Why are so many Ice Types slow and defensive?

[BettyN]

Actually, isn't Bug technically the bottom of the barrel when it comes to types? I mean, most Bug-types don't even compare to most Ice types.

I'm not so sure. Yeah, the early-game cocoon bugs suck (as they're supposed to, Mega Beedrill aside), but the likes of Scyther, Scizor, Pinsir, Heracross, and Volcarona sure as hell don't. Ninjask is the fastest non-Legendary Pokémon in the entire game, and Shedinja can be a dangerous troll if you don't have any SE moves. Scolipede, Escavalier, Galvantula, and Durant aren't bad, either. And, do I even need to mention Genesect, who outclasses the vast majority of Ice Type Legendaries?

 

[BlackButterfree]

Actually, isn't Bug technically the bottom of the barrel when it comes to types? I mean, most Bug-types don't even compare to most Ice types.

I'm not so sure. Yeah, the early-game cocoon bugs suck (as they're supposed to, Mega Beedrill aside), but the likes of Scyther, Scizor, Pinsir, Heracross, and Volcarona sure as hell don't. Ninjask is the fastest non-Legendary Pokémon in the entire game, and Shedinja can be a dangerous troll if you don't have any SE moves. Scolipede, Escavalier, Galvantula, and Durant aren't bad, either. And, do I even need to mention Genesect, who outclasses the vast majority of Ice Type Legendaries?

Well that's only a handful. The average BST for all Bug types is like 371 or something? It's literally the weakest type in the game.

 

[BettyN]

Well that's only a handful. The average BST for all Bug types is like 371 or something? It's literally the weakest type in the game.

BST doesn't mean everything. Type matchups, stat distributions, and movepools are all just as important, if not even more.

Articuno, Regice, and Kyurem are all Legendaries with very high BSTs, and yet, they're all considered among the very worst in Ice Types. Why? They all have terrible movepools, stat spreads that are either overly-defensive (Articuno and Regice) or too even (Kyurem), and typings that give them crippling weaknesses without hardly any benefits.

Compare this to Scizor. Its BST is only 500, lower than the Ice Legendaries, as well as many non-Legendary Ice Types like Lapras, Walrein, and Vanilluxe. And, yet, it's still widely considered to be a vastly superior Pokémon. Why?

Instead of being evenly spread out, most of its stat points are distributed into the important areas--Attack and Defense. It's not saddled with an unnecessarily high Sp. Attack like Lapras, Walrein, and Vanilluxe are saddled with unnecessarily high Attacks.

And, it has the exact kind of ability and movepool it needs. Technician + Bullet Punch is deadly, Technician + Pursuit makes for nasty revenge-killing, and it gets Swords Dance via level-up to jack up that Attack stat even higher. It also has good back-up moves in X-Scissor and U-Turn.

And, its type combo is among the best in the game. Just one weakness (albeit, a 4x one), with eight resistances (including the coveted Dragon and Fairy) and an immunity. Unlike Ice Types, Scizor can afford to be slow and bulky.

 

[homer.homs]

Same here. Lapras is a wonderful Pokémon with a great design and fantastic movepool, but its stats are distributed way too evenly, and its type hurts it more than it helps. Here's an idea for a Mega Lapras I've been kicking around:

Mega Lapras

Type: Water
Ability: Drizzle

HP: 130
Attack: 75 (-10)
Defense: 80 (+0)
Sp. Attack: 145 (+60)
Sp. Defense: 120 (+25)
Speed: 75 (+15)​

Now, THIS what Lapras should've always been. Slow and bulky, yes, but with amazing Sp. Attack. Like a Special version of Mamoswine, basically.

Unless type matchups change anytime soon, Ice will always hurt Lapras more than help it, so I made it mono-Water. (Similar to Mega Aggron being mono-Steel.) I jacked up the Special stats, dropped its unnecessarily high Attack, and gave it a teensy bit more Speed. With Base 145 Sp. Attack, it will actually pack a stronger Ice Beam than its base form, despite the lack of STAB.

And, I went all out with the ability. Lapras deserves an amazing ability, and even with the nerf, what's more amazing than weather? Just look at what weather abilities did for the likes of Politoed, Ninetales, and Charizard. STAB rain-boosted Surf/Hydro Pump coming off that Sp. Attack will hurt.

What do you think?

I am always a fan of Lapras since Gen I. But I never use it as a competitive Pokemon because of it's "not-so-decent" stat distribution. Though it has the highest stats for a unevolved non-legendary non-Mega Pokemon, I usually go for 252 HP/252 Sp. Atk/4 Def(or 4 Sp. Def). Though your stat distribution is ok but I think I go for revenge-kill built for Lapras. I am also not a fan of Hydro-pump due to it's poor accuracy. I rather use Surf for revenge-kill with Rain Dance to back you up for additional damage. As for the Ability, I think Drizzle is not available for Lapras for Gen VI but I go for Hydration to prevent any status. My moveset are Surf, Rain Dance, Ice Beam, Perish Song/Confuse Ray.

But if GameFreak will give a Mega-evo for Lapras, I will not think twice in using it in competitive scene.

 

[BettyN]

I am always a fan of Lapras since Gen I. But I never use it as a competitive Pokemon because of it's "not-so-decent" stat distribution. Though it has the highest stats for a unevolved non-legendary non-Mega Pokemon, I usually go for 252 HP/252 Sp. Atk/4 Def(or 4 Sp. Def). Though your stat distribution is ok but I think I go for revenge-kill built for Lapras. I am also not a fan of Hydro-pump due to it's poor accuracy. I rather use Surf for revenge-kill with Rain Dance to back you up for additional damage. As for the Ability, I think Drizzle is not available for Lapras for Gen VI but I go for Hydration to prevent any status. My moveset are Surf, Rain Dance, Ice Beam, Perish Song/Confuse Ray.

But if GameFreak will give a Mega-evo for Lapras, I will not think twice in using it in competitive scene.

That's what Lapras is, now, though. This proposed Mega is what it could look like if it was given one. Of course, it doesn't have Drizzle now, but it could have it if it was given a Mega, just like Charizard getting Drought with one of its Megas. Same goes for the stat layout.

(And, as an FYI, Hydration's nowhere near as good as it used to be, thanks to Rain no longer being permanent. Drizzle would be a much needed upgrade, especially since Lapras has the moves to use with it, from Surf/Hydro Pump to Thunder. The 145 Sp. Attack also allows it to run Freeze Dry over Ice Beam for perfect coverage with a Water move.)

 

[GhostFingers]

Ice types are better than you might initially think -

Dewgong & Walrein: Not that bad defensively with Thick Fat. Their best moves are from TMs/HMs rather than level up, but now that TMs are multi use it doesn't matter too much.
Jynx: Specialised in speed and sp att. What more do you want? Movepool includes psychic, ice beam, blizzard, hail, fake tears, lovely kiss, sweet kiss, etc etc
Weavile: simply amazing; faints if a fighting type so much as looks the wrong way at it, but the same can be said for Bisharp
Glaceon: shame it lost the ability to learn water pulse after gen IV, but this was due to water pulse losing TM status, not a change with Glaceon itself. It still kick ass.
Froslass: good speed makes up for crap phys att and nothing to do with it except wake-up slap.
Regice: High sp def + amnesia gives it more use than you might think
Kyurem: still a dragon but not weak to ice. Why don't you love this?
Vanilluxe, Beartic, Mamoswine: slow physical attackers combo very nicely with avalanche.
Lapras: really more to get you around than to fight, but high stats are not to be underestimated.

Bad -

Abomasnow: insta-hail+perfect accuracy blizzard on first turn. Again more useful in practice than on paper, but still horribly weak.
Cloyster: terrible sp def.
Cryogonal: terrible phys def.

Personally, I'd make them resist grass (it makes sense logically, but would really hurt grass) and maybe flying too, and all ice-type attacks not resisted by fire, and SE against water. Freeze-dry feels like too little too late with its limited distribution and why did it take 6 whole generations for ice to freeze water???

 

[Rainami]

I have no issue with some ice types being slow and defensive, even if it's a big chunk. Sure, most of them are not good competitively, but not everyfin needs to cater to competitive Pokemon. If all ice types were fast, hard hitting glass cannons, that would be pretty damn boring. But you're definitely right about there being too many of them. The type isn't cut out for being defensive, why are so many of them trying to be? I do think a defensive ice-type could work, but we've yet to see any gr8 examples of this (though avalugg seems somewhat good to me).

you're giving vkyurem way too much shit -- sure, for somefin with those stats, it is quite bad, but it is still a good pokemon. And Beartic's movepool is fine, especially for an ice-type, don't know why you're making a point to insult it. [/nitpicks]

Ice types are better than you might initially think -

Dewgong & Walrein: Not that bad defensively with Thick Fat. Their best moves are from TMs/HMs rather than level up, but now that TMs are multi use it doesn't matter too much.
Jynx: Specialised in speed and sp att. What more do you want? Movepool includes psychic, ice beam, blizzard, hail, fake tears, lovely kiss, sweet kiss, etc etc
Weavile: simply amazing; faints if a fighting type so much as looks the wrong way at it, but the same can be said for Bisharp
Glaceon: shame it lost the ability to learn water pulse after gen IV, but this was due to water pulse losing TM status, not a change with Glaceon itself. It still kick ass.
Froslass: good speed makes up for crap phys att and nothing to do with it except wake-up slap.
Regice: High sp def + amnesia gives it more use than you might think
Kyurem: still a dragon but not weak to ice. Why don't you love this?
Vanilluxe, Beartic, Mamoswine: slow physical attackers combo very nicely with avalanche.
Lapras: really more to get you around than to fight, but high stats are not to be underestimated.

Bad -

Abomasnow: insta-hail+perfect accuracy blizzard on first turn. Again more useful in practice than on paper, but still horribly weak.
Cloyster: terrible sp def.
Cryogonal: terrible phys def.

Personally, I'd make them resist grass (it makes sense logically, but would really hurt grass) and maybe flying too, and all ice-type attacks not resisted by fire, and SE against water. Freeze-dry feels like too little too late with its limited distribution and why did it take 6 whole generations for ice to freeze water???

you single out cloyster, cryogonal, and abomasnow as being bad while in reality they are better than most of what you just named.

grass doesn't need somefin else to resist it, but I guess I could see flying. The other suggestions don't target the real problem.

I think that ice should resist water tbh

 

[Bolt Strike]

As far as resistances go, I'd like to see it resist Ground and Dragon. Ground is probably the best type in the game right now with phenomenal coverage and could stand to be brought down a peg, and Dragon would help it retain some of its original niche against Dragon (now granted, it would still be less popular than Fairy because of the immunity, but it would at least be useable).

 

[BettyN]

I have no issue with some ice types being slow and defensive, even if it's a big chunk. Sure, most of them are not good competitively, but not everyfin needs to cater to competitive Pokemon. If all ice types were fast, hard hitting glass cannons, that would be pretty damn boring.

Actually, I could care less about competitive, since you're asking. (Although, I know a lot of people do.) However, Ice Types are so flawed that most of them aren't any good in-game. They're usually very rare and don't show up until very late, after you've already encountered a million Water Types and other Pokémon with better typings/movepools/stats who can learn Ice attacks. And, in-game battling is all about hitting hard and fast, which most Ice Types aren't very good at to begin with.

For example, why bother trying to lob Great Balls at Articuno or painstakingly raise up a Cloyster or (lol) Dewgong to deal with Lance when you could just slap Ice Beam onto Blastoise, Starmie, Vaporeon, or (Oh, the irony!) Dragonite, all of whom do the Dragon-slaying job much better with superior stats, typings, and movepools. If you're playing RBY or GSC, Ice Punch on Kadabra, Alakazam, Gengar, and even, Feraligatr will also do the trick.

You know, one thing that I think Ice Types could stand to benefit from was a high-powered STAB that's mostly exclusive to them, especially for the Special attackers. It's just too easy to replace Ice Types when so many other Pokémon can learn Ice Beam/Blizzard.

 

[Pokepal148]

Personally I think it would make sense for ice to resist water (because ice is just another form of water) because it would be interesting to have two types that resist eachother (and it would make freeze dry a bit more of an interesting move.)

But for me, Lapras is an invaluable member of my team who has proven to be very handy but I suspect how handy it is in a given battle depends on how prepared my opponent is to deal with it. Also, for a bulky Pokemon with decent special attack gamefreak sure seems unwilling to give it a move like calm mind.

 

[BettyN]

But for me, Lapras is an invaluable member of my team who has proven to be very handy but I suspect how handy it is in a given battle depends on how prepared my opponent is to deal with it. Also, for a bulky Pokemon with decent special attack gamefreak sure seems unwilling to give it a move like calm mind.

Lapras is such a sad case. You'd think for a Pokémon as iconic and beloved as it is, GF would be willing to give it a buff or two, but it hasn't seen hardly any changes or improvements since its introduction, so the Power Creep of the later Gens hit it HARD. It hasn't even gotten a Mega yet, even after so many other fan-favorites from Gen 1 have gotten them, and that doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.

I guess it's still an okay Pokémon in-game, though, although most of that has to do with its Water typing and the fact that it's usually a gift/event Pokémon (making it far easier to obtain than most Ice Types).

 

[GhostFingers]

you single out cloyster, cryogonal, and abomasnow as being bad while in reality they are better than most of what you just named.

grass doesn't need somefin else to resist it, but I guess I could see flying. The other suggestions don't target the real problem.

I think that ice should resist water tbh

I didn't mean that they were bad pokemon, just that they have really bad exploitative flaws, and are less even than the others. Also i'm aware that grass doesn't NEED a nerf, but it would be a logical match-up.

As far as resistances go, I'd like to see it resist Ground and Dragon. Ground is probably the best type in the game right now with phenomenal coverage and could stand to be brought down a peg, and Dragon would help it retain some of its original niche against Dragon (now granted, it would still be less popular than Fairy because of the immunity, but it would at least be useable).

I really don't think ground is over-amazing. It his supereffectively on the most types, but there are many flyers and levitaters to compensate for balance.