Why are Ash's League rivals so last minute?

[matt0044]

Like... I don't hate them completely. If Ash has to lose, I prefer that he goes down swinging.

However, one thing that make Cameron (yes, HIM) and Alain stand out among them is how they are introduced well before the League begins. I feel like this is how it should be done rather than shoehorning a random League participant like Tobias to transparently bump out Ash.

Hell, with Cameron, we had Virgil who was initially though to the League rival so I can appreciate the misdirection if nothing else. This is something that could've been done with Johto through Sinnoh.

When building up to a tournament arc, you wanna keep some form of suspense. But who do you think is going to bring Ash down in the Sinnoh League? Barry, Paul or that one randy with a Darkrai?

And I get that it makes sense that Ash would face the more tougher challengers at the League and it's "realistic" in the sense that you won't always win, being a small fish in a huge lake as it were.

Yet it can feel... contrived when you look at it from a more out-of-universe narrative stance. As a writer, I'd find it more fulfilling if an established (and maybe developed) characters from various episodes before hand were the one to win against Ash because we've gotten to know them along with our designated main characters.

Like... suppose Wally appeared ahead of time in certain AG episodes, building him up as the underdog compared to Ash. A good end for his character arc would be to face Ash close to the finals and win. It'd also make for drama as we'd want our hero to win but also Wally after we've known him as the one struggling the most. Maybe have Harrison appear early as well.

It's just that when a new character just so happens to appear at the League and connects with Ash, I roll my eyes and think, "Gee, I wonder who Ash is gonna lose to."

 

[Hidden Mew]

While introducing League rivals ahead of time can potentially flesh them out as characters and make Ash's defeats more unexpected compared to rivals introduced just around the time the League starts, there's also the issue of backlash for said defeats. Because Alain was already established and Ash already lost to him twice, a lot of people took it as signs for Ash to win in the Kalos League. It wasn't the only reason why fans thought that he'd win, but it was a factor. The backlash for the Kalos League was pretty noticeable, although it quickly calmed down after just a couple of weeks or so.

The backlash for the Unova League wasn't quite as bad, but that was mainly due to how a lot of people didn't care for the battles in the series and/or how Ash was handled in general. While losing to a trainer like Cameron was bad in a sense, getting to the Top 8 was the best Ash could have reasonably done during that series. Anything higher than that would have been unbelievable.

There are advantages with establishing Ash's League rivals ahead of time, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure if it would drastically improve the League. Most fans want to see Ash win a League and losing to a League rival, either being well established or introduced just when the League started, probably wouldn't change anything.

 

[Almonds]

I do agree that Virgil shouldn't have been a league rival. A somewhat recurring NPC to promote Eeveelutions would have been enough. A league rival that doesn't even battles Ash was a big mistake that made him pointless.

And Tobias is more of a problem of not only being introduced at the last minute, but also having a Darkrai.

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

Because the writers use them as back-ups since either the well-developed trainer or the back-up beats him, this for 6 generations long (Technically, Alain is used as a back-up too because him competing in the League was hinted at the very end, he was MEANT to defeat Ash). If Cameron hadn't beaten Ash, Virgil would have beaten him because he's the ultimate back-up. Simple as that. The writers will NEVER make Ash lose to a random trainer.

 

[Matleo]

generation 5 anime was a little disapoiting , Unova rival that was build up , should have gotten a 6 vs 6 or 3vs 3 atleast.
But maybe they wanted to show how life is.
Ash final battle lost with 5 pokemon... a little lame.
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interesting would be to meet old rivals in new regions with other 5 pokemon then they had before.
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If there will be 5 more generation then I think we will then get a "extra one" to have a full pokemon world league anime where ash will met past rivals and rebattle them, but this needs time, they want to show that the way to becoming a master is long and hard. Maybe everyone that was in the top 16 of a regular league could compete in a world tournament. ( Gary- I'm back)

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

And Tobias is more of a problem of not only being introduced at the last minute, but also having a Darkrai.

I recall hearing that Ash was originally planned to win the Sinnoh League, but when those plans were changed, they wrote Tobias in an insurmountable wall to block Ash's path. They needed someone insanely good to stop him, seeing how Ash was at the top of his game at the Sinnoh League, so they wrote in an out-of-nowhere guy with Legendaries.

If Cameron hadn't beaten Ash, Virgil would have beaten him because he's the ultimate back-up. Simple as that. The writers will NEVER make Ash lose to a random trainer.

Ash losing to Virgil would've at least made way more sense and been much more acceptable than him losing to an idiot like Cameron, who won even despite having only five Pokémon against Ash's six, just because he happened to get a Deus ex Machina evolution just when he needed it. (Also, his Riolu was way too strong for being a baby Pokémon.)

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

Ash losing to Virgil would've at least made way more sense and been much more acceptable than him losing to an idiot like Cameron, who won even despite having only five Pokémon against Ash's six, just because he happened to get a Deus ex Machina evolution just when he needed it. (Also, his Riolu was way too strong for being a baby Pokémon.)

It's not a matter of acceptability (Tobias was way more ridiculous than Cameron BTW), but a matter of Ash being trapped in this infinite loop of him being meant to be defeated by a figure who's not unfamiliar.

 

[matt0044]

The writers will NEVER make Ash lose to a random trainer.

But they are random in the sense that they just so happen to appear at the league itself, practically broadcasting their status as "Designated winner over Ash." At least BW gave us Cameron, Stephen and Virgil to make us guess.

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

But they are random in the sense that they just so happen to appear at the league itself, practically broadcasting their status as "Designated winner over Ash."

And I simply don't like that idea. It gives me the impression that a League consists of 4 participants and not 64. Pokemon Leagues feel extremely shallow, and it shouldn't be, especially since the viewer has to wait 3 years for the most significant arc of Pokemon anime

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

A lot of strong trainers meet at big tournaments so it makes sense.

@Diamond & Pearl I think that issue is more an issue of them not showing off enough characters and battles.

 

[Rajas20]

The only rival who beat Ash in a league that was properly introduced is Alain. The rest were jokes at best, Cameron the worst because he was introduced sort of earlier than the rest but was shown as a complete joke, his battle with Ash was a complete joke and he won as well with five Pokemon. The most embarrassing thing the writers ever did in the anime to this point.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

The only rival who beat Ash in a league that was properly introduced is Alain. The rest were jokes at best, Cameron the worst because he was introduced sort of earlier than the rest but was shown as a complete joke, his battle with Ash was a complete joke and he won as well with five Pokemon. The most embarrassing thing the writers ever did in the anime to this point.

Amen to that.

 

[matt0044]

And I simply don't like that idea. It gives me the impression that a League consists of 4 participants and not 64. Pokemon Leagues feel extremely shallow, and it shouldn't be, especially since the viewer has to wait 3 years for the most significant arc of Pokemon anime

And I get it but when in a work of fiction, usually following the traditional three-act structure, this sort of thing where a random participant happens to be the guy who does Ash in reeks of being an Asspull. It feels... cheap like the writers just needed a new character to do the job, made a basic design and that's all she wrote.

It might be more like real life but we don't always go to fiction for a perfect mirror of our cruel unforgiving reality so railroading a new character into the plot in what's essentially the saga's third act doesn't feel... right.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Because they tend to be introduced solely to beat Ash.

 

[Almonds]

The only rival who beat Ash in a league that was properly introduced is Alain. The rest were jokes at best, Cameron the worst because he was introduced sort of earlier than the rest but was shown as a complete joke, his battle with Ash was a complete joke and he won as well with five Pokemon. The most embarrassing thing the writers ever did in the anime to this point.

Ah, I had forgotten about that. While the rest of Tobias's pokemon is unknown, Cameron clearly broke the rules by bringing five pokemon to a full six-on-six battle; that should have gotten him disqualified. And they made Ash lose to him.

*facepalm*

 

[matt0044]

Because they tend to be introduced solely to beat Ash.

Okay but as I said in my post, it shouldn't feel like the case.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ah, I had forgotten about that. While the rest of Tobias's pokemon is unknown, Cameron clearly broke the rules by bringing five pokemon to a full six-on-six battle; that should have gotten him disqualified. And they made Ash lose to him.

*facepalm*

As bad as it was for Cameron to be that stupid, I don't know if bringing five Pokemon to a full battle is something that would get anyone disqualified. A full battle does obviously mean you'd need to bring six Pokemon, but they never indicated that bringing less than six was breaking the rules. If he went off to get a sixth Pokemon in the middle of the battle, much like how Ash had to leave to get another Pokemon for his Gym match against Elesa, then that would be different. Leaving the battlefield because you didn't bring enough Pokemon is definitely worth disqualifying a trainer instead of just using five Pokemon as opposed to six for a full battle.

 

[SinnohEevee]

As bad as it was for Cameron to be that stupid, I don't know if bringing five Pokemon to a full battle is something that would get anyone disqualified. A full battle does obviously mean you'd need to bring six Pokemon, but they never indicated that bringing less than six was breaking the rules. If he went off to get a sixth Pokemon in the middle of the battle, much like how Ash had to leave to get another Pokemon for his Gym match against Elesa, then that would be different. Leaving the battlefield because you didn't bring enough Pokemon is definitely worth disqualifying a trainer instead of just using five Pokemon as opposed to six for a full battle.

Was it ever specified you would get disqualified if you don't bring in 6 Pokémon?

With that said, making Ash lose to that idiot Cameron in a 6-5 was a big insult. I dunno what they were thinking, maybe to send a message that Ash is a noob and will never win. I would rather watch a Garbodor than watch this match again.

 

[EscLucy]

I agree with Sinnoh - to be honest Ash is a noob and this shows this. It made me so mad and when Riolu evolved I was like, this is it he is going to get absolutely destroyed. It's really annoying. I mean honestly, let's have Dawn as the main protagonist already people!! And yes there is no penalty and I wouldn't know why there should be, it's an own trainer's fault for forgetting one mon and therefore disqualifying them wouldn't make a difference, it would teach them a lesson because they are on the backfoot. Also, it wouldn't be fair because some trainers might be like "I wanna see if I can win in hard mode" lol. In the games, you can enter a 1v1 that's meant to be 6 on 6 with 5 if you wish to. Whilst, I know anime and game aren't the same that does carry some weight. Agreed with Hidden that leaving to get another is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with not having enough if you're good enough maybe they won't realize you have 5 i.e. Tobias he might've only had 2. We simply don't know.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Inb4 Ash loses to Bewear with no Trainer.