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Why are Ash's League rivals so last minute?

Agreed. Most of Ash's friends have lost to an E4 member or the Champion. I think Ash would be pleased he made it that far tbh.

On the note about Ash losing every league, I don't think they want to convey that message frankly. The theme tunes are all about resilience, determination, keep trying etc. and I don't think they would go back on that. This is a kids show and they want to help kids do well. That is quite depressing and I think they are also just doing it for money so the seasons keep going.
 
I don't think the "underdog" narrative really operates, or rather the anime writers might not use it in such a way - since the underdog vanquishing over Ash might create a more negative narrative (that Ash has lost some of his skill to be defeated by someone he used to have the upper hand over, or that he was careless in his training not to notice this character climb up in the ranks). This narrative was captured quite well, and delivered quite well when Ash notices despite Sawyer's victory over Wulfric, he cannot win. Therefore, it is a harsh moment of truth conveyed in that moment during the match that Ash has slipped, that he was complacent in regards to Sawyer, complacent in regards to himself and now he desperately needs to hone his skills, to re-focus. This could be a great narrative - as long as the League doesn't happen at the end of the series, or near the end. If it's near the end, it may not be resolved like it was with the aforementioned scenario in XY and therefore would put the series where that league was in on a fairly low note. If it's not at the end (such as, say Advanced Generation), it could lead to a re-focus and a greater success at a different sort of trainer competition, finishing on a high note.

I also consider personal victories to be quite important; Ash has these main rivals who the writers have created a whole narrative around - that Ash struggles against them, or is often defeated by them, only for his determination and resolve to win in the end, for him to be victorious against them in the League. This is important as a message to children that it's the visible struggles you have throughout your journeys that you can overcome - the very personal ones, that affect you on an individual ones. While the primary goal in the region is aimed towards the League, it's not personalised like these rivalries and therefore can be harder for an audience to relate to.

I also do not consider Ash's losses to portray a message that one shouldn't ever aim for victory or doesn't deserve victory so this is to be accepted. This is due to the emotions Ash expresses after almost all of his League losses post the Kanto League loss (which is fair, it is his very first loss at a tournament) and even that one, in a way. Usually, he takes his loss quite well - not because he thinks he should give up on his dream - but he reflects on his experiences and achievements during his time in the region, he considers those, he considers that his opponent was simply better in that match and this helps his resolve to do better. He never feels bitter, or hard done by - even when he's clearly frustrated and upset when he loses in Kanto, he puts on brave face to shake Ritchie's hand, he will not let his frustration tarnish Ritchie's victory as his friend (which is a very positive message - sometimes you don't succeed, but your friends do, and this can be crushing - since you're upset, but you are also happy for your friend) - he takes everything in quite fairly. I don't know if they'll ever have Ash clench a league victory, outside of the Orange League of course, but I think with these losses, the focus is not give up your dreams, but even when they don't come true as quickly as you expect them to or if they never come true, remember and appreciate your journey, how it has positively impacted your life.
 
A plus note is that Ash is not the one keeps losing big tournaments. As far as I can remember, none of Ash's travelling companions actually won a big finale of anything (excluding little tournaments). Losing the league every region period has nothing to do with Ash personally, but that's the motive of the show as a whole. The producers/writers don't want Ash to lose every league to have him in the show for the same reason, but I believe, no one in the main cast is meant to win and achieve their greatest goal onscreen. While thinking through a reason, this should not be overlooked.

I recall hearing that Ash was originally planned to win the Sinnoh League, but when those plans were changed, they wrote Tobias in an insurmountable wall to block Ash's path. They needed someone insanely good to stop him, seeing how Ash was at the top of his game at the Sinnoh League, so they wrote in an out-of-nowhere guy with Legendaries.
Do you have a source for it?
 
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When I was younger, I always counted the Orange League win as a "League Win" because even if it is anime exclusive, it certainly is a "League Win". And it was really nice to see Ash win a huge competition against a supposed "Champion"(I'm not sure what Drake's position was supposed to be but I remember him to be the Isle's most strongest trainer - which would technically be a champion of some sort) at a "League".

I've said this a million times and I'll say it again: Kids like watching their heroes win! If kids are supposed to relate to Ash... wouldn't a major win resonate with the viewers better than losses? Losses are important to show improvement and determination to never give up. But really, standing at the top and receiving that fancy trophy looks really really cool and it gives viewers something exciting and happy to talk about.
 
The reason why League Rivals are last minutes is to give the notion that there are always trainers that are stronger than Ash even if he has beaten his rival. If Ash defeats everyone, it would be easy to assume that he retires and settle after supposedly becoming the best. The League Rival is supposed to re-motivate Ash to continue on journeying.

But if they appear too early, then they would be seen as rivals that Ash needs to beat before his journey comes to a close, not the rival that represents the next level. You've seen it with Alain. People legitimately thought that Ash has a chance of defeating Alain and becoming the champion. Alain is simply not seen as a League rival due to his more established history and character (as well as the fact that he's not actually better as a trainer compared to Ash).

So you can either a fully developed League Rival with actual depth beyond defeating Ash but risk people really want Ash to win above all else.

And that has led to bigger backlashes.
 
But if they appear too early, then they would be seen as rivals that Ash needs to beat before his journey comes to a close, not the rival that represents the next level. You've seen it with Alain. People legitimately thought that Ash has a chance of defeating Alain and becoming the champion. Alain is simply not seen as a League rival due to his more established history and character (as well as the fact that he's not actually better as a trainer compared to Ash).
I know that feeling all too well...
images (1).jpeg
Seriously, everyone hated Alain yet no one hates her?
 
I know that feeling all too well...
View attachment 107988 Seriously, everyone hated Alain yet no one hates her?
I agree...
...especially since Dawn was the first main character to make it to the finals of a big tournament on their first try!

Sorry. I know this may have nothing to do with your post. I just wanted to get it out of my system...
 
When I was younger, I always counted the Orange League win as a "League Win" because even if it is anime exclusive, it certainly is a "League Win". And it was really nice to see Ash win a huge competition against a supposed "Champion"(I'm not sure what Drake's position was supposed to be but I remember him to be the Isle's most strongest trainer - which would technically be a champion of some sort) at a "League".

I've said this a million times and I'll say it again: Kids like watching their heroes win! If kids are supposed to relate to Ash... wouldn't a major win resonate with the viewers better than losses? Losses are important to show improvement and determination to never give up. But really, standing at the top and receiving that fancy trophy looks really really cool and it gives viewers something exciting and happy to talk about.

I initially thought the OI are in the games, turns out they aren't. Plus this League doesn't even have an E4.
Kids want their hero to win, but the target audience keeps renewing itself, so as Masamitsu Hidaka said, they don't need to care.

I know that feeling all too well...
View attachment 107988 Seriously, everyone hated Alain yet no one hates her?

Ash and Dawn should have both won their tourneys in DP, but the writers screwed them up for some reasons. It's like Ash and friends are never meant to achieve their goals.
 
Zoey defeating Dawn never really bothered me. As nice as it would have been for Dawn to win, I think it would have felt a bit too hallow. We only saw one complete battle for her and I didn't think it was particularly good. The Sinnoh Grand Festival in general felt too rushed and much like the Kalos League, we didn't see enough of Dawn's progression in the competition to make getting to the finals feel more noteworthy. We just jumped from point A to point C with only highlights the steps in between. Plus, I think that Dawn just wasn't quite ready to become a Top Coordinator. Zoey was still one step ahead of her practically throughout the entire match and she had already shown a lot of skills during her previous matches, especially against Nando. Dawn had the skills to make her getting to the finals believable, but I just think that Zoey was just the stronger Coordinator out of the two.

One big reason as to why Zoey isn't as infamous as Alain comes down to how their rivalries were presented. Dawn and Zoey didn't really have a traditional rivalry. They had more of a student/mentor dynamic going on, even though this was Zoey's first time going for a Grand Festival too. She started off earlier than Dawn, but I kept forgetting that they were both on their first Grand Festival journeys because of how much more experienced and knowledgeable Zoey came off. While Dawn obviously wanted to defeat Zoey, that was never her main focus. She just wanted to be able to meet Zoey in the finals again and they had a much friendlier kind of relationship than we expect from a main rivalry.

Alain, on the other hand, had more of a traditional rivalry with Ash, even though they didn't meet up until fairly late into the series. Ash wanted to battle and defeat Alain. He already lost to Alain twice, Greninja didn't have full control of its new power during that match and Alain being ridiculously overpowered were signs that made people think that they were building up to Ash defeating Alain. The fact that Alain just quickly got all of the Gym badges he needed and crushed through the Kalos League with just two Pokemon until the finals also didn't help. It made him feel more forced into the Kalos League while Zoey felt obviously more natural for the Grand Festival. Not to mention it makes Alain's victory much more hollow. Alain didn't come off as a stronger trainer so much as he just had a ridiculously broken Mega Charizard X. He didn't even want to win the Kalos League so much as just have another battle with Ash, which he could have easily done outside of the tournament, and becoming the Champion didn't really affect his character. This being the first time Ash got into the finals with his special Greninja also made the backlash more intense. I do remember some anger towards Dawn losing to Zoey back when the Sinnoh Grand Festival happened, but it wasn't nearly on the same level as what happened with Alain won the Kalos League.
 
In my opinion, Dawn would've won too early. Secondly, Zoey was a great character they developed her well and there was a strong friendship between her and Dawn and I don't think I was bothered that she won. I was very pleased when they battled it out on the first stage. Very exciting for me even though it was rushed.
 
Well, with their girls, they're outta here as soon as the saga's over so... why does this apply to them going by that line of thinking?
 
Probably because having them succeed at their goals while Ash fails to win the league would make Ash look bad.
I agree. However, I'd also like to point out that any character who has left the group tends to Take a Level in Badass. Think about it: May evolved many of her Pokémon and got a lot stronger (she beat Zoey, after all), Dawn evolved Cyndaquil and also became stronger (as seen in the PWT Junior Cup), and Brock and Misty got Mega Evolutions. And who knows how much Iris and Serena have developed since we last saw them.
 
While having the girls succeed in their goals while Ash doesn't could make him look bad, I think it's primarily so that the characters can have something to work towards after they leave. They haven't always provided a decent sense of closure with their characters, but the idea that they can be off on their own journeys to improve and become stronger after leaving the cast can be satisfying note to end on for their fans. Plus, it does fit with the whole "there's always someone stronger out there" message that the show provides through Ash's defeats.
 
I think that one thing that bothers many people about Ash losing so many Leagues is winning one League doesn’t necessarily mean that he’ll have a closure to his character and to his story.

I mean, did he stop traveling, making new friends and becoming stronger when he won at the Orange League? Or did he accept when he was offered a spot as a Frontier Brain after finishing the Battle Frontier?

Even if he were to win a League, that wouldn’t mean that he has accomplished his goal, but only that he is a step forward toward said goal. Maybe the staff could have him in a perpetual quest to reach an unreachable point, but winning a simple trophy shouldn’t be an obstacle. There are plenty more things they could do to expand his story, even after winning a League.

Having someone stronger than him could be a fair point, but this kinda became moot after he faced Tobias and to an extent Alain. He has the knowledge to take down legends and Megas now, so it would appear a bit unfeasible and not very believable for him to not be able to use said knowledge to turn the tides at some point.

I get why he never won a game-based League, but I really can’t help but be puzzled by this whole “winning a League” apprehension.
 
I think winning a league could be considered as closure because he would have to stay in that league to fight E4 and Champion. Ash as a character would like to do that, i.e. finish the story and progress. Referring to Orange League and Battle Frontier, that didn't actually have any knockout stages really, they were just "challenges" as extra, like the Battle Frontier is in the game. But where you have said having a step towards his goal, yes that's true. A Pokemon Master is someone really strong and who can win battles all the time. But I think some anime watchers, if he wins a league it will be some sort of closure.
 
While I don't think it ever bothered me that Ash hasn't won a game related League, at least as much as it has with other fans, I agree that it wouldn't make him a Pokemon Master or give him a sense of closure. Becoming a Frontier Brain in his home region could have, but I don't think Ash would be have been too interested in staying in one place. Winning the Orange League didn't really give him closure and I do count that as a League victory. We've seen other characters who win a League go off to do their own journeys. Even Alain didn't go immediately enter the Champion League after Team Flare was defeated. The Champion League wasn't even mentioned until DP. I know it was brought up again in BW, but I forget if it was mentioned in XY.

I think it's less like the writers are afraid to have Ash win and more like they want to have justification for Ash starting over again in a new region. If he won the League and got to the Elite 4, then it might be harder to justify in-universe why he'd want to start another journey. Granted, even that is a bit of a stretch. They kind of ran into the same problem with Ash getting so far in the Kalos League only to start over again in SM and the target audience could have changed enough between the end of XY and the start of SM to where that wouldn't really matter, but they do want to keep Ash around and losing can help to further justify that in-universe at least.
 
Agreed, Ash is determined and will want to adventure everywhere. Also, another definition of Pokemon Master could be going everywhere and 'conquering'. I agree with your last paragraph @Hidden Mew. They would want a justification to make him start in the next region and it would take up too many episodes if he decided to undertake the Champions League and they would need some filler episodes because Ash would have to travel. Remember, the Japanese viewers expect the anime to follow just after the new game has been released.
 
Please note: The thread is from 6 years ago.
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