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Why do people hate SM so much?

R1ke

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SM is a great series. But it's also a different one. Tbh they picked a pretty bad time to shake things up, since so many people loved XYZ but they gave us the opposite. We went from a detailed art style, 'serious' tone and intense battles to a simple style, laid-back tone and a lack of overall battles. Most of the initial backlash came from that, especially in regards to Ash. We'd already seen him regress from DP to BW so everyone was scared that would happen again. Social media certainly didn't help with this either.

Granted, most of this has settled nowadays. It was really that first year where the series was fighting that uphill battle. As more time went on and we got more of its strengths (characters, animation, etc) people warmed up to it. Myself included - I wasn't a massive fan at first but upon revisiting it it's become my favourite series altogether. Hell a lot of people's concerns (like Ash regressing) were disproven, or at least weren't as bad as they thought. It's really one of those series that you gotta give a second chance, especially after knowing how everything plays out. It has its faults but its strengths far outweigh the negatives and I'm glad it's been given the respect it deserves.

Still miss XY's 3D camera tho
 
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takoyaki

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My problem with the Sun and Moon Series is Ash's character design. I preferred the Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh designs.
What about Kalos? I get that it looks more polished but I feel like SM has more of a connection with the early days of the anime in art design, it's kinda more goofy/not as detailed IMO
 

JediMaster362

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What about Kalos? I get that it looks more polished but I feel like SM has more of a connection with the early days of the anime in art design, it's kinda more goofy/not as detailed IMO
True. The Kalos design is also good.

That's precisely my problem with the Sun and Moon design. It’s quite goofy.
 
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Because it deviated so far away from the previous sagas trying to be different but backfired.The artstyle was the biggest turnoff,it reminded me of the Naruto vs Pain fight and early parts of DBS.The only thing I looked forward to seeing in pokemon is battling and there was little to none of that in this series,instead I had to settle with seeing Ash going to......"school".It failed to recapture the humor and charm that was in the OS/Kanto.The league wasn't even legit,most of the participants were just novice,beginners and scrubs picked off the street.Didn't have to battle gym leaders to earn 8 badges.Being able to just enter without doing so defeats the whole purpose of a pokemon league.

So Ash winning this one felt very underwhelming,DP or XY were better options for Ash winning the league.But it's not 100% complete trash it's at least above the Kanto League and debatably the Unova League depending on if you count the Ash vs Kukui Exhibition match as part of the Alola League.So overall I'd have to say the sun & moon series was a failed experiment that should be swept under the rug and forgotten about.It isn't the funniest,it isn't the most pleasing to look at from a visual standpoint and it doesn't have the best battles.There's other sagas that have aspects that were done better than this one.

1ec6ve.jpg
 
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Gengarzilla

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Because it came after XY, which people near-worshipped until the league dropped a hammer on their toes. Frankly I was glad SM shifted away from much of what defined XY because I personally came to dislike that series near the end.

This, unlike XY, was an amusing and laid-back series which didn't take itself too seriously or shovel metric tons of overdone fanservice down our throats and force us to swallow it. If I wanted that crap, with its overly admired protagonist, forced shipping, ninja focus, edgelord rival, nihilistic bad guy, and a serious plot, I'd be watching some other anime. SM was more my thing and I'm still looking back well enough on it thanks to the absolute state of JN right now.
 

Sai

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This, unlike XY, was an amusing and laid-back series which didn't take itself too seriously or shovel metric tons of overdone fanservice down our throats and force us to swallow it. If I wanted that crap, with its overly admired protagonist, forced shipping, ninja focus, edgelord rival, nihilistic bad guy, and a serious plot, I'd be watching some other anime. SM was more my thing and I'm still looking back well enough on it thanks to the absolute state of JN right now.
If that's the case how did you feel about DP?

-Admired protagonist was DP Ash where outside of Paul he was treated as the most mature and competent at that point.

- Edgelord rival fits Paul to a tee

- Nihilistic bad guy and serious plot fits Hunter J and Team Galactic

- Infernapes rage when it was a Chimchar/Monferno and its eyes turned all red and got out of control is the similar Shonen angst stuff you complain about Greninja

- Ash and Dawn's depression arcs in DP after losing was just as heavy handed as Ash's in XY

In any case I see no problem with Ash being competent. We have multiple series now where Ash is treated like a rookie, incompetent or makes similar mistakes. He has multiple regions under his belt so him being strong enough to win a league or battle Elite 4 shouldn't bother anyone.

One reason I also liked SM is because it did play into Ash's strengths by the end of the season.
 

ilteren

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People don't hate SM. If you think they hate, where are those haters now? I cannot see a bunch of SM haters who relates everything to SM for showing their hate in social media nowadays. Hate is a strong word. If somebody asks me which series is the most hated. I say XY. It is easy to find lots of proof in social media. For SM just, people didn't like it, left watching and it was forgotten quickly.

SM was more experimental than previous series. Many fans said obviously they don't like art-style, drastic change of Ash's character and forced comedy in SM. It didn't fit ordinary fans' enjoyment. Trying to find another reason is over-speculation for me. Expecially assuming people don't like it because it came after XY is a bit lame idea. If SM would be aired after any other series like OS, AG, DP or BW feedbacks wouldn't be much different.
 

PaperSplash

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This might come off as overly harsh, but I honestly think part of it is that it was a big reminder to older fans that they aren't the target audience and never have been. It was easier to ignore/forget back in XY, where despite Ash still being 10, he looked, sounded and acted in a way that seemed more mature. That plus things like Alain's presence (pre-league, at least) and there being the closest thing to a genuine romantic subplot involving Ash we'll probably ever get led some people (especially those who haven't watched it in a while) to be under the impression the Pokémon anime finally "grew up". And then SM came as a wake-up call to remind people that no, Ash was still very much 10, he wasn't getting into a relationship anytime soon and the target audience never actually changed.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

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This might come off as overly harsh, but I honestly think part of it is that it was a big reminder to older fans that they aren't the target audience and never have been. It was easier to ignore/forget back in XY, where despite Ash still being 10, he looked, sounded and acted in a way that seemed more mature. That plus things like Alain's presence (pre-league, at least) and there being the closest thing to a genuine romantic subplot involving Ash we'll probably ever get led some people (especially those who haven't watched it in a while) to be under the impression the Pokémon anime finally "grew up". And then SM came as a wake-up call to remind people that no, Ash was still very much 10, he wasn't getting into a relationship anytime soon and the target audience never actually changed.
And XY was made that way to gain the fan base back after BW...
 

Hidden Mew

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And XY was made that way to gain the fan base back after BW...
I highly doubt that was the case. I don't think that the writers would really care that much about the backlash towards BW to the point where they'd design XY specifically to attract long time fans turned off by BW. There's also the fact that not everyone hated BW. It's a common opinion among at least western fans, especially on this site, but plenty of fans liked BW too and they aren't in the wrong for having a different opinion on a show like that.

Besides all that, I still think fans tend to exaggerate how serious XY Ash is and XY as a whole for that matter. I think devoting the last year to Ash-Greninja, the Kalos League and especially Team Flare made fans think that the series was a lot more serious or more typical shonen anime than it actually was.
 

PaperSplash

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I highly doubt that was the case. I don't think that the writers would really care that much about the backlash towards BW to the point where they'd design XY specifically to attract long time fans turned off by BW. There's also the fact that not everyone hated BW. It's a common opinion among at least western fans, especially on this site, but plenty of fans liked BW too and they aren't in the wrong for having a different opinion on a show like that.

Besides all that, I still think fans tend to exaggerate how serious XY Ash is and XY as a whole for that matter. I think devoting the last year to Ash-Greninja, the Kalos League and especially Team Flare made fans think that the series was a lot more serious or more typical shonen anime than it actually was.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply most of what people liked about XY was done on purpose to "win back the crowd" or anything. I believe it was almost entirely an accidental perfect storm of factors that attracted a larger number of fans to that series than usual, especially during the XYZ era.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

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Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply most of what people liked about XY was done on purpose to "win back the crowd" or anything. I believe it was almost entirely an accidental perfect storm of factors that attracted a larger number of fans to that series than usual, especially during the XYZ era.
Let’s be real: giving Ash a love interest for the first time ever and him being a “better” trainer with all fully evolved Pokémon for the first time is going to attract ALOT of people, even outside Pokemon. Romance brings clicks.
 

Kurolegacy

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Let’s be real: giving Ash a love interest for the first time ever and him being a “better” trainer with all fully evolved Pokémon for the first time is going to attract ALOT of people, even outside Pokemon. Romance brings clicks.
Personally speaking, I wasn’t really a fan of the romance angle that they added to Serena. While I enjoy the writers giving Ash girls over the course of the series who have had confirmed crushes on him, I find that by them giving a completely overt one to Serena, it’s basically resulted in that being all that she’s really remembered for rather than her own merits like the other girls. It’s also lead to the especially unfortunate thing of people acting like she and Ash are now destined to get together simply because of them carrying the one-sided crush subplot for the entire series and her kissing him at the end. It’s the kind of extra baggage that ends up making a return appearance for her even harder since either they have to do something with that or ignore it, which turns into a major catch-22.
 

Hidden Mew

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Personally speaking, I wasn’t really a fan of the romance angle that they added to Serena. While I enjoy the writers giving Ash girls over the course of the series who have had confirmed crushes on him, I find that by them giving a completely overt one to Serena, it’s basically resulted in that being all that she’s really remembered for rather than her own merits like the other girls. It’s also lead to the especially unfortunate thing of people acting like she and Ash are now destined to get together simply because of them carrying the one-sided crush subplot for the entire series and her kissing him at the end. It’s the kind of extra baggage that ends up making a return appearance for her even harder since either they have to do something with that or ignore it, which turns into a major catch-22.
I still don't understand why people think that the crush makes it difficult for her to return. I can understand not liking the crush or how it was handled, but calling it extra baggage just seem rather harsh and feeds into the notion that she is just the girl with a crush on Ash. I don't think that ignoring it is a catch-22 either. Aside from the hardcore fans of the pairing, I don't think anyone really expects them to do anything with the kiss in Serena's potential return. They couldn't give Ash a girlfriend in XY and that hasn't changed in Journeys either. The kiss wasn't about setting up a potential "will they or won't they" get together subplot. It was Serena confessing her feelings before leaving and that was basically it.

Honestly, there's more interesting potential in Serena possibly befriending Chloe or being able to relate to Chloe's struggles with finding a goal than in her relationship with Ash, if only because they could actually go somewhere with it.
 

PaperSplash

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Let’s be real: giving Ash a love interest for the first time ever and him being a “better” trainer with all fully evolved Pokémon for the first time is going to attract ALOT of people, even outside Pokemon. Romance brings clicks.
I mean, yeah, that's what ended up happening, but I don't think the primary reason for giving Serena a crush was for clickbait (although they definitely took advantage of it after the fact). I'd say the biggest candidate behind that decision was the "Kalos = France = romance" line of thinking. The X and Y games did something similar by heavily implying Shauna having a crush on the protagonist, although they definitely didn't go anywhere near as far with it.

With regards to Ash's Kalos team and perceived competence, I can see BW's mixed reception being a factor in the different direction they ended up going with XY in that respect, though it's hard to know for sure.
 

Kurolegacy

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I still don't understand why people think that the crush makes it difficult for her to return. I can understand not liking the crush or how it was handled, but calling it extra baggage just seem rather harsh and feeds into the notion that she is just the girl with a crush on Ash. I don't think that ignoring it is a catch-22 either. Aside from the hardcore fans of the pairing, I don't think anyone really expects them to do anything with the kiss in Serena's potential return. They couldn't give Ash a girlfriend in XY and that hasn't changed in Journeys either. The kiss wasn't about setting up a potential "will they or won't they" get together subplot. It was Serena confessing her feelings before leaving and that was basically it.

Honestly, there's more interesting potential in Serena possibly befriending Chloe or being able to relate to Chloe's struggles with finding a goal than in her relationship with Ash, if only because they could actually go somewhere with it.
That kiss basically creates the baggage. The confirmation of those feelings only to leave basically creates a point in which they can’t really go back to status quo without doing something with it. Any previous point where a girl had a crush on him, the fact was never made explicit to him and had been with someone that he was only meeting on that very occasion (or once more in Angie’s case), but with Serena, the crush was so intertwined in her character that you can’t really put the genie back in the bottle especially after she’s made it known. Now obviously they aren’t going to have her become his girlfriend, he’s 10 and not at the point where he’s even thinking about romance but her outright coming out with her feelings towards him isn’t something that can just be ignored without feeling like something of a cop out. Not saying that she can’t return but it’s a matter of how they handle her return.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

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Personally speaking, I wasn’t really a fan of the romance angle that they added to Serena. While I enjoy the writers giving Ash girls over the course of the series who have had confirmed crushes on him, I find that by them giving a completely overt one to Serena, it’s basically resulted in that being all that she’s really remembered for rather than her own merits like the other girls. It’s also lead to the especially unfortunate thing of people acting like she and Ash are now destined to get together simply because of them carrying the one-sided crush subplot for the entire series and her kissing him at the end. It’s the kind of extra baggage that ends up making a return appearance for her even harder since either they have to do something with that or ignore it, which turns into a major catch-22.
Being remembered for being a love interest isn’t a bad thing, and she has plenty of other things going on with her character as well.
 

Kurolegacy

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Being remembered for being a love interest isn’t a bad thing, and she has plenty of other things going on with her character as well.
Being remembered for a love interest isn’t bad but when that’s the majority of what a character is remembered for, it is. When it comes to Misty, she’s remembered as being part of the original trio, May and Dawn for being protagonists who were placed on the same level of importance as Ash in their respective journeys with him, with Dawn even being considered the first co-protagonist, Iris was a bit of a controversial one but with Serena, all people seem to remember her for or talk about when it comes to her revolves around Amourshipping as if nothing beyond her crush on Ash left any real impact on the fandom.
 
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