Why did Gen 2 get rid of Lorelei and Agatha?

[BettyN]

As much as I love GSC, there's one huge thing I *didn't* love about them--Their astonishingly lame Elite Four.

Even taking the low level curve into account, the trainers, themselves, were a clear step down from the previous Gen.

Will was laughably bad. Psychic is a type full of cool, powerful Pokémon, even just among the first two Gens, and what did he pick as his ace? Xatu. A Pokémon with a BST below 500 and not a single base stat above 95. And, an atrocious movepool to boot. And, the rest of his team was full of Pokémon we had already seen used more effectively by other, better trainers in the Indigo Plateau (Lorelei's Slowbro and Jynx, Blue's Exeggutor). Laaaame.

And, Bruno, what a joke. He was always a complete pushover in Gen 1 with his two Onix (45 base Attack, woo!) and slow, predictable Fighting Types that always got nuked by Psychic before they could land a hit, and that didn't change one bit in Gen 2. All he added was Hitmontop, and frustratingly, that weak rock worm was still there, not even evolved. Pathetic.

And, as much as I love his character, Lance was very underwhelming as a Champion. Not only did he have three of the same (underleveled) Pokémon, but his entire team was weak to the very common BoltBeam combo (which, ironically, made him an easier opponent than his cousin, Clair). All you needed was a Kadabra, Alakazam, or Gengar with Ice/Thunder Punch (pre-Physical/Special split) to beat him very easily without even taking a hit in return. A Champion should not be so easily soloed like that.

I get that they wanted to switch up the Elite Four from RBY to throw off players familiar with the original games (especially since RBY and GSC came out so close to each other), but why ditch the old group's two strongest members, Lorelei and Agatha, while keeping the pushover Bruno and the mediocre Lance?

Lorelei was probably the toughest opponent there besides Blue, especially in Yellow (which had better movesets). Slowbro was near unstoppable if you allowed it to get an Amnesia or two off (which acted like a double Calm Mind in RBY), and Lapras would almost always survive whatever you threw at it and hit back hard with either Body Slam or Blizzard (90% accurate in RBY). Jynx was much harder to deal with in a game where Dark/Steel didn't exist, Ghost/Bug sucked, and Fire didn't resist Ice, and Cloyster boasted massive Physical bulk and Clamp to endlessly immobilize any slower opponent. Only Dewgong didn't pose much of a threat, but it did have a higher Sp. Attack at the time (Base 95 instead of 70).

Agatha wasn't too bad, either. While her team was just as weak to Psychic as Bruno's was, she actually employed some strategy. She wasn't afraid to switch out her Pokémon if there was an unfavorable matchup, and she made extensive use of status conditions like Sleep, Poison, and Confusion. She could still be tricky if you didn't have a powerful Psychic to sweep her with.

The Gen 2 Elite Four badly needed trainers like Lorelei and Agatha to be a real threat, and their presence was sorely missed. I'll admit that Koga and especially, Karen weren't bad, sporting smarter teams and a little strategy, but the weakness of Will and Bruno, as well as Lance's mediocrity, really dragged the Gen 2 Elite Four down. They're supposed to be the most powerful trainers in the game, but they felt like less of a threat than many Gym Leaders (such as Whitney and Clair).

 

[glow]

Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a side story in Fire Red and Leaf Green that suggested Lorelei's tenure with the Elite Four was coming to an end? I know it's only a narrative explanation after the fact and not an adequate statement for why the developers omitted her for the sake of gameplay, but it's at least some sort of excuse for the absence. Agatha though? No idea. Maybe she decided to retire (but then you do have people like Pryce and Professor Oak still dabbling in Pokemon at their ages...)

 

[BettyN]

Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a side story in Fire Red and Leaf Green that suggested Lorelei's tenure with the Elite Four was coming to an end? I know it's only a narrative explanation after the fact and not an adequate statement for why the developers omitted her for the sake of gameplay, but it's at least some sort of excuse for the absence.

They had her fight off some Rocket Grunts near her home on Four Island. Many people have theorized that she eventually returned there for good, but nothing was ever explicitly stated in the games. (Plus, she hasn't been seen or heard from since then, anyways.)

Of course, those are the remakes, mind you. The original games made no attempt at an explanation and instead, just dropped her for some joke in a mask.

(Yes, I don't think too highly of Will, in general.)

Agatha though? No idea. Maybe she decided to retire (but then you do have people like Pryce and Professor Oak still dabbling in Pokemon at their ages...)

Many fans have theorized that she may have died, which would explain why we never saw her again. The games never stated anything, however.

 

[glow]

They had her fight off some Rocket Grunts near her home on Four Island. Many people have theorized that she eventually returned there for good, but nothing was ever explicitly stated in the games. (Plus, she hasn't been seen or heard from since then, anyways.)

Of course, those are the remakes, mind you. The original games made no attempt at an explanation and instead, just dropped her for some joke in a mask.

(Yes, I don't think too highly of Will, in general.)

Agatha though? No idea. Maybe she decided to retire (but then you do have people like Pryce and Professor Oak still dabbling in Pokemon at their ages...)

Many fans have theorized that she may have died, which would explain why we never saw her again. The games never stated anything, however.

Notwithstanding story line explanations, I think one of the reasons that Lorelei was excluded as an elite four member could be owed to the fact that you fight another ice type specialist (Pryce) shortly before entering Pokemon League. It may have been seen as hasty and redundant to fight two "bosses" who specialize in the same type so close together; compare the time gap between the player fighting Chuck and Bruno, it's larger and more tactfully done despite them sharing the same favored type. However, that only begs the question of why Agatha got the boot when Morty, another ghost specialist, would have been defeated at least four gyms prior to the beginning of the Pokemon League. Lance doesn't really have an excuse since Clair was the last gym leader of Johto, but half of his team aren't dragons anyway so that may be a potential excuse/cop out. Maybe Will was shoehorned in to give the psychic type some sort of 2nd generation trainer representation? (Sabrina may have been in GSC, but she still debuted in RBGY and is more closely associated with those games)

 

[BettyN]

Notwithstanding story line explanations, I think one of the reasons that Lorelei was excluded as an elite four member could be owed to the fact that you fight another ice type specialist (Pryce) shortly before entering Pokemon League.

While they're both technically Ice specialists, Lorelei and Pryce had an entirely different focus. Lorelei also made heavy use of Water and Psychic Types (her team was entirely dominated by Water Types, enough to make her a Water specialist as well), while Pryce was more pure Ice.

However, that only begs the question of why Agatha got the boot when Morty, another ghost specialist, would have been defeated at least four gyms prior to the beginning of the Pokemon League.

It's possible that she may have been excluded because of Ghost's offensive overlap with Dark (Karen), although that didn't stop the later Hoenn and Unova from having Dark and Ghost Elite Fours at the same time.

Koga could've been a possible factor, too. Agatha was also a Poison specialist, and she employed many of the same tricks (ie. Poison, Sleep, Confusion, etc.) as Koga did. Of course, that begs the question of why they specifically promoted Koga to the Elite Four instead of another Kanto Gym Leader with less overlap, such as Surge, Erika, Sabrina, or Blaine.

Lance doesn't really have an excuse since Clair was the last gym leader of Johto, but half of his team aren't dragons anyway so that may be a potential excuse/cop out.

There were only two fully-evolved Dragon Types in Gen 2, so no.

Maybe Will was shoehorned in to give the psychic type some sort of 2nd generation trainer representation? (Sabrina may have been in GSC, but she still debuted in RBGY and is more closely associated with those games)

If they wanted a Psychic user in the Elite Four bad enough, they should've just promoted Sabrina over Koga and left Will out altogether. Being in the same game as Sabrina only made Will look like even more of a joke, IMO.

 

[henrymidfields]

Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a side story in Fire Red and Leaf Green that suggested Lorelei's tenure with the Elite Four was coming to an end? I know it's only a narrative explanation after the fact and not an adequate statement for why the developers omitted her for the sake of gameplay, but it's at least some sort of excuse for the absence. Agatha though? No idea. Maybe she decided to retire (but then you do have people like Pryce and Professor Oak still dabbling in Pokemon at their ages...)

I gather that Agatha probably died of old age, or had to retire for medical reasons. Then again, that's my take.

Yeah, Gen 2 had the weakest lineup. I mean, just send a Pokémon with a type advantage, and you're pretty much set. Even Lance isn't much of a threat; just use Thunderbolt on Gyarados, and Ice Beam on Dragonite. Although, I find Gen 1 to be not much better either - well, except for Blue. I say Gen 1 was unintentionally difficult due to the difference in gameplay mechanisms. They both got nothing on later Generations.

I played Gen 5/6, and Gen 5 E4 battles (esp rematches) were no slouches. Just having Sturdy on one of Marshall's Pokémon is enough to greatly stop my momentum, and all the others have various abilities and wide movepools to catch me off guard. Even Gen 6 is arguably better; double typings, Wikstrom using Toxic Spike-Prankster-Klefki that you'll see in the metagame, Siebold's Gyarados packing in Earthquake/Ice Fang/Dragon Dace, Malva's Chandelure having Flame Body to rule out Physical Attacks etc. I think the only two reasons why Gen 6's E4 is easy are the E4 having only 4 Pokémon, and Diantha having two weaknesses across multiple Pokémon.

Does anyone know if HGSS version of them are also weak like babies, or improved?

 

[Bolt Strike]

I'm guessing this was an intentional design decision based on what kinds of Pokemon could be used for gym leader/Elite 4 teams. With 16 gyms spanning every type except Dark and Ground, it was impossible to not repeat type specialists. Operating on that logic, it would make sense to keep Bruno and Lance and get rid of Lorelei and Agatha. Bringing Agatha back would've been a terrible idea since there were only two Ghost types to use, and there weren't many good Ice types back then either. They only got away with keeping Lance because his team was mainly Flying to begin with.

As for the rosters themselves, you have to remember that the variety was terrible back then. There weren't a whole lot of options for certain types and it would be hard to make a challenging team out of those, especially if they want to put emphasis on the 2nd gen Pokemon since many of them were fairly weak back in their time. Could they have been improved? Certainly. But not to the degree that you want it to. If the Johto Dex was anything like Pt Sinnoh, BW2 Unova, or Kalos, then sure we'd see some threatening gym/Elite 4 teams but with the lack of variety the Johto Dex has it's just not going to work.

 

[BettyN]

Bringing Agatha back would've been a terrible idea since there were only two Ghost types to use, and there weren't many good Ice types back then either.

And, somehow, that didn't stop the "beloved" Hoenn from having Phoebe and Glacia, who didn't even have the courtesy or originality to accent their terrible, limited teams with Pokémon of other types.

And, what about (DP) Sinnoh having Flint in a game that had a whopping TWO fully-evolved Fire Types?

As for the rosters themselves, you have to remember that the variety was terrible back then. There weren't a whole lot of options for certain types and it would be hard to make a challenging team out of those, especially if they want to put emphasis on the 2nd gen Pokemon since many of them were fairly weak back in their time. Could they have been improved? Certainly. But not to the degree that you want it to. If the Johto Dex was anything like Pt Sinnoh, BW2 Unova, or Kalos, then sure we'd see some threatening gym/Elite 4 teams but with the lack of variety the Johto Dex has it's just not going to work.

Again, you're applying the standards of later games to 15 year old ones. They literally weren't planning on having any more than 251 Pokémon, because Gold and Silver were designed with the intention of them being the last games. Obviously, type diversity wasn't their main criteria for creating new Pokémon back then.

(And, what you refer to as the "Johto Dex" didn't exist back then. It was just the New Pokédex and the Old Pokédex, and all 251 were a part of both. Regional and National Pokédexes were an invention of Gen 3.)

 

[Silktree]

It's perfectly understandable why the Indigo Plateau, which was linked to Johto rather than just Kanto, accommodated Generation II characters and Pokémon. Karen, at the very least, was needed to represent the new Dark type, assuming that the Johto Gym Leaders had already been fixed. You can complain about Lorelei and Agatha being replaced instead of Bruno and Lance, but that's called favoritism (any kind of choice would be biased). I think it would have been better to keep Lorelei instead of Bruno, but what can you do? I don't really see the point of this thread as it just amounts to a subjective preference.

A more objective observation would be that Generation II lacked a Ground-type specialist, even though Donphan would have made a good signature Pokémon (Nidoqueen, Piloswine, Quagsire and Steelix would have complemented it nicely). I would have preferred the following Elite Four: Will, Koga, Ground specialist, Lance and Karen as the Champion (with a Tyranitar). I feel that Will would have been put to good use had he been given Slowking and Espeon (instead of Slowbro and the second Xatu). I'd suggest Lorelei, but I can see why they removed her with Pryce already having Piloswine and there being no other adequate Ice-type Generation II Pokémon.

but why ditch the old group's two strongest members, Lorelei and Agatha, while keeping the pushover Bruno and the mediocre Lance?

I don't even see where this is coming from. Calling Lorelei or Agatha stronger than Lance is quite a stretch.

 

[Joshawott]

I'd say that the main reason the Elite 4 roster changed was to help reflect the passage of time between R/B and G/S. For example, due to Agatha's age she could have retired during the interim and Lorelei could have left for a variety of other reasons.

As @Silktree; noted, while there wasn't a Dark-type Gym Leader, the game needed a type specialist to show off the type (as we already had Jasmine as a Steel-type Gym Leader and later in XY, Valerie as a Fairy-type Gym Leader).
As for Koga being promoted, it could have been a tease as to what was to come with Kanto. Seeing an old Kanto Gym Leader as an Elite Four member would make people think "Wait, if he's in the Elite 4, who's the Fuchsia City Gym Leader?", thus making people even a tiny bit more interested in exploring Kanto.

The choice of which Elite 4 members found themselves being replaced could have been for purposes of balance. Both Ice (Lorelei) and Dark (Karen) are weak to Fighting-types (although only two of Karen's Pokémon actually take 2x damage from fighting), while Fighting (Bruno), Poison (Koga) and all of Agatha's RB team (Ghost/Poison) are weak to Psychic-types. Sure, Lorelei used Slowbro and Jynx, but neither of them knew a Psychic-type move in Red/Blue.
There's also the point that both Karen and Agatha use Gengar and two random Poison-types (Arbok and Golbat for Agatha, Vileplume and Gengar for Karen), while Will and Lorelei also used two Pokémon of the same species (Slowbro and Jynx).
So to be honest, it makes sense that Lorelei and Agatha were the two members that were dropped. Sure, Psychic and Dark are weak to Bug-types, but with Karen using a Houndoom, Vileplume and Gengar, bugs weren't going to make a dent anyway.

I do agree that Will could have had better Pokémon though; the second Xatu could have easily been an Alakazam and the Slowbro could have been a Starmie or Espeon (which might have fit with Karen's Umbreon to be honest).

 

[BettyN]

You can complain about Lorelei and Agatha being replaced instead of Bruno and Lance, but that's called favoritism (any kind of choice would be biased). I think it would have been better to keep Lorelei instead of Bruno, but what can you do? I don't really see the point of this thread as it just amounts to a subjective preference.

Oh, it IS favoritism. Looking back on the past 15 or so years, I can safely conclude that Game Freak hates Lorelei:

1. Disappeared without a trace in GSC and their remakes
2. Hasn't been seen or even heard from in ANY game in a full 10 years
3. Her specialized type is one of the games' weakest and most neglected
4. Her ace, the Pokémon most associated with her, is the literal Black Sheep of the franchise

It's probably not a coincidence that her character got the most exposure and screentime in things not created by Game Freak, such as the anime or Adventures.

Plus, as a woman, it looks kind of problematic to replace the two female Elite Four members while keeping the two guys. Especially, since both of the women weren't replaced with other women. Sure, it might not have been Game Freak's intention but that's how it looked. (Seriously, the Gen 2 Elite Four was the most male-dominated ever. Karen was cool, but there needed to be more women.)

I don't even see where this is coming from. Calling Lorelei or Agatha stronger than Lance is quite a stretch.

I lost to Lorelei, like, 8 times, while I swept through the other three easy-peasy. If Lance really gave you THAT much trouble, get a Starmie.

 

[Silktree]

I can safely conclude that Game Freak hates Lorelei:

Her role in FRLG goes a lot to show otherwise; no other Elite Four member has been given that treatment to date. I suppose you could count Malva, but we barely learned anything about her as an actual character.

Just because Lorelei and Agatha weren't carried over to the Johto games doesn't mean that Game Freak hate them. You sound childish.

Her specialized type is one of the games' weakest and most neglected

That has nothing to do with Lorelei.

(Seriously, the Gen 2 Elite Four was the most male-dominated ever. Karen was cool, but there needed to be more women.)

Which is why there should have been a female Ground specialist, with Karen being the Champion.

I lost to Lorelei, like, 8 times, while I swept through the other three easy-peasy. If Lance really gave you THAT much trouble, get a Starmie.

None of them gave me much trouble if memory serves, and none of the Elite Four should be a problem for any veteran player by now. But it's easy to see how a lot of players back then wouldn't have necessarily known how to deal with Dragonair and Dragonite due to their rarity. Was it that hard to use Thunderbolt/Thunder and/or Rock Slide to handle Lorelei?

 

[BettyN]

None of them gave me much trouble if memory serves, and none of the Elite Four should be a problem for any veteran player by now. But it's easy to see how a lot of players back then wouldn't have necessarily known how to deal with Dragonair and Dragonite due to their rarity.

Really? Almost every guide book I owned said that Dragon was weak to Ice, and every Water Type, sans Magikarp, could learn Ice Beam. Plus, Dragonair was a weak NFE, and Dragonite was slow and had a 4x weakness. It didn't take long for 9-year old me to figure that out at all.

Again, get a Starmie. Or, a Vaporeon. Or, trade Alakazam/Gengar over to GSC to teach them Ice Punch.

Was it that hard to use Thunderbolt/Thunder and/or Rock Slide to handle Lorelei?

Rock Slide was worthless as the only users of it were slow Rock/Ground Types with terrible Special. Same for Fire--Only Jynx was weak to it, and Fire Types didn't even resist Ice back then. (Bye, Charizard and Moltres!) And, Steel? Didn't exist. (And, only Jynx would've been weak, anyways.)

As for Electric, the best STAB users were Zapdos and Jolteon, and the former was weak to Ice. And, even a STAB Thunderbolt (Thunder is worthless without Rain Dance) probably wasn't going to OHKO Lapras without major overleveling, which meant eating a Body Slam or Blizzard (90% accurate!) in return. And, did I mention that Electric Types have never been known for being bulky?

And, Freeze mechanics were downright scary back then--No thawing without healing items or getting hit with a Fire move. Better hope you stocked up on Full Heals!

 

[Silktree]

Rock Slide was worthless as the only users of it were slow Rock/Ground Types with terrible Special.

Rock Slide was a TM with broad accessibility. Machamp, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Tauros, Kabutops and Snorlax stand out as good users.

As for Electric, the best STAB users were Zapdos and Jolteon, and the former was weak to Ice.

There were plenty of other users; they didn't have to be the best ones to take on Lorelei.

And, even a STAB Thunderbolt (Thunder is worthless without Rain Dance) probably wasn't going to OHKO Lapras without major overleveling, which meant eating a Body Slam or Blizzard (90% accurate!) in return.

So? Last I checked Lapras' offensive stats weren't amazing.

And, Freeze mechanics were downright scary back then--No thawing without healing items or getting hit with a Fire move. Better hope you stocked up on Full Heals!

It was only sensible to carry Full Heals and Full Restores. You're talking about a 10% occurence, anyway.

At any rate, Lorelei would have been easier to defeat in Generation II, much like in FRLG.

 

[Bolt Strike]

And, somehow, that didn't stop the "beloved" Hoenn from having Phoebe and Glacia, who didn't even have the courtesy or originality to accent their terrible, limited teams with Pokémon of other types.

And, what about (DP) Sinnoh having Flint in a game that had a whopping TWO fully-evolved Fire Types?

Nothing else in those games that would've made a good substitute. The other types either also lack enough of their type or don't have a good native Pokemon to represent the type.

Again, you're applying the standards of later games to 15 year old ones. They literally weren't planning on having any more than 251 Pokémon, because Gold and Silver were designed with the intention of them being the last games. Obviously, type diversity wasn't their main criteria for creating new Pokémon back then.

Whether or not they cared about is irrelevant, the fact remains is that it existed and it limited their options.

I do agree that Will could have had better Pokémon though; the second Xatu could have easily been an Alakazam and the Slowbro could have been a Starmie or Espeon (which might have fit with Karen's Umbreon to be honest).

Except Alakazam was Sabrina's main, so that wouldn't have been a good idea. I would've done something more like this:

Xatu
Jynx
Exeggutor
Slowking
Espeon

I lost to Lorelei, like, 8 times, while I swept through the other three easy-peasy. If Lance really gave you THAT much trouble, get a Starmie.

Here's the thing with difficulty in a Pokemon game, it varies a bit depending on your team choice. For instance, I had a lot of trouble with Marshal in BW1, but the main reason for that was that the Pokemon I used against him was Archeops, which because it's part Rock is more susceptible to Fighting type moves than other Psychic or Flying types. Similarly, I never had trouble with Lorelei at all, it might just be the Pokemon you used that gave you difficulty. And like Silktree said, no veteran player should have any problem with them.

 

[BettyN]

Machamp, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Tauros, Kabutops and Snorlax stand out as good users.

None of the fossils learned Rock Slide in the original games, and Fighting Types sucked back then. Hell, Rock Slide, in general, sucked without STAB.

As for Electric, the best STAB users were Zapdos and Jolteon, and the former was weak to Ice.

There were plenty of other users; they didn't have to be the best ones to take on Lorelei.

And, even a STAB Thunderbolt (Thunder is worthless without Rain Dance) probably wasn't going to OHKO Lapras without major overleveling, which meant eating a Body Slam or Blizzard (90% accurate!) in return.

So? Last I checked Lapras' offensive stats weren't amazing.

And, Freeze mechanics were downright scary back then--No thawing without healing items or getting hit with a Fire move. Better hope you stocked up on Full Heals!

It was only sensible to carry Full Heals and Full Restores. You're talking about a 10% occurence, anyway.

At any rate, Lorelei would have been easier to defeat in Generation II, much like in FRLG.

Fine, you win--Lorelei was the weakest, most useless trainer in existence and didn't deserve to exist, let alone be in GSC. She wasn't worth the spit on Youngster Joey's Rattata, let alone serious trainers like Bruno. There, happy? Now, leave me alone. (Same goes for you, Bolt the Cat.)

 

[Champion Red]

Fine, you win--Lorelei was the weakest, most useless trainer in existence and didn't deserve to exist, let alone be in GSC. She wasn't worth the spit on Youngster Joey's Rattata, let alone serious trainers like Bruno. There, happy? Now, leave me alone. (Same goes for you, Bolt the Cat.)

You're the only person who's said anything remotely similar to this in any thread that we've argued with you on.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Fine, you win--Lorelei was the weakest, most useless trainer in existence and didn't deserve to exist, let alone be in GSC. She wasn't worth the spit on Youngster Joey's Rattata, let alone serious trainers like Bruno. There, happy? Now, leave me alone. (Same goes for you, Bolt the Cat.)

No one's saying that at all.

 

[Lufenium]

Lorelei is still one of my favourite E4 members, and I'm a bit sad that her & Agatha kind of got the heel since FR/LG. I assume they weren't in the Johto games to help highlight the changes that they brought to the series and the timeskip between the generations.

It'd have been a nice return for them to be in HG/SS as post-League opponents (like Cynthia in B/W) but sadly that didn't happen.

 

[Lysson]

The same reason Wallace replaced Steven as champion, GF does what they like. There doesn't even need to be a logical explanation for them.