Who was the worst trainer for Ash to lose to in a Pokémon league? Cameron or Tobias?

[Camille]

Cameron, no contest. It did irk me that Tobias was just a plot device with no backstory whatsoever, but Ash was still the only Trainer in the Sinnoh League who managed to actually beat two of Tobias' Pokemon, which is praiseworthy.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yeah, preaching to the choir here, but Cameron was the worse loss by an enormous margin.

Sure, if we look at Cameron and Tobias solely in terms of who's the better character, the former technically wins by default if only by virtue of the fact that he actually has a character whereas Tobias is just a plot device with no personality, but add in the way each one defeated Ash, and Tobias has far more redeeming qualities: sure, him bringing Legendaries without buildup is awful storytelling but at the very least it made Ash's loss to him dignified since he put up a much better fight against Tobias than every other challenger did despite the overwhelming loss. Also, they were freaking Legendaries, and Tobias came off as being a good trainer regardless of having Legendaries, so I can still imagine him giving at least a decent fight with a team of regular Pokemon. Cameron on the other hand was so insufferably incompetent that it's really difficult to believe he'd even have a team half as powerful as the one the writers opted to give him because there's no way someone of his skill level would have successfully trained them, particularly because over half the time he doesn't even use them effectively (RIP, Ferrothorn and Swanna). Cameron also constantly makes incredibly stupid mistakes that really should have cost him the match ten times over (not bringing a full team, sending out a Ferrothorn to battle a Pignite and a Swanna to battle a Pikachu, both in the same battle), and he essentially has no strategy in battle: literally all he ever does is telling his Pokemon to use this or that move to brute-force their way through the opponent. It was just beyond insulting for Ash to go down to someone as incompetent and undeserving of clearing the Gym Challenge as Cameron. Tbh, I feel like the reason Cameron was even given so many powerful and popular Pokemon like Hydreigon and Riolu/Lucario was in an attempt to make audiences like him, which evidently not only backfired spectacularly, but I feel like it only exacerbates people's dislike of him more. (At least it does in my case; my precious baby boy Hydreigon didn't deserve to be under the command of someone like this stupid kid)

As a final nail in the coffin for Cameron, his victory over Ash makes Virgil's existence feel incredibly baffling, because he seemed to be set up as Ash's League Kicker opponent (and Virgil did seem to give the impression of being quite skilled in battle in similar vein to former League rivals Harrison and Tyson) only for him to never even face Ash in battle at all. I've seen some people try to defend this decision by claiming that Ash losing to a team of Eeveelutions wouldn't look as impressive as losing to a team consisting of Hydreigon and Lucario, but Cameron was just so incompetent that whatever "sheer power" Hydreigon and Lucario had just didn't make up for how badly their trainer performed throughout, so in the end Ash looks incredibly weak by losing to Cameron regardless, probably much more so than he would've by losing to someone that was actually competent despite their lack of obvious powerhouses on their team, so I have no idea why this counter-argument even exists at all. Besides, the Eeveelutions can totally be formidable opponents on their own right despite their small statures, as they are fully evolved Pokemon, and the fact that they make such a type-diverse team and have different battle styles from one another means that it's really not that hard to imagine them keeping Ash on his toes with the sheer variety of elemental powers and versatility he'd be up against, especially at the start of the battle where he wouldn't even know which lineup of Eeveelutions he'd be facing.

 

[Max1996]

my precious baby boy Hydreigon didn't deserve to be under the command of someone like this stupid kid

I can say the exact same about Lucario as well, to be honest.

 

[P_S_B]

The Tobias loss, while it sucked at least had the consolation prize of Ash being the only one to defeat Darkrai. The only reason Ash didn't get Top 2 is because he was matched up with Tobias before the final, he was clearly the second strongest trainer there after Tobias.

Cameron on the other hand was an actual complete moron and the fact that Ash lost to him was straight up the writer giving two middle fingers to the audience. I refuse to believe anyone on staff genuinely believed anyone could possibly enjoy watching BW Ash lose to the only character in the series even dumber than him. The fact that Cameron did not appear with the other Unova rivals cameo tells me that the staff now realize that nobody ever wants to see him again.

 

[Turbo]

They kinda have the opposite/mirrored problem to me

Tobias the concept of this random unbeatable trainer showing up with a team of legendaries is bad
But the battle and execution was decent/good
Sceptile and Pikachu shined but Swellow Torkoal and them suffered and this was a way worse case of one shots to me

Cameron is another league friend that got the better of him like a Tyson or Harrison to show that Ash despite growth isn’t the best yet is normal and kind of good
But the battle or the execution was bad/decent
Pignite and Pikachu shined but the battle was a bunch of this Pokémon dominates 2 or more Pokémon and the rest suffer
And this was a way worse instance of a Lucario taking too much damage to me

As for the actual trainers, Cameron was way more of a character than Tobias so Ash at least lost to a character
But Cameron never felt like he was better than Ash ex: his stupid moments whereas Tobias wasn’t a character but he was an obstacle which how he was presented made sense Ash lost to him

Tobias felt so much like a plot device just to make Ash lose
Cameron they decided to do a joke battle as Ash’s climax
The writers in both instances disrespected Ash but one is like them slapping you in the face and the other is like them laughing in your face

So personally Tobias was worse, he was from his conception made to make Ash lose which will always rub me the wrong way as they really didn’t even give me false hope
Whereas Cameron at least kept the possibility of Ash beating him and I still get the idea that Ash could of also have won here as I think it’s possible he could of beaten Virgil just as he was really close to beating Cameron

Plus the legendary thing still bothers me to this day
And I personally (I know most can’t) can excuse the 6v5 as it was intended for laughs and not disrespect (a joke that went too far)

 

[Imtnt]

How no one said Trip... in the junior cup it was so humiliating.... with type advantage and a history of loosing with Pikachu to that rude 5-lvl-or-so Snivy... rrr..

Tobias was overpowered so as a trainer its not like it was any bad. Just as a realy bad written situation, even more when Tobias just went underground in the anime after that.. like he wasnt exist. On the other hand you got Trip, Cameron, Ritchie.. Ash lost there realy badly, as thwy were trainers he had to win against.

 

[DawningWinds]

How no one said Trip... in the junior cup it was so humiliating.... with type advantage and a history of loosing with Pikachu to that rude 5-lvl-or-so Snivy... rrr..

Tobias was overpowered so as a trainer its not like it was any bad. Just as a realy bad written situation, even more when Tobias just went underground in the anime after that.. like he wasnt exist. On the other hand you got Trip, Cameron, Ritchie.. Ash lost there realy badly, as thwy were trainers he had to win against.

The Junior Cup wasn't an official league though, just a tournament-- Ash didn't lose to Trip in the league, so he definitionally can't be the worst league kicker. Plus the question is specifically about Tobias or Cameron, rather than any of the other League kickers.

 

[jbmasta]

I really hated how Tobias had two legendaries, but seeing Ash take down a freakin’ Darkrai was awesome. It also showed how much Ash grew as a trainer.

Ash being the only trainer to knock out any of Tobias's pokemon at all, after Darkrai was infamous for sweeping the competition before that point. Getting a tie against Latios as well. For a plot device he at least gave Ash a run for his pokedollars.

 

[pharaohyami5000]

Cameron. Since the first meeting, he is scatter brained all the way to his last appearance. He has formidable Pokemon due to his high luck yet low focus, which seem to be a pretty common favorite for the "high class". What would I kill for Ash to beat Cameron throughout Journeys. Lucario V Lucario.

Tobias I can accept as he was the mysterious strong Darkrai Trainer built up since the Sinnoh League started. I would have liked Ash to at least expose his full team, but I guess this will be a long list of secrets that will stay a secret.

Reflecting on Ash VS Cameron in the Unova League, it's Cameron's Hydreigon, Samurott, Swanna, Ferrothorn, and Riolu/Lucario VS Ash's Pikachu, Oshawott, Boldore, Pignite, Snivy, and Ufezant. Replace any of Ash's current team with his other 4 Pokemon (besides Pikachu) which are Palpitoad, Scraggy, Leavanny, and Krookodile, who would be the preferred 6?

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

The true answer is Alain. The plot was building up to Ash beating Alain. Don’t give me the “MCX is way too strong for AG” crap

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Reflecting on Ash VS Cameron in the Unova League, it's Cameron's Hydreigon, Samurott, Swanna, Ferrothorn, and Riolu/Lucario VS Ash's Pikachu, Oshawott, Boldore, Pignite, Snivy, and Ufezant. Replace any of Ash's current team with his other 4 Pokemon (besides Pikachu) which are Palpitoad, Scraggy, Leavanny, and Krookodile, who would be the preferred 6?

Well, I'd say that the lineup with the biggest likelihood to give Ash a win over Cameron would have been Pikachu, Pignite, Krookodile, Palpitoad, Leavanny, and Snivy.

Krookodile is self-explanatory, as he is Ash's strongest Unova mon besides the omnipresent Pikachu. That said, Krookodile does have a pretty bad matchup against most of Cameron's Pokemon, so the only thing I can realistically see him beating is Hydreigon, and even that's a little debatable.

Leavanny is Ash's third strongest Unova mon after Krookodile and Pignite, and in the previous round gave a fully evolved Fighting-type a lot of trouble, so I can see him causing enough trouble for Riolu/Lucario for at the very least another team member to finish it off. Leavanny could also put in work against Hydreigon and/or Samurott.

Palpitoad is there as a stronger and sturdier alternative to Oshawott with better coverage. Palpitoad unfortunately can't do a whole lot to Cameron's team (in fact, Water-types are pretty much hard-countered by Cameron's lineup unless they carry Ice moves for Hydreigon, which neither of Ash's Unova Waters had), but it's safe to say he would've accomplish more than Oshawott and Boldore.

Pignite knocked out two of Cameron's Pokemon and in general was Ash's second strongest Unova mon after Krookodile, so I see no reason to remove him from the fight.

Snivy may also sound weird to keep, but she actually performed really well despite ultimately not getting any knockouts: she got extremely close to beating a Riolu that had proven itself skilled enough to defeat a fully-evolved Flying-type and would've won outright had her opponent not gotten that lucky Evolution Ex Machina. Yeah, girl earned her place in that lineup. And hey, if she and Leavanny double-team the OP jackal, maybe they can pull off a win against it in tandem.

In the end, it's mainly Boldore, Oshawott, and Unfezant who could've been replaced, as they were all on the weaker side, plus the former two had horrible matchups against Cameron's team, so even if they didn't have a jobber problem it's unlikely they would've fared much better. Unfezant could have been a good choice if she had recieved more training... I feel so bad for this poor bird.

Finally, there's Scraggy, who I don't think would've been a good choice here, as he was the weakest of the Unova mons, so it's highly unlikely that he would've fared any better than Boldore, Oshawott, or Unfezant did.

I know people love to lambast Ash for not using a better lineup against Cameron, but the most likely reason Ash used the team that he used is because Krookodile, Leavanny, and Palpitoad were still recovering from the battle against Stephan, so his options were limited.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ash defeating a Darkrai is one of his greatest achievements as a trainer,then on top of that Ash used killer instinct by turning his hat backwards and tying to Tobias's Latios.So while this loss was a punch to the gut of the fans at the same time it was a spectacle.

Losing to Cameron was just as bad as losing to Trip's level 5 Snivy and Ritchie at the Kanto League.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Cameron, the ultimate insult to both him & for all viewers through that point.

I think Tobias is more of a robot than Cameron as a character, but he's far more of a true rival and intimidating opponent for Ash than Cameron, who he should have defeated with ease but decided to hit the idiot stick on in BW by that point.

 

[R.O.B.]

Narratively? Tobias
In-universe? Cameron

 

[Poke Trey]

Both, put if you want me to pick 1... Cameron.

 

[DigitalGen6]

Both, I was gonna vote Cameron but picked Tobias by mistake
Cameron = worst rival ever (same reason why others hate him), one of the reasons I dislike the BW Anime

 

[Johtoo]

I never understood why Ash's loss against Tobias was looked down upon. I thought Tobias was inserted to prove that Ash was so strong in Sinnoh that the only person who could realistically beat him would be a trainer who stacked up legendary Pokemon.

 

[DigitalGen6]

Idk. I haven’t really gotten that far in the series, I have not watched much of it. I only know Tobias had legendaries and Ash lost to him in the Lily of the Valley.

 

[Nichole the Otter]

I never understood why Ash's loss against Tobias was looked down upon. I thought Tobias was inserted to prove that Ash was so strong in Sinnoh that the only person who could realistically beat him would be a trainer who stacked up legendary Pokemon.

It was because people call him out as a cheater for using a legendary-only team.

 

[Daren]

I never understood why Ash's loss against Tobias was looked down upon. I thought Tobias was inserted to prove that Ash was so strong in Sinnoh that the only person who could realistically beat him would be a trainer who stacked up legendary Pokemon.

We already know Ash wasn't that strong--he lost to Kenny right before the league, remember--and while he lost a close match with the winner in AG, in DP he got crushed so badly it showed he wasn't actually that good a trainer; there are complete randos that can brush him off easily.
Not to mention the optics of "wow, the staff don't care about Ash at all if they'll end his run on this series like that."