Why do people hate Gen 4 and 5 so much?

[Bolt Strike]

People couldn't stand Gen III for the longest time, as they couldn't port any of their old 'Mons to the game. There was a lot of hate for Hoenn. Even I have to admit that I wasn't as fond of Gen III as I was the prior ones. But now that it's been a number of years, things have changed. Now we're seeing a huge shift and a lot of fans want to revisit Hoenn. I'm willing to bet that in five or six years, attitudes will shift and a lot of fans will be crying for a Unova remake, as they remember "how awesome it was".

The lack of compatibility with 1st and 2nd gen was somewhat of a temporary problem, sure you couldn't transfer your beloved Pokemon from the older games, but once all of the older Pokemon were redistributed and the original games were remade, this became a dwindling issue. Aside from having a personal attachment to whatever older Pokemon you had, there's not much reason to replay the games.

But the dumbed down gameplay in 5th gen? That issue doesn't go away over time, a poorly designed game is a poorly designed game. And unless their standards change, they won't magically get over it.

 

[hopeandjoy]

What about the gameplay is dumbed down? There is literally no change in mechanics other the the EXP equation, which makes grinding harder. The only difference between Gen IV and V mechanics is speed.

And don't tell me that Gen IV is dumbed down when the special-physical split happened then.

And holy shit, yes people were pissed during Gen III. People thought it was a reboot (despite all of the shoutouts and older Pokémon). This was the end of the Pokémon fad. The seven-year-old me was teased for liking Pokémon because it was for babies - even though I was smack-dab in the middle of the target demographic. I know a crapload of fans who never played Gen III and got back into the series with later generations.

Personally, I love Gen V quite a lot and Gen IV quite a lot less. The Gen IV games, DPPt especially, are very slow and they often suck enjoyment out of the experience for me. However, the mechanics introduced in that generation really shook up the competitive battling scene and has become almost as missed when I play Gen III as Natures and Abilities are when I play Gen II.

 

[Norzan]

On topic: The major problem I had with Gen IV was the sheer amount of Legends you could find in Sinnoh. It was ridiculous: kick over that boulder.... Oh wait, better not! That boulder's actually a Legendary Pokemon. It was over the top madness; we had trios and duos and trio masters and a sea prince and everything in between. Yeah, that was a bit much.

What are you talking about? Gen 4 and 5 had nearly the same aumont of legendaries, Gen 4 has 14, Gen 5 has 13, so that complaint also applies to Gen 5.

 

[Bolt Strike]

What about the gameplay is dumbed down? There is literally no change in mechanics other the the EXP equation, which makes grinding harder. The only difference between Gen IV and V mechanics is speed.

1. The linear region design.
2. The general game difficulty, particularly in the trainer battles. Many trainer battles saw their rosters reduced (gym leaders were limited to 3 Pokemon, Rivals were limited to 4 or 5, Elite 4 were limited to 4) which makes them easy (or rather, easier than usual) and anticlimactic.
3. The games are continually losing their depth in terms of extra features/replay value. 5th gen removed several fairly important game mechanics such as berry planting, proper trainer rematches (like the phone and the Vs. Seeker), and device apps (the Poketch got so many useful apps and then... nothing, they replaced it with a device that does nothing but connect with other players, something you could already do in the games, they just shifted it away from Pokemon Centers). In XY, only the first of those returned, but they also removed any semblance of any sort of sidequest or communication feature. No Secret Bases, no Contests, no Pokeathlon, no Pokestar Studios, no Join Avenue, nothing. Wanna do something besides catch Pokemon and battle? Tough luck, there's not much else to do. Even when you take into account Game Freak's usual development patterns (initial paired versions which are more barebones than mid gen games, constantly swapping out features each generation), the lack of content is still pretty disappointing because new generations are offering less and less overall.

 

[Master Mew]

N was everything about Gen5. Hate denied.

I mentioned this in another thread, but N was advertised everywhere - literally everywhere for marketing purposes. It meant he was popular - one of the main selling points. I still do not believe Gen5 received hate when N was popular to the point of being overhyped - because it means people liked him and the game he was featured in.

N hype = Gen5 hype
N being popular = Gen5 being popular

Pro logic.

Um... what? Just because N was (over)used in advertising campaigns doesn't mean the games were popular - and if we're being technical it doesn't necessarily mean N was popular, either (it means Nintendo believed N to be the games' best selling point). Case in point: Back in 1997 we saw Uma Thurman and Arnold Schwarzenegger all over the place because Warner Brothers believed they were the main selling points of Batman and Robin - and Warner Brothers had the cash to throw advertising in our face at every turn to boot, but everyone in the history of ever 90's 'til now universally agrees that it was the worst Batman film ever.

Advertising doesn't mean a product was popular, it means that the parent company wanted it to be popular.

 

[Osprey]

What about the gameplay is dumbed down? There is literally no change in mechanics other the the EXP equation, which makes grinding harder. The only difference between Gen IV and V mechanics is speed.

1. The linear region design.
2. The general game difficulty, particularly in the trainer battles. Many trainer battles saw their rosters reduced (gym leaders were limited to 3 Pokemon, Rivals were limited to 4 or 5, Elite 4 were limited to 4) which makes them easy (or rather, easier than usual) and anticlimactic.
3. The games are continually losing their depth in terms of extra features/replay value. 5th gen removed several fairly important game mechanics such as berry planting, proper trainer rematches (like the phone and the Vs. Seeker), and device apps (the Poketch got so many useful apps and then... nothing, they replaced it with a device that does nothing but connect with other players, something you could already do in the games, they just shifted it away from Pokemon Centers). In XY, only the first of those returned, but they also removed any semblance of any sort of sidequest or communication feature. No Secret Bases, no Contests, no Pokeathlon, no Pokestar Studios, no Join Avenue, nothing. Wanna do something besides catch Pokemon and battle? Tough luck, there's not much else to do. Even when you take into account Game Freak's usual development patterns (initial paired versions which are more barebones than mid gen games, constantly swapping out features each generation), the lack of content is still pretty disappointing because new generations are offering less and less overall.

While those extra features were pretty fun aspects of the games that had them, people still pitched and complained about them being too "gimmicky". It's impossible to please everyone... although I gotta say, I'd rather have no frickin' Musicals in the games anyways. I still don't understand why they did away with trainer rematches past Gen. IV, because now the only places I can grind are those "facilities (those stadiums in V and Chateau in VI)". As for the linear storyline, I'm pretty much ok with it. I'd rather have a decent, although narrow, story than a "do whatever the heck you want" kind, where the developers are lazy with it and the storyline just gets convoluted. And what makes Gen. V more linear than the rest? I don't really see the difference there.

Also, I never loved that Poketch. I enjoy the fact that I can trade with someone in Germany on a second's notice, without having to dash back to a Pokemon center. That watch, however glorified it may be, never managed to get me a Jirachi, a Mew, or a Shiny Suicune.

 

[Bolt Strike]

While those extra features were pretty fun aspects of the games that had them, people still pitched and complained about them being too "gimmicky".

I've never seen anyone complain about them being gimmicky (aside from 4th gen Contests and Musicals), and they're optional anyway so if you don't like them, you can ignore them. But most of the things I listed were pretty important to the gameplay anyway. No berry planting means that you have a limited amount of berries in the game, limited trainer rematches hinders your ability to train your Pokemon (especially at high levels) and makes it harder to earn money. The Poketch let you keep track of just about anything. And XY really needed something to add replay value and take advantage of the 3DS' gameplay features (primarily Streetpass). The gameplay is definitely worse off for

As for the linear storyline, I'm pretty much ok with it. I'd rather have a decent, although narrow, story than a "do whatever the heck you want" kind, where the developers are lazy with it and the storyline just gets convoluted.

IDK about you, but I'd rather have good gameplay and a mediocre storyline than a good storyline and mediocre gameplay.

And what makes Gen. V more linear than the rest? I don't really see the difference there.

You pretty much answered it in that last quote, the region design constantly railroads you into taking a certain path instead of letting you explore the region and figure out where to go yourself. There's no branching paths, very few optional areas or backtracking, pretty much just one long path from start to finish. The design feels really artificial and lifeless, it doesn't feel like you're on a grand adventure through the region like past regions did.

Also, I never loved that Poketch. I enjoy the fact that I can trade with someone in Germany on a second's notice, without having to dash back to a Pokemon center. That watch, however glorified it may be, never managed to get me a Jirachi, a Mew, or a Shiny Suicune.

I'm not seeing the part where you couldn't do that before (albeit not as quickly).

 

[Almonds]

N was everything about Gen5. Hate denied.

I mentioned this in another thread, but N was advertised everywhere - literally everywhere for marketing purposes. It meant he was popular - one of the main selling points. I still do not believe Gen5 received hate when N was popular to the point of being overhyped - because it means people liked him and the game he was featured in.

N hype = Gen5 hype
N being popular = Gen5 being popular

Pro logic.

Um... what? Just because N was (over)used in advertising campaigns doesn't mean the games were popular - and if we're being technical it doesn't necessarily mean N was popular, either (it means Nintendo believed N to be the games' best selling point). Case in point: Back in 1997 we saw Uma Thurman and Arnold Schwarzenegger all over the place because Warner Brothers believed they were the main selling points of Batman and Robin - and Warner Brothers had the cash to throw advertising in our face at every turn to boot, but everyone in the history of ever 90's 'til now universally agrees that it was the worst Batman film ever.

Advertising doesn't mean a product was popular, it means that the parent company wanted it to be popular.

If Nintendo wanted the games to be popular by advertising N, then that means they had confidence in N's popularity with the public/consumers and overused him for advertising because they believed he'd bring the best results compared to other characters - even than the player characters.

Advertising has a purpose: to make the product best remembered by people and make them eventually spend money on it. If N was hardly memorable, then there was no reason to over-advertise a character who would be forgotten instantly. Maybe N isn't iconic, or as popular as I thought, but he was one of the most recognizable and memorable character from Generation 5, which is why he was used for advertising the games.


But enough with N. My point was, N was an example of a good feature in the Gen 5 games that the majority of the people liked and enjoyed (probably the best thing about Gen5), so even though there could have been other complaints such as bad pokemon design or linear gameplay - hating on a certain feature so much to even completely ignore the good features and hate on the game itself is stupid, especially when the good features are obviously the games' best feature and selling point.

 

[RTA fan]

Also, I never loved that Poketch. I enjoy the fact that I can trade with someone in Germany on a second's notice, without having to dash back to a Pokemon center. That watch, however glorified it may be, never managed to get me a Jirachi, a Mew, or a Shiny Suicune.

That was the GTS.

 

[Phoenixon]

I was gonna write an entire essay on why the Poketch is super-awesome and infinitely more useful than the C-Gear, but I decided that would be off topic, so I'll just give a list of some of the useful apps that it had that I wish could be seen in Pokemon Z/XY2/etc, in one way or another:
-The memo pad (for writing notes)
-Friendship checker
-Berry searcher
-Day care checker
-Move tester (type effectiveness checker)
-Matchup checker (breeding compatibility checker)
So yeah, I basically love the Poketch.

And I don't hate Gen V, I do like some things about it like N, as @Yato; said, and I also liked the majority of Pokemon in it too. And I think B/W's story is the best of all main series Pokemon games. But it's just that I like Gen IV (and most other gens) better than it.

There are things that Gen V did that I found unforgivable the first time playing through the games, and that's why I don't like it as much (I'm pretty sure @Bolt the Cat; and other people here have already said most if not all of these things):
-Lack of Pokemon from previous games (fixed by B2/W2)
-Linear gameplay, no exploration (simply going from one town to the next.
-Lack of Poketch
-While battling, sprites began looking pixelated because of over-magnification
-I hate Team Plasma's outfit (although Neo Plasma is somewhat better)
-Lack of VS Seeker / other rematch systems
-Lack of more Diving locations
-Lack of berries
-Gym leaders only having up to 3 Pokemon, Elite four only up to 4.

A lot of these are personal and just my opinions (e.g. team plasma designs) but I just can't get over it. Anyway, I loved Gen IV and Platinum, HG and SS are some of my favourite Pokemon games of all time, so I think Gen IV>Gen V.

 

[Orion-Sama]

Meh. The Pokétch was great for its time and way better than the PokéGear, but 5th Gen implemented great work-arounds for most of its good apps, making them not really missed.

Day Care checker was replaced with the Day Care man calling out to you when an Egg is ready and you cross his eyesight, meaning the only feature that was really lost was seeing what level they're on. Friendship Checker had to be done the old-fashioned way in BW, but BW2 has Bianca giving you that service anytime you want through the Xtransceiver. Marking Map for roaming Legendaries was replaced by the message boards in all Gates and Tornadus/Thundurus causing a visible weather change in the area they were located at the time.

Honestly, the only app I actually missed was the Counter. Best tool for EV tracking before Super Training was a thing, though PP count serves the same purpose if fighting Pokémon that give the same amount of EVs anyway. The rest... it's stuff I've already memorized (Match-up checker) or easy enough to find on the Internet (Breeding compatibility).

For the rest, I knew already they would remove 3rd Version features like they did in Diamond/Pearl, so... it didn't really deter my enjoyment of the game. Gym Leaders and Elite Four having a Pokémon limit wasn't upsetting either, because the lack of a limit was under-utilized in most games besides maybe RSE and DPP anyway, with several teams repeating the same Pokémon or using lower stages of Pokémon of the same evolution line. Gee, it sure was a thrill to battle Phoebe with her 2 Banettes, 2 Dusclops, and Sableye. Clair had a very "memorable" team with her 3 Dragonairs and Kingdra in Gen 2. At least she got a Gyarados in HGSS to shake things up a bit. Blaine with Arcanine, Rapidash, and their pre-evolved forms was soooo challenging! May as well have only two Pokémon lol. I could go on, but fact stands that very few Gym Leaders even made use of the lack of roster limit. Mostly in Gen 3 and 4, where this repeating issue is mostly unseen. Mostly. There's still Phoebe, Glacia, and Norman, just to name a few.

Conversely, the only instance of this roster repeat since BW was Drayden/Iris, who used Fraxure and Haxorus in their teams, despite having access to the Deino line (Which was probably saved for Ghetsis). BW2 fixed it with Drayden adding Flygon. You can say previous Trainers were also justified with the few amount of certain Pokémon Types at a given point in time or due to other Pokémon of the same type not being in the local Pokédex, but a lot of them lack this justification (Flannery in RS, Norman, Koga, etc.). So yeah. I see no problem with the diminishing roster for the bosses. At the very least it allows their teams to have actual variety. I'd like late game Gym Leaders have an increase of 4 Pokémon limit, and increase the Elite Four back to 5, but as it is, I don't really mind the limited rosters. It's a quality over quantity approach, and makes the teams much less boring.

 

[Phoenixon]

@Orion-Sama What's funny is, I actually didn't know about the day care man calling you or the Bianca thing in BW2.
And while its true that you could check most stuff from the internet, it's more convenient to have it in the game, and it can sometimes be required, if, for example, you don't have access to the internet at a certain place. It's also useful for beginners that are playing Pokemon for the first time.

I also suspected they would remove third version features, but what bothers me more is that these features didn't return in B2/W2.

Finally, I agree that it's quite boring to have Gym Leaders with many of the same Pokemon or Pokemon from the same evo line, but that doesn't have to be the case, especially for B2/W2 and X/Y.
The way I see it, the reason the repeating issue even existed was because of the lack of Pokemon, and that's why Gen 3 and 4 have fewer instances of it appearing. Now there are almost three times as many Pokemon as there were since Gen II, so there is a chance for more variety in each Gym Leader's Pokemon.
New Unova had a huge regional dex of 300, which is much more than the regional dexes of Kanto, Johto, Hoenn or Sinnoh. And yet, the limit to the Gym's roster remained. Don't even get me started on Kalos' 450+ dex. And the eight gym leader still uses only 3 Pokemon, where he could easily have a team of 4 or even 5 unique Ice types.

 

[RTA fan]

Still, an app not in DPPt appears in BW2. You can find out what the abilities of your Pokemon can do out of battle. Cheren helps with this.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Meh. The Pokétch was great for its time and way better than the PokéGear, but 5th Gen implemented great work-arounds for most of its good apps, making them not really missed.

Day Care checker was replaced with the Day Care man calling out to you when an Egg is ready and you cross his eyesight, meaning the only feature that was really lost was seeing what level they're on. Friendship Checker had to be done the old-fashioned way in BW, but BW2 has Bianca giving you that service anytime you want through the Xtransceiver. Marking Map for roaming Legendaries was replaced by the message boards in all Gates and Tornadus/Thundurus causing a visible weather change in the area they were located at the time.

The Day Care Man and the bulletin boards were all right, but not as great as the Poketch. With the former, you can only view them at particular locations, but the Poketch you can use anywhere.

For the rest, I knew already they would remove 3rd Version features like they did in Diamond/Pearl, so... it didn't really deter my enjoyment of the game.

Except these things weren't 3rd game features, they were available in DP and removed in BW1. And while we're used to this as well, most of the things they removed were fairly important to the gameplay and they removed far more than what they added in. 5th gen was the first generation of games where overall you could do less in the games than you could in the previous generation.

Gym Leaders and Elite Four having a Pokémon limit wasn't upsetting either, because the lack of a limit was under-utilized in most games besides maybe RSE and DPP anyway, with several teams repeating the same Pokémon or using lower stages of Pokémon of the same evolution line. Gee, it sure was a thrill to battle Phoebe with her 2 Banettes, 2 Dusclops, and Sableye. Clair had a very "memorable" team with her 3 Dragonairs and Kingdra in Gen 2. At least she got a Gyarados in HGSS to shake things up a bit. Blaine with Arcanine, Rapidash, and their pre-evolved forms was soooo challenging! May as well have only two Pokémon lol. I could go on, but fact stands that very few Gym Leaders even made use of the lack of roster limit. Mostly in Gen 3 and 4, where this repeating issue is mostly unseen. Mostly. There's still Phoebe, Glacia, and Norman, just to name a few.

Conversely, the only instance of this roster repeat since BW was Drayden/Iris, who used Fraxure and Haxorus in their teams, despite having access to the Deino line (Which was probably saved for Ghetsis). BW2 fixed it with Drayden adding Flygon. You can say previous Trainers were also justified with the few amount of certain Pokémon Types at a given point in time or due to other Pokémon of the same type not being in the local Pokédex, but a lot of them lack this justification (Flannery in RS, Norman, Koga, etc.). So yeah. I see no problem with the diminishing roster for the bosses. At the very least it allows their teams to have actual variety. I'd like late game Gym Leaders have an increase of 4 Pokémon limit, and increase the Elite Four back to 5, but as it is, I don't really mind the limited rosters. It's a quality over quantity approach, and makes the teams much less boring.

There's a couple of instances where they didn't need to, yeah, but most of those instances were situations where the regional dex limited their choices or there was a design/balance reason why they didn't include a particular Pokemon when they had the opportunity (for example, while Burgh had plenty of Bug types to choose from in BW2, many of them would not have been suitable for a 3rd gym battle or were encountered far later in the game). There's only a handful of cases in older generations where I can't see any justification for the limited rosters. But like @Phoenixon; said, I can't see that same justification for BW2 and XY where the regional dexes are extremely large and diverse, there were plenty of opportunities for them to add a Pokemon to their lineup that would've fit.

 

[Orion-Sama]

The Day Care Man and the bulletin boards were all right, but not as great as the Poketch. With the former, you can only view them at particular locations, but the Poketch you can use anywhere.

Only really has an effect if you like hatching eggs in a specific location for any reason. I always hatch them in the same route as the Day Care, so there's really no affliction as far as I go. Given how the feature has been handled most of the time and how those routes are usually streamlined to have little obstacles and be very long, it's the most effective way to do things. For the other aspect, sure. It's not as good as you need to be in specific location. However, I highly doubt it bothered most people.

Except these things weren't 3rd game features, they were available in DP and removed in BW1. And while we're used to this as well, most of the things they removed were fairly important to the gameplay and they removed far more than what they added in. 5th gen was the first generation of games where overall you could do less in the games than you could in the previous generation.

Like what?

There's a couple of instances where they didn't need to, yeah, but most of those instances were situations where the regional dex limited their choices or there was a design/balance reason why they didn't include a particular Pokemon when they had the opportunity (for example, while Burgh had plenty of Bug types to choose from in BW2, many of them would not have been suitable for a 3rd gym battle or were encountered far later in the game). There's only a handful of cases in older generations where I can't see any justification for the limited rosters. But like @Phoenixon; said, I can't see that same justification for BW2 and XY where the regional dexes are extremely large and diverse, there were plenty of opportunities for them to add a Pokemon to their lineup that would've fit.

I won't debate that, at least in XY's case. Increasing the teams in BW would've probably led to the same old repetition issue. As said, happened with the last Gym Leader. BW2 could have used an increase, definitely. However, it sort of did with Challenge Mode, where all major Trainers get an additional Pokémon. The problem was in how the feature was handled, so most people didn't see it during the journey. Still, it was there one way or another. Let's hope they fix this feature next time if they bring it back. The Key system was pretty awful at least for the difficulty setting.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Only really has an effect if you like hatching eggs in a specific location for any reason. I always hatch them in the same route as the Day Care, so there's really no affliction as far as I go. Given how the feature has been handled most of the time and how those routes are usually streamlined to have little obstacles and be very long, it's the most effective way to do things. For the other aspect, sure. It's not as good as you need to be in specific location. However, I highly doubt it bothered most people.

Or if you need to multitask and you want to leave Rt. 3 to do something else.

Like what?

I mentioned a lot of these features earlier. The Poketch, trainer rematches, berry planting, things like that.

BW2 could have used an increase, definitely. However, it sort of did with Challenge Mode, where all major Trainers get an additional Pokémon. The problem was in how the feature was handled, so most people didn't see it during the journey. Still, it was there one way or another. Let's hope they fix this feature next time if they bring it back. The Key system was pretty awful at least for the difficulty setting.

Even with Challenge Mode, they could still do some things to bump a few of the rosters up. Skyla could've simply kept her Unfezant instead of replacing it with Skarmory (IDK why they did that when Unfezant is the only one of her Pokemon that actually suits her that well). Drayden just barely had enough Dragon types to get away with having 4-5 Pokemon, adding Altaria or Zweilous to his normal roster. Marlon had plenty of Pokemon to choose from, and could've used a Pokemon to counter Grass types in his normal roster (seriously, you can sweep his entire time with a Lv. 50something Serperior. Absolutely pathetic for an 8th gym leader), like Mantine, Walrein, or Lapras. The only one of the Elite 4 that has a remotely legitimate excuse for not having 5-6 Pokemon is Shauntal (she'd need to reuse her Jellicent in order to have 6 Pokemon, and they already made Jellicent Marlon's main), Grimsley could've used Weavile, Zoroark, Umbreon, Crawdaunt, Drapion (Drapion in particular would've been very fitting for his roster because of his Critical Hit theme), or Mandibuzz, Caitlin could've added Espeon, Starmie, Claydol, Bronzong, Swoobat, or Beheeyem, and Marshal could've added Heracross. There's far too many options for them to hide behind Challenge Mode as an excuse for limited rosters.

 

[Bland Mango]

Agreed with this, had to cheat to get the challenge key early.

The Japanese are a clever bunch, surely the stupidity of putting the game difficulty selection at the end of the game can't have passed them by without notice?

Can't be that hard to put an option at the beginning, are you a novice, average or ace trainer.

Average is what we currently have, novice, you get spoonfed basically, and ace trainer gets a tougher challenge and can skip all the little intros like how to catch a pokemon etc

 

[RTA fan]

it was pretty awesome that you could pick the game's difficulty in B2W2. this meant the more experienced players could get a bit of a kick from the action, and rookies could have easier battles with lower levelled Pokémon.

 

[Phoenixon]

it was pretty awesome that you could pick the game's difficulty in B2W2.

It would have been pretty awesome if you could do it from the beginning of the game, instead of after finishing the game, in which case there's no point to it anyway.

 

[RTA fan]

it was pretty awesome that you could pick the game's difficulty in B2W2.

It would have been pretty awesome if you could do it from the beginning of the game, instead of after finishing the game, in which case there's no point to it anyway.

doesn't that happen if you reset the game and you're still on a different difficulty from Normal?