Who were the "Sinnoh people" and why does this mean so much to Volo?

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Volo says that he has the "blood of the Sinnoh people". Is this the same as the Celestica people? The real ones anyway, since we know the Diamond and Pearl clans call themselves Celestica after an earlier civilization that existed in Hisui, the one the old verses are about and that Cogita's stories are passed down from.

What did happen to them? It's really murky but somehow they were driven out of Hisui, seemingly not by any other humans because the time frame suggests that everyone else came much later, so possibly by a natural disaster? They already feared Giratina before their civilization fell, if what Volo tells us about the placement of the statue is correct, so it's unlikely to have been that. I've seen it theorized that they lost Arceus's favor, or at least believed they had, either of which would have fueled Volo's demand for answers.

But he doesn't even say he's one of them. He says he has their blood, that he's descended from them. He's still a young man, and they vanished at least a thousand years ago (no I don't buy the theory that he's immortal--he'd have a hell of a lot more answers if he was). A heritage means a lot to people, but this is a culture that simply hasn't existed since long before he was born. Even if it had continued (as it probably did in the Sinjoh region), it wouldn't be anything like it was then. So why does a past he wasn't part of, a people he's only vaguely related to, drive his every action and fuel his need for answers?

I suppose the closest I can come up with is that his sense of abandonment (referring to Giratina as an "unwanted child" sure seems like projection to me, combined with insisting that he's alone in the world despite having pokemon who love him and a bunch of people who seem to like him) cause him to cling to anything that gave him a sense of purpose or belonging, and if he was a Celestica/Sinnoh, then it meant he belonged in Hisui more than anyone else. "Outsider" seems to be his greatest insult for you, after all, and if he had always felt so removed and alone then surely he'd seen himself as an outsider quite often, but as part of an ancient bloodline, it made everyone else outsiders (well, except Cogita, who even if she isn't immortal is still the only other Celestica we see).

Well, that would explain his motivations anyway, but it still doesn't really answer who they were or why they vanished or if these two names really do refer to the same group. Any ideas?

 

[lisianthus]

The Ainu of Hokkaido (and Sakhalin), in modern-day Japan and Russia, are the original people of Sinnoh/Hokkaido/Hisui/Ezo. Hisui/Ezo eventually became known as Sinnoh/Hokkaido, and the native, non-Yamato inhabitants (think the First Nations of Canada) of those lands are the Ainu people.

I can only really provide a real-world answer, because I like learning about Japanese history, but if you were looking for anything like that, there you go..?

 

[Flannery]

I think Lisianthus nailed it right on the head. I'm pretty sure the entire point of Volo calling himself a member of the Sinnoh people is probably a connection to the real world Ainu and many other native peoples of Japan who are often overlooked or grouped together with the Ainu.
Considering that Volo is a blonde-haired golden-eyed worshipper of the almighty god but demonstrating some slightly more gnostic perspectives... I'd wager a 2nd guess at him being the in-universe equivalent of Russian. This is especially likely due to the role Russia had on that part of Japan back in the day and how they brought Orthodox Christianity to the area. By calling himself as having the blood of the Sinnoh people, Volo could be referring to himself as the chosen people of Arceus or, in other words, true believers. He's basically saying, "I have been following the almighty Sinnoh my entire life in the correct way unlike these Celesticans who merely adopted worship of the Almighty Sinnoh."
There's also the third possible implication that either Arceus used to be human and ascended to its status or directly created the people Volo came from in a more specific manner from the rest of people... sort of like the gap between humans and angels in Christian mythology.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

The Ainu of Hokkaido (and Sakhalin), in modern-day Japan and Russia, are the original people of Sinnoh/Hokkaido/Hisui/Ezo. Hisui/Ezo eventually became known as Sinnoh/Hokkaido, and the native, non-Yamato inhabitants (think the First Nations of Canada) of those lands are the Ainu people.

I can only really provide a real-world answer, because I like learning about Japanese history, but if you were looking for anything like that, there you go..?

Aren't the Diamond and Pearl clans more analogous to the Ainu?

I think Lisianthus nailed it right on the head. I'm pretty sure the entire point of Volo calling himself a member of the Sinnoh people is probably a connection to the real world Ainu and many other native peoples of Japan who are often overlooked or grouped together with the Ainu.
Considering that Volo is a blonde-haired golden-eyed worshipper of the almighty god but demonstrating some slightly more gnostic perspectives... I'd wager a 2nd guess at him being the in-universe equivalent of Russian. This is especially likely due to the role Russia had on that part of Japan back in the day and how they brought Orthodox Christianity to the area. By calling himself as having the blood of the Sinnoh people, Volo could be referring to himself as the chosen people of Arceus or, in other words, true believers. He's basically saying, "I have been following the almighty Sinnoh my entire life in the correct way unlike these Celesticans who merely adopted worship of the Almighty Sinnoh."
There's also the third possible implication that either Arceus used to be human and ascended to its status or directly created the people Volo came from in a more specific manner from the rest of people... sort of like the gap between humans and angels in Christian mythology.

I was reading a different theory about the influences behind the Celestica, and it's basically from a theory that the ancient Greeks had made it to Japan (though the essay posits that this is unlikely and that Greek influence would have come more indirectly via trade routes with Korea)
The Inspiration for Ancient Greeks in Hisui (?) - PokeCodex, orphan_account - Pocket Monsters | Pokemon - All Media Types [Archive of Our Own] It's on a fanfic site but it's an essay about "Hōryū-ji theory"

Though going back to your other point about "many other native peoples of Japan", it's odd that we only get one mission that even SUGGESTS there were other groups there that weren't Celestica or the two clans, and that's whoever the people in the ice fields were from the Froslass mission. The guy who gives you the mission even looks more properly northern than anybody from the other groups.

 

[c la fet]

Though going back to your other point about "many other native peoples of Japan", it's odd that we only get one mission that even SUGGESTS there were other groups there that weren't Celestica or the two clans, and that's whoever the people in the ice fields were from the Froslass mission. The guy who gives you the mission even looks more properly northern than anybody from the other groups.

What if Volo's people was inspired by the Jomon people ?

 

[Emmy]

Considering Pokémon merely takes inspiration from the real world and not directly correlates to it 1:1, it may be a fool's errand to try and narrow down Volo's ancestry. But since Sinnoh roughly corresponds to not just Hokkaido but also parts of Sakhalin and Kunashir, Volo could very well be a Russian-Ainu, a Nivkh, an Orok or just descended from some pre-historic humans that lived on those islands.

So why does a past he wasn't part of, a people he's only vaguely related to, drive his every action and fuel his need for answers?

Not to get too real, but I have been reading psychology papers recently based on the people involved in the talks of succession in my country and you would be surprised how deep the question of one's identity - or an "awareness of one's difference" can cut into a person's thoughts and actions, from the overt and extreme to just the banal uses of words like "we" and "they" in our everyday lives.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

He's an interesting character for sure. I just wish we had more information on the people he prizes so highly. Even Cogita, implied to be part of them (though her dialogue seems to both support AND contradict it which is incredibly bizarre), seems to know very little about them, and she's the regional authority and most likely founder of Celestic Town.

 

[Emelie]

In the Japanese version the Celestica are called Kannagi which is a real term for a Shinto shaman or a gender neutral term for a miko. This is a religious reference which the English version had to censor because they aren't allowed to reference religion.

There is some religious censorship in the original Diamond and Pearl as well since Cynthia asks you to deliver an old charm to her grandmother which is actually an ancient omamori (an amulet commonly sold at Shinto shrines). Note how the grandmother survives Team Galactic's attack possibly due to Cynthia and their ancestors' spiritual protection. The Sinjoh ruins are also called the Shinto ruins in the Japanese version, where a hiker (who is believed to be Volo as an old man) lives.

The ice-type gym leader Wulfric from XY is called Urup in the Japanese version so the Ainu canonically exists in the Pokemon world. I would guess he is supposed to represent the Ainu from the Kuril Islands since there is an island called Urup. Note how he has an ancestor in the Pearl clan which is Gaeric.

Unsure if the rest of the Pearl clan are Ainu since they weren't originally from Sinnoh/Hisui. I don't think being of a certain race is a requirement to join since some American character like Ingo were accepted.

Since Archie's ancestor was the founder of the clan maybe they are from the islands/water routes of Hoenn which were based of Okinawa? Could be worth noting that the natives of Okinawa have also been opressed by the Japanese. In the Manaphy movie there is a (fictional) people called the People of the Water. May is one of them and if the theory that Irida is related to her is true, then she might be related to them as well.

So basically Celestica/Kannagi is a religion and the Ancient Sinnoh people are not necessarily believers of it. But some might have converted (or been forcefully assimilated?) by the presumably Japanese/Wajin people from Johto who came to the Sinjoh/Shinto ruins.

By the way they might have referenced the Russo-Japanese war in DP with the Battle Area and the Survival Area (based of Sakhalin island). Volo has a Russian name according to the artbook so perhaps he is a Russian Ainu trying to recreate the world to prevent the war from ever happening? Note how some Russian Ainu were assimilated and had to change their Ainu names to Russian ones.

 

[c la fet]

Volo has a Russian name according to the artbook so perhaps he is a Russian Ainu trying to recreate the world to prevent the war from ever happening?

It's not written that he has a russian name, it's written "podsol/patosoru (sunflower ?) uniform version". I believe it was the placeholder name of the Gingko Guild.
His brooch kinda looks like a sunflower, though.

 

[Emelie]

It's not written that he has a russian name, it's written "podsol/patosoru (sunflower ?) uniform version". I believe it was the placeholder name of the Gingko Guild.
His brooch kinda looks like a sunflower, though.

I think they are trying to imply that this is the uniform version of him since he is not in his Sinnoh outfit. But who knows lol? I suppose the guild could also be Russian and from the Battle Area/Survival Area. But that would also be suspicious since that means the guild came from an area which in the Hisui timeline is most likely fighting a war.

Sunflower being his real name makes sense since most villains are named after flowers. I think Shirona (Cynthia's Japanese name) is also a flower reference.

 

[Arceusgjengen]

I reckon the Sinnoh folks were the original Celestica people

 

[c la fet]

After checking the japanese version, I've learnt that Celestica is called Kaminagi in japanese. I suppose it comes from Kannagi (Celestic Town) and maybe Kami or Kamui. That would mean the Celestica People could be inspired by the Jōmon, the Yayoi and the Ainu at the same time.
I've also learnt that, nowadays, the Ainu's religion is different from the original one (I think it's called Koshinto). That could explain why the DP clans are different from the Celestica People.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Oh interesting. Though I wonder why they would draw so much from ancient Greece in the design.

 

[c la fet]

I think it's because they wanted to keep a sense of continuity between DP, with the Spear Pillar (and the Arceus Movie, but I'm not so sure about this one), and PLA.
Or to avoid controversies ?
It seems like they weren't trying to be too realistic, Palina is inspired by an ama diver but, correct me if I'm wrong, ainu women weren't ama divers.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Not really sure what would be controversial.

 

[c la fet]

Not really sure what would be controversial.

I think it's already controversial in some circles
By mixing all these different cultures together, the game feels less realistic. I think they were trying to prevent people from taking their game too literally but as you can see, if it was their intent, they didn't really succeed.
(I'm thinking it's more a matter of continuity with the DP games)

 

[Emmy]

I think it's already controversial in some circles

I fail to see there being controversy when the person complaining admits to not being part of the any of the involved demographics.

This is exactly like what happened the other day with the Fate community. Some foreigners got their panties in a twist that the latest Fate event involved a Heroic Spirit from Aboriginal legend and "weren't showing proper respect" or some nonsense, only for some actual Aboriginal people to have to tell them to STFU because they loved seeing themselves be represented in a franchise they enjoy.

 

[c la fet]

I fail to see there being controversy when the person complaining admits to not being part of the any of the involved demographics.

This is exactly like what happened the other day with the Fate community. Some foreigners got their panties in a twist that the latest Fate event involved a Heroic Spirit from Aboriginal legend and "weren't showing proper respect" or some nonsense, only for some actual Aboriginal people to have to tell them to STFU because they loved seeing themselves be represented in a franchise they enjoy.

It's not only foreigners

Spoiler

Anyway I don't think this was really the reason they drew inspiration from ancient Greece, I was only hypothesizing

 

[Emmy]

It's not only foreigners

Spoiler

Lol, what gave it away that the Sinnoh People aren't supposed to look 1:1 to the Ainu, the fact that Lian wears an American Stetson perhaps?

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

It's also not meant to be an exact one to one though too. It's meant to more of be inspired by real events, not represent them directly.

God this is just gonna get so much worse if they do a Unova game because Unovan history is absolutely nothing like real American history and people will still expect it must be and insist on affixing real world baggage to it.