his pattern of doing better in each league.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Tobias was a bs excuse of a diabolous ex machina, but Cameron takes the cake because of how utterly incompetent he was, yet somehow still walked away with a win he didn't deserve.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Cameron was easily the worst defeat. People still complain about Tobias and I can understand to a degree. He came out of nowhere with at least two Legendary Pokemon on his team. He only existed to explain why Ash didn't win the Sinnoh League, but I was fine with that. Ideally, Ash vs. Paul should have been the finals of the Sinnoh League. Their rivalry was built up for years, so Ash finally defeating Paul with Infernape in the finals would have been fitting. If they couldn't or didn't want to do that, then Ash losing to Tobias was the next best option. Ash went down in a blaze of glory, basically became the honorary runner up of the Sinnoh League with being the only trainer who defeated Tobias' Darkrai and showed how much he had improved over the course of the series. It was a better way for Ash to lose than if a regular trainer with a regular team of Pokemon defeated him instead.

On the other hand, Cameron was far too stupid, annoying and unlikable. He was practically too stupid to live when he thought that the Unova League would be in Johto and thought that a full battle meant five-on-five. Even when he did battle, he wasn't particularly impressive. Despite being so stupid and incompetent, Cameron still defeated Ash. A lot of people weren't happy with the Unova League already with, but that defeat just made it more infamous. Despite some pretty terrible battles, particularly his battles with Trip, Elsa and Roxie, I don't think that BW Ash was really that bad in terms of skills. The real problem was just how his Pokemon were handled rather than Ash himself, but losing the Cameron doesn't really help with that impression either.

 

[PrettySylveon]

I don't see how this is even a question.

To clarify, I asked this because I did notice that both Cameron and Tobias are the most disliked out of all the trainers that beat Ash in an official league. They are even (rightly) listed on the Loathsome Characters Wiki (while the other trainers that beat Ash aren’t). I also had issues debating with myself on which loss was worse, thus prompting me to ask it here.

 

[R1ke]

Cameron was just painful man

 

[VetProf]

Despite losing to Tobias, Ash holds the award for being the only known trainer to have defeated both his Darkrai and his Latios. Not even the finalist that faced Tobias in the league accomplished anything close to what Ash did.

...I don't think anything good came out of Ash's loss against Cameron. At all.

 

[Max1996]

I don't think I need to go over why, but if it's between just Cameron and Tobias, it's absolutely Cameron, no contest at all.
Rather surprised someone actually voted Tobias in the poll.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Cameron sucks by virtue of being the last thing you want to have beat Ash. If you’re going to beat Ash in a league, then you make your opponent as threatening as possible. If Ash is going to lose, you have him go down fighting.

Cameron, meanwhile, is not threatening. He is an idiot. It feels less like a grand victory on his part and more like Cameron stumbled into victory. It’s anticlimacti.

 

[L-05308]

The Cameron battle makes me angry - people complain about how Ash had his whole team beaten by 5 Pokémon but he actually was beaten by 3 Pokémon!

At least the Roxie battle was upfront about it but the Caneron battle pretends Ferrothorn and Swanna are of any consequences, Cameron does that thing with his headband, which is supposed to be like, where comes up with a good idea and sends out Ferrothorn when it has a massive disadvantage and it is defeated in less than a minute before then sending out Samurott who’d have been the best choice before Ferrothorn. Then he does the exact same thing with Swanna.

 

[PrettySylveon]

I wanted to add on to my post that I now think that Cameron was a terrible trainer. Back in my old 2019 posts on here, I would defend Cameron because I felt sorry for him getting all the hate (& I also hated Richie…but now I think Richie and Cameron are both bad trainers).

It was only in 2020 when I started to realize what people on here were saying about Cameron: this guy is a not only a terrible character, but he’s a terrible trainer as well. Sure Cameron has strong Pokémon in his party, but being a good trainer is more than just having strong Pokémon. The trainer has to be cool along with the Pokémon. A trainer also has to be witty and to think logically when it comes to battling against other trainers. Cameron lacked common sense and basic logic, so it’s no wonder his win feels like bullshit. It’s also no wonder he’s so disliked in the Pokémon fan base.