Why do some people think oras is the worst remake?

[Morningstar]

I can confirm that it does. A whole two regions and not one Mossy or Icy rock in sight?! >_<

Not to mention the lack of electromagnetic zones for Magenezone and Probopass

 

[Bolt Strike]

Fact of the matter is that all of the remakes have been fairly strict with the regional dex, at best they just add in cross gen evolutions and call it a day. We've never had a remake approach the regional dex in the same way as Platinum or BW2 and have larger expansions full of new families to balance things out. Although at this point, we're just about past the point where that would actually be beneficial because the Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos dexes (provided they use the Sinnoh Dex from Platinum and the Unova Dex from BW2) are all fairly balanced regional dexes and don't really need updates, the remakes that have already been done are the ones that really needed dex upgrades. Now they could still probably improve over Platinum's and maybe bump it up to 250ish and add in some more Dragons, but Platinum's is nowhere near as problematic as some of the ones that came before it, most of the variety issues in the Sinnoh Dex were fixed with Platinum's expansion. And BW2 Unova and Kalos' regional dexes are just too large to really benefit from dex expansion, there's more than enough variety to work with in those games to the point where more options might not do them any good.

If they decide to come back to Kanto again though? A major dex upgrade should be a must. There's so many types that were lacking in the original 151 that the Kanto Dex just feels so outdated. Now they could help this a little bit if they throw in all of the cross gen evolutions and Alola forms, that would bring things a bit closer to modern standards, but there's still variety issues even with those upgrades. Ghost only has a whopping 2 families if you include Alola Marowak. 2 families. Back in the day that might've been all right because there weren't that many Ghost types to begin with until about 4th gen, but now? That's nowhere near as acceptable when we've got literally 5 times as many Pokemon to choose from. There were just so many type variety issues like that in the original 151 that even WITH cross gen evolutions and Alola forms the Kanto Dex would still be lacking, that's how bad it is for Kanto. So it needs a little more than just cross gen evos (even if Kanto is missing a lot of them), let's see some new FAMILIES from other games make it in this time.

Back to the topic, that was another thing that disappointed me with ORAS, with Platinum and BW2 taking more of an overhaul with the regional dex I expected ORAS to follow suit since Hoenn had its fair share of variety issues (Ghost, Ice, Dragon especially). But nope, still the same old Hoenn Dex with just a handful of cross gen evos like usual. -.-

 

[henrymidfields]

You...You do realize every region before gen 5 was fake poke Japan, hell kanto is literally kanto same name,

Sure, they weren't entirely carbon copies, but there were lots of cases in Gen 1-2 that had real-life geography. For example, having the Columbia Shuttle in Pewter City, or Lt Surge being from the US. Or, as in the Anime, Misty dreaming about going to France in I think the early stage of the OS arc. There was even a novelization of the Anime by Takeshi Shudo which even made references to the Pacific Theatre, and actual overseas city names and locations. (Unfortunately, all of the pages I've found were in Japanese. But here's one which explains in English: Takeshi Shudo's Anime Novelizations. )

But also you're complaining that oras stuck to Kyushu?

More that RSE had Kyushu instead of a more suitable location for a tropical generation - for example, Hawaii (which eventually became Alola), Guam-Saipan, or coastal Queensland from Brisbane up to Cairns. All of them more visibly tropical in climate, all of them being overseas locations for a Pokémon franchise that is becoming more international, yet all of them also familiar to Japanese audiences too. Kyushu is not what I consider tropical.

Basing your hate on a game because a Japanese company decided to base their japanese game on a Japanese area is ludicrous, and then hating the remake for not doing what new games do (going outside of Japan) is also ludicrous considering it's not something they can change in the remakes. It's not like they randomly chose an area of Japan and said "dis one!" As masudas first game he wanted to base it off an area he grew up in and went to regularally.

To be clear, my main beef is more with the unjustified and blatant artistic license for Hoenn. Sure, Pkmn!Kanto and Johto does not seem to have a sprawling metropolis like RL!Kanto and Kansai do, but the increased amount of un-built areas would be a standard, necessary change for the Pokeverse setting. Sure, Unova looks somewhat more Japanese (and more empty) than New York, but I say that GF probably didn't want to make such big transitions to shock the home audience for the former, and also wanted to concentrate on the more well-known NYC area, instead of less-well known New York State.

Anyway, Here is what I would have done for ORAS as an updated Hoenn.

Spoiler

Firstly, Evergrande City from RSE/ORAS has been expanded into the Evergrande Islands. Two cities would be incorporated, with one of them being the Pokémon League headquarters. In addition, Kinagi [Pacifidlog] City has been reinterpreted as a resort city within the Evergrande Islands instead of being part of Hoenn. Finally, Kanazumi [Rustboro] City has a connection with the Poke-Chugoku via Majimina/Crossport(*), which will become this fanfic's location for the Battle Frontier, in addition to being the Poke-verse's version of Shimonoseki. One can also see construction on the Maglev extension from Goldenrod City at both Rustboro and Crossport.

Majimina/Crossport City: Located on the Shikoku side. It is north of, and is accessible via the Kanom Bridge, Kanmon Tunnel, and Shin-Kanmon Tunnel to/from, Kanazumi [Rustboro] City. Another port city that is more multicultural, with visiting travellers from Korai (Korea) and Tsinguo (China). It is also the home for the Battle Facility, accessible for trainers that obtained all gym badges in any region in Korai, Tsinguo, or Shoyo. (The Battle Resort of ORAS will not appear in this headcanon/fanfiction.) The Treaty of Majimina was held in circa 1895 after the 1st Tsinguo-Shoyoese War (which is the equivalent to the 1st Sino-Japanese War). Majimina is a combination of majiwaru(交わる; cross paths, interact) and minato (港; port). The city is based on Shimonoseki.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Changing the entire geography would've been a tad extreme, but ORAS could definitely have had more improvement over the original. I'm thinking more along the lines of this:

-Expanded Hoenn Dex including all of the postgame Dexnav Pokemon and a few others to round things out.
-Bring back the Battle Frontier in full.
-Instead of the Mirage Spots, have a set of post game islands around the Battle Frontier which have actual cities, routes, and dungeons. A post game route would also open up east of Evergrande City.
-Speaking of Evergrande, that entire island would get an overhaul. Evergrande City would be an actual city, and Victory Road would have a variety of environments like more modern Victory Roads (such as BW2 and XY's) instead of just being a generic cave.
-Mt. Pyre would be redesigned similarly to places like Mt. Coronet and Mt. Silver, where you would proceed through one straight path weaving inside and outside of the mountain instead of having two separate paths (even by Game Freak's logic this really should've been done because the original design isn't very casual friendly).
-The water routes should be a little more detailed and have islands, shallow, landmarks, etc. to make them easier to navigate.
-Bring back the Safari Zone expansion and have it work similarly to the Friend Safari. The remaining starters (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gen) as well as the 6th gen fossils would be catchable here so you can obtain the remaining HAs.
-Desert Underpass returns, has post game fossils, and leads to a secret underground ruins area where you can catch Unown.
-Legendaries are found scattered throughout the region and have actual lore like usual instead of just showing up in random islands because Hoopa.
-Match Call would return as well as gym leader rematches.
-Brendan/May would be rematchable in post game with a full team.

That would turn ORAS from a mediocre and disappointing remake into easily the best remake of all time.

 

[Boss1708]

Yeah... literally every other remake, and every other Pokemon game in existence, could be improved with a list of "improvements" like the above one. But that's hardly a reason to call a game "mediocre and disappointing". Especially a solid game like ORAS.

Heck, HGSS, for example, didn't even bother to restore all of the Kanto locations that GSC nerfed due to lack of cartridge space, even though they were already restored in FRLG. And yet here we are, nitpicking about the barren Desert Underpass not being in ORAS, even though it was not in Ruby/Sapphire in the first place... Same with the Safari Zone expansion from Emerald, who's function the Mirage Spots achieve much better, and on a bigger scale.

In the end of the day, no remake is perfect. The difference is that, while FRLG and HGSS are allowed to have their share of flaws, ORAS is not. ORAS absolutely had to be perfect and not being perfect is considered a fatal flaw by some people on this forum (luckily not many), that must be repeated ad infinitum, while at the same time they omit or belittle all of the many pros of ORAS that vastly outweight the cons. This is unfair, to say the least. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Silktree]

Heck, HGSS, for example, didn't even bother to restore all of the Kanto locations that GSC nerfed due to lack of cartridge space, even though they were already restored in FRLG.

Such as? Silph Co. and the Lavender Tower? Obviously, Game Freak thought it would be repetitive to use them again for strings of battles.

If you mean Cinnabar Island, then its eruption is iconic. If anything, they should have made the volcano visitable. That much I agree with.

Oh, and cartridge space wasn't the issue with GSC. Fan hacks demonstrate that.

 

[Boss1708]

Such as? Silph Co. and the Lavender Tower? Obviously, Game Freak thought it would be repetitive to use them again for strings of battles.

If you mean Cinnabar Island, then its eruption is iconic. If anything, they should have made the volcano visitable. That much I agree with.

Oh, and cartridge space wasn't the issue with GSC. Fan hacks demonstrate that.

Also other important areas like Mt. Moon were left nerfed in HGSS instead of returned to their former glory and size.

As for the fanhacks of GSC, that disappoints me. I always thought GF *had* to nerf Kanto in Gen II in order to fit it on a GBC cartridge. And that is why it never bothered me.

 

[Silktree]

Also other important areas like Mt. Moon were left nerfed instead of returned to their f9rmer glory.

Mt. Moon yes, but that's it. Victory Road was fine considering the long route preceding it.

 

[Boss1708]

Mt. Moon yes, but that's it. Victory Road was fine considering the long route preceding it.

Eh... I wouldn't completely excuse the Victory Road nerf either, but eh...

Iirc we are forgetting the Powerplant nerf as well.

 

[Silktree]

Eh... I wouldn't completely excuse tye Victory Road nerf either, but eh...

Iirc we are forgetting the Powerplant nerf as well.

A Power Plant shouldn't be a deserted place forever...

 

[Boss1708]

A Power Plant shouldn't be a deserted place forever...

That's not a reason to make it tiny and non-explorable in comparison to the original powerplant.

But again, I don't wanna act as if those nitpicks are actual serious flaws of HGSS, (which is what some people constantly do with ORAS...)

 

[Bolt Strike]

Yeah... literally every other remake, and every other Pokemon game in existence, could be improved with a list of "improvements" like the above one. But that's hardly a reason to call a game "mediocre and disappointing".

Heck, HGSS, for example, didn't even bother to restore all of the Kanto locations that GSC nerfed due to lack of cartridge space, even though they were already restored in FRLG. And yet here we are, nitpicking about the barren Desert Underpass not being in ORAS, even though it was not in Ruby/Sapphire in the first place... Same with the Safari Zone expansion from Emerald, who's function the Mirage Spots achieve much better, and on a bigger scale.

In the end of the day, no remake is perfect. The difference is that, while FRLG and HGSS are allowed to have their share of flaws, ORAS is not. ORAS absolutely had to be perfect and not being perfect is considered a fatal flaw, by some people on this forum, that must be repeated ad infinitum, while at the same time ignoring or belittleing all of the many pros of ORAS that far outweight the cons, is unfair, to say the least. In my opinion, of course.

The reason ORAS isn't given a pass is because of how the series progressed since HGSS, particularly with BW2. Unova being developed with a sequel instead of a remake opened up a whole new world of possibilities for multiple regions and the series in general. For their time, FRLG and HGSS were competent remakes but now that Game Freak has shown they can do more with older regions, people expect more from older regions.

Yes, there are other regions that could use the same treatment (Kanto, Johto, and Kalos being the big ones) and I'd like to see those regions get similar improvements, but aside from Kalos (which hasn't had a third version or sequel of any kind), there hasn't been any games for them to have that opportunity. If you notice on Kanto threads here, the general consensus is that for people that even want Kanto remakes, it should be a BW2 style sequel. There's a growing expectation that remakes should be closer to sequels now instead of being copy/paste jobs.

 

[Silktree]

the general consensus is that for people that even want Kanto remakes, it should be a BW2 style sequel.

Your wording is weird. I'd say that most people simply prefer sequels for Kanto, rather than an odd mishmash between a remake and B2W2-style changes.

 

[Esserise]

There's a growing expectation that remakes should be closer to sequels now instead of being copy/paste jobs.

That may be the expectation, but I doubt it's one that Game Freak are going to strain themselves to meet.

As someone who advocates massive overhauls in remakes, it's unfortunate, but I can't say I'm surprised.

Though it makes me curious, Bolt. What radical changes would you implement in Sinnoh's layout, of which you have otherwise always seemed like a big fan, in order to make it more sequel-like? Keeping in mind that the remakes are almost certainly going to follow a more linear path, for one thing, since it was Sinnoh's knotted layout that originally caused them to back away from non-linear paths in every game since.

 

[Bolt Strike]

That may be the expectation, but I doubt it's one that Game Freak are going to strain themselves to meet.

As someone who advocates massive overhauls in remakes, it's unfortunate, but I can't say I'm surprised.

Then they shouldn't have opened that can of worms with BW2. If they can't meet people's expectations then people are going to stop buying.

Though it makes me curious, Bolt. What radical changes would you implement in Sinnoh's layout, of which you have otherwise always seemed like a big fan, in order to make it more sequel-like? Keeping in mind that the remakes are almost certainly going to follow a more linear path, for one thing, since it was Sinnoh's knotted layout that originally caused them to back away from non-linear paths in every game since.

Sinnoh doesn't really need a sequel as much as Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Kalos really, the major reasons for a sequel are to either expand the region, progress the storyline, or provide some other kind of major change, and Sinnoh doesn't really need that. I suppose seeing how Galactic's focus on new sources of energy under Saturn could be interesting to see, but beyond that the only thing Sinnoh could really use is a few more Pokemon in the Sinnoh Dex. Really, they don't need a sequel per se, nothing I suggested for ORAS requires a time skip either, they just need to be flexible enough to make larger scale changes when needed.

And if they linearize Sinnoh they're going to get a lot more grief from the fans because Sinnoh's primary appeal is that it's a large, open ended, and content rich region, if they ruin that they're defeating half of the purpose of remaking it in the first place and that's going to kill off their hardcore audience. If they're smart though, what they should really be doing is going back through Sinnoh and evaluating how they can make it more casual friendly WITHOUT compromising the region's appeal. Otherwise there's really not much point in remaking it in the first place.

 

[Silktree]

Sinnoh's primary appeal is that it's a large, open ended, and content rich region,

I guess that nails the reason why I don't particularly care for the region. Going through it is a very isolating experience.

Still better than Kalos.

 

[Bolt Strike]

I guess that nails the reason why I don't particularly care for the region. Going through it is a very isolating experience.

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. And really, a content rich region shouldn't feel isolating.

 

[Silktree]

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. And really, a content rich region shouldn't feel isolating.

Shouldn't, but did in Sinnoh's case as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Shouldn't, but did in Sinnoh's case as far as I'm concerned.

All right then, what would you do to make the region "less isolating" then?

 

[Silktree]

All right then, what would you do to make the region "less isolating" then?

If I cared, I would brainstorm ideas. But I don't need to be satisfied with every region out there.