Why do some people think oras is the worst remake?

[Bolt Strike]

Trainer´s Eye is also a better rematch system than Emerald´s Match Call imo, since we don´t need to wait for a phone call in order to rematch somebody. We can directly go and rematch whoever we want at our own pace with Trainer´s Eye.

Match Call also had gym leader rematches though, and there was no reason not to bring that back.

Not to mention, Emerald also nerfed Origin´s Cave, and made it permanently inaccessible after the main game is over. ORAS restored it back to it´s full size and made it available to explore in the postgame again.

Emerald had more areas to explore than both RS and ORAS to make up for it though. And it's not like there was anything you really needed from Cave of Origin anyway once the storyline was over, everything that can be caught there can also be caught in other areas.

All things considered, there was always gonna be somebody unsatisfied with ORAS. GF just decided to cater to the majority.

They could make a lot less people unsatisfied by not treating the hardcore fanbase like it doesn't matter. This wasn't an either or scenario in the slightest.

And it´s not like they did nothing for us Emerald fanboys, either. The Delta Episode is full of Emerald homages and nods, for instance.

They may as well have done nothing, because those references are incredibly trivial and don't make up for what was lost at all. None of the actual Emerald content made it in.

Which is unfortunate if you're somebody who started with Emerald, but recreating Emerald wasn't what they were trying to do. They weren't trying to recreate Crystal with HGSS, either, even with as much as people like to say "But Suicune!!!!!!!"

And the Battle Tower. In fact pretty much the only thing that was really missing from Crystal was the Odd Egg. ORAS is missing much, much more from Emerald.

 

[Boss1708]

Match Call also had gym leader rematches though, and there was no reason not to bring that back.

Gym rematches have nothing to do in the debate. Gym Leader Rematches could have been in ORAS with either the Trainer Eye system, or the Match call system. They could´ve been implemented either way.

And what I am saying is that the Trainer´s Eye system is the better way to rematch trainers than Match Call, because you don´t have to wait for a phone call. You can just go and battle whenever you want.

Emerald had more areas to explore than both RS and ORAS to make up for it though.

Except it really doesn´t. ORAS has more areas to explore than Emerald overall. The Mauville City expansion alone adds more areas than the Emerald added areas. And then ORAS added more Underwater sections than Emerald, expanded Scorched slab a lot, expanded Sea Mauville, added a fairly big berry gardenn, and added 41 additional islands, which, added together, add up a lot more new areas than what Emerald had. By far.

And it's not like there was anything you really needed from Cave of Origin anyway once the storyline was over, everything that can be caught there can also be caught in other areas.

Oh, of course. Whatever Emerald does wrong is easily excusable. Whatever ORAS does wrong has to be magnified and nitpicked ad nauseam. And this comes from somebody like you, who constantly begs for more exploration. But suddenly, Emerald making Origin Cave a lot less explorable than it originally was is fine for you... Nice double standards.

They could make a lot less people unsatisfied by not treating the hardcore fanbase like it doesn't matter. This wasn't an either or scenario in the slightest.

Maybe you are right... But you are not the official spokesman of the hardcore Pokemon fanbase though. You would be wise if you learned to speak for yourself, instead of trying to guess what exactly the entirety of the hardcore fanbase thinks. For example, I am a part of the hardcore fanbase as well, and I don´t always feel represented by your opinions.

They may as well have done nothing, because those references are incredibly trivial and don't make up for what was lost at all. None of the actual Emerald content made it in.

Some of it did though, like 3 awesome remixes of some of the best Emerald exclusive music, the ability to collect postgame starters from other regions, the Villain Team taking over the Mossdeep Space Center, and more...

Again, it´s not that I completely disagree with you, it´s just that you should learn to speak for yourself. The Delta Episode might have been a satisfying Emerald homage for more people than you think, and just because it wasn´t for you, it doesn´t mean everybody feels the same way.

 

[Esserise]

Emerald had more areas to explore than both RS and ORAS to make up for it though.

"Explore" doesn't feel like quite the right word to me here. The areas from Emerald that ORAS are missing are:

- Mirage Tower (How much do you really "explore" four small, desolate rooms with a grand total of one item? Mirage Tower is ultimately just a farce to make it slightly more challenging to get the Fossils.)
- Desert Underpass (An empty hallway. You can get more "exploration" by walking down Route 117, for crying out loud.)
- Safari Zone's extension (As I've said before, it's only about as much area as a Mirage Spot or two, and its purpose is made redundant by the post-weather crisis Pokémon.)
- Trainer Hill (Isn't the point of this place less about exploration and more about battling for prizes? I've got to be honest, I never bothered with it myself.)
- Team Magma's Mt. Chimney Hideout (There's not much of a point for this to be kept anyway since they're using the RS version of the storyline.)
- Terra/Marine Cave (There's no more exploration involved here than Mirage Spots. They basically are Mirage Spots, really.)
- Battle Frontier

The three biggest points here - the Battle Frontier, Trainer Hill, and the Magma Hideout - aren't really about exploration. Two are more focused on being facilities that offer battling challenges, and one is just a narrative consequence of Emerald using both teams as villains.

Frankly, the new Scorched Slab offers as much exploration as Mirage Tower. Nothing else that was cut (aside from the three aforementioned areas) was very substantial. And just because you can imagine an alternative use for these areas doesn't mean that they would have materialized in such a way even if they had kept them. Even if they'd retained the Desert Underpass, for instance, it doesn't mean it'd have been more than the bland passageway it was, despite it being hypothetically possible to renovate it.

Hell, ORAS offer a new underwater trench on Routes 129 and 130 that should scratch the "I really want to walk down a hallway" itch of anyone who's missing the Underpass. And there'll still be more to do in that trench than in the Underpass.

They may as well have done nothing, because those references are incredibly trivial and don't make up for what was lost at all. None of the actual Emerald content made it in.

Wallace's Champion team is still there as a bonus
The Johto Starters from Birch are still there (with the addition of the Sinnoh and Unova Starters)
Rayquaza still gets a storyline (and, frankly, a much more worthwhile one than the pathetic deus ex machina we saw in Emerald) which involves the villains taking over the Space Center

I agree that there's good stuff that's missing as well (Gym Leader rematches, and the missing Double Battle Trainers, plus the Trainer rosters in general), but "trivial references" to Emerald would be like using Vigoroth for the moving company rather than Machoke. They retained some of the more substantial bits, too.

And the Battle Tower. In fact pretty much the only thing that was really missing from Crystal was the Odd Egg. ORAS is missing much, much more from Emerald.

Crystal also changed less from GS than Emerald did from RS, so there was less of a distinction between the two. To put it another way, a GS remake is already 80% of the way to being a Crystal remake just by virtue of its mere existence. With RS and Emerald, there are more instances in which the developers have to choose one version or the other.

 

[Bolt Strike]

- Mirage Tower (How much do you really "explore" four small, desolate rooms with a grand total of one item? Mirage Tower is ultimately just a farce to make it slightly more challenging to get the Fossils.)
- Desert Underpass (An empty hallway. You can get more "exploration" by walking down Route 117, for crying out loud.)

It's still more areas with more to do, which automatically makes it better.

- Safari Zone's extension (As I've said before, it's only about as much area as a Mirage Spot or two, and its purpose is made redundant by the post-weather crisis Pokémon.)

Not really. The extension would've been a great place for a Friend Safari like feature, and with the Safari Zone moving away from the traditional format, it pretty much needed a new purpose anyway.

- Team Magma's Mt. Chimney Hideout (There's not much of a point for this to be kept anyway since they're using the RS version of the storyline.)

Actually, let's talk about the decision to use RS' storyline because as is ORAS really doesn't make use of the other version's characters and while they do need to help sell both versions, it doesn't really make much sense for the other team to not be much of a factor. You really don't get much of a sense of conflict between the two teams because the other team is just sort of there and doesn't do anything to accomplish their goals. Emerald was a bit more realistic in that sense, both teams were set up to be antagonists and you had to deal with both and sort things out.

Wallace's Champion team is still there as a bonus

Fighting Wallace's Champion team is pretty low on the list of Emerald things I wanted back (and I'm pretty sure that's the case for many other Emerald fans too). It's just a battle, not really a major loss. Hell, it would've been better if they'd have just brought back Juan to fill Wallace's role in the Delta Episode, then at the very least they'd have also made use of an extra character from Emerald.

Rayquaza still gets a storyline (and, frankly, a much more worthwhile one than the pathetic deus ex machina we saw in Emerald) which involves the villains taking over the Space Center

It does, but it gets robbed of its role as a mediator in Groudon and Kyogre's conflict, it just served as a glorified spaceship. Emerald's storyline may not have had the satisfying climax as RS and ORAS, but at least Emerald's storyline puts Rayquaza's lore into action.

I agree that there's good stuff that's missing as well (Gym Leader rematches, and the missing Double Battle Trainers, plus the Trainer rosters in general), but "trivial references" to Emerald would be like using Vigoroth for the moving company rather than Machoke. They retained some of the more substantial bits, too.

They're both the same, references in themselves are pretty trivial, it's like they only half-heartedly "listened to fans" without actually doing anything. It's the content that matters, the whole point of a remake is to experience a game all over again, so if the content from Emerald is missing, how can its fans have that same experience all over again?

Crystal also changed less from GS than Emerald did from RS, so there was less of a distinction between the two. To put it another way, a GS remake is already 80% of the way to being a Crystal remake just by virtue of its mere existence. With RS and Emerald, there are more instances in which the developers have to choose one version or the other.

The majority of Emerald's content doesn't really conflict with RS, they're just extra additions, so that's not really an excuse. All that really excuses is Rayquaza not showing up during the weather crisis and having Steven as the Champion instead of Wallace. Everything else, Trainer Hill, Mirage Tower, Desert Underpass, the Battle Frontier, the Safari Zone expansion, those don't really replace anything, they add onto RS' content.

 

[Almonds]

I doubt many fans wanted to see Wallace as Champion in ORAS, instead of Steven. I know I didn´t...

Steven as the champion makes way more sense storywise considering his involvement. And Emerald did no justice by making him a one-time moss battle D:

All things considered, there was always gonna be somebody unsatisfied with ORAS. GF just decided to cater to the majority. And it´s not like they did nothing for us Emerald fanboys, either. The Delta Episode is full of Emerald homages and nods, for instance.

That bolded sentence basically. Every game falls under that rule. It's mostly going to appeal to the majority because majority=more money. Of course it would be great if they can afford to put in more content to satisfy the minority as well - but no such perfect game exists. Pokemon is as close as perfect a game can get by appealing to almost everyone in the world.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

It's still more areas with more to do, which automatically makes it better.

1) An empty hallways and four small islands with only one item between them is hardly more to do.
2) By the same logic, including an area where players just solve algebra equations would be an improvement to the game because it's another area with more to do.

 

[Esserise]

It's still more areas with more to do, which automatically makes it better.

No, not really. You don't really do anything in the Mirage Tower. It's just an excuse to throw in another Mach Bike puzzle, which a) I'm not even sure how that would work in ORAS what with the circle pad and all, and b) means that it is in fact anti-exploration, since the function of the place actively encourages you to zip through the rooms as fast as possible.

Saying "more=better" is overly simplistic here, when there are other factors involved in the decision like, "Do we want to spend time on this if it adds very little?" and "Well, since we're making RS remakes rather than Emerald, maybe we feel it should be closer to RS."

Not really. The extension would've been a great place for a Friend Safari like feature, and with the Safari Zone moving away from the traditional format, it pretty much needed a new purpose anyway.

Again, just because you can imagine a new alternative use for it, doesn't mean that such an option was ever on the table to begin with. If they'd kept the extension, it is quite possible that it would have just been extra space in the Safari Zone, functioning exactly like the rest of it. Though it should be said that I do like your idea here.

Actually, let's talk about the decision to use RS' storyline because as is ORAS really doesn't make use of the other version's characters and while they do need to help sell both versions, it doesn't really make much sense for the other team to not be much of a factor. You really don't get much of a sense of conflict between the two teams because the other team is just sort of there and doesn't do anything to accomplish their goals. Emerald was a bit more realistic in that sense, both teams were set up to be antagonists and you had to deal with both and sort things out.

Following RS and using only one team as antagonists allows them to put more focus on the Primal that's on the cover, though. I'd guess that's probably the main reason for it, aside from this not being Delta Emerald. Either version having its own evil team was one of the more noteworthy gimmicks of the original RS, so even if it's less intuitive than them both being villainous, I can't see them not sticking with RS on this one.

Although I'm not really expecting ?D?P's Cyrus to summon both dragons and be stopped by Giratina, either.

Fighting Wallace's Champion team is pretty low on the list of Emerald things I wanted back (and I'm pretty sure that's the case for many other Emerald fans too). It's just a battle, not really a major loss. Hell, it would've been better if they'd have just brought back Juan to fill Wallace's role in the Delta Episode, then at the very least they'd have also made use of an extra character from Emerald.

It's still at least one Trainer roster from Emerald that we get to keep. Even without it, I'd say it's no more a loss than the Underpass or Mirage Tower (which in terms of space are made up for by the Scorched Slab and the 129/130 trench).

(Actually, now that I think about it, reallocating the space from Mirage Tower/Desert Underpass to the Scorched Slab and the 129/130 trench is kind of brilliant. The two Emerald areas serve little purpose on their own; meanwhile, even though *I* certainly liked the quirkiness of the original Scorched Slab, it's more than fair to say they could have done more with it, and people didn't seem very keen about them pulling that stunt again with the Chamber of Emptiness. So, flesh out the Slab a bit more, and make it a dungeon for Heatran. And as to the new trench, we did need a bit more to do underwater if the games were going to be as water-based as before. So now we get more use out of Dive, along with some new diving Trainers and hidden item searching.)

It does, but it gets robbed

That's a bit dramatic.

of its role as a mediator in Groudon and Kyogre's conflict, it just served as a glorified spaceship. Emerald's storyline may not have had the satisfying climax as RS and ORAS, but at least Emerald's storyline puts Rayquaza's lore into action.

So what? Its role as a mediator is boring, and is a built-in anticlimax. ORAS didn't even "rob" it of that role, they just kept it restrained to the textual backstory so that we didn't waste any time seeing it growl at Groudon and Kyogre to resolve the crisis. We can all pretty much picture what it looks like when Rayquaza pacifies them anyway (largely because Emerald happened and we already saw such a sequence in all its "glory"), so it's more useful for ORAS to leave that bit in Zinnia's exposition sequence while adding (not replacing) a new dimension to it as a protector of the atmosphere, which is a more appropriate for a climactic plot. Not to mention that the new lore for Rayquaza is all about how it became the world's first Mega Evolution in order to stop Groudon and Kyogre, and its Mega Evolution is very much a tangible manifestation of that storyline. It absolutely has the power spoken of in the legend, and it can uniquely Mega Evolve without a Mega Stone.

Emerald gives us all of a single paragraph saying that Rayquaza is a Pokémon that calms Groudon and Kyogre, which culminates in the lazy cop-out of us waking it up so it can go snarl at the two and save the day for us. ORAS construct an elaborate backstory about how it saved Hoenn from disaster many times in the past, from both the Primals and the meteors, and came to be worshiped by the Draconids. Which all leads to the climax in which it fulfills the legend, except this time, we don't just sit by and let it do its thing. We're right up there with it, and we get to use it and its Mega Evolution hands-on to battle Deoxys.

the whole point of a remake is to experience a game all over again, so if the content from Emerald is missing, how can its fans have that same experience all over again?

Except ORAS aren't seeking to recreate the Emerald experience, and don't ever claim to be. Emerald fans probably just shouldn't be buying Ruby/Sapphire remakes with the expectation that what they're buying is implicitly an Emerald remake.

Everything else, Trainer Hill, Mirage Tower, Desert Underpass, the Battle Frontier, the Safari Zone expansion, those don't really replace anything, they add onto RS' content.

What the Tower/Underpass/Expansion add is negligible, as I've said several of times now, and the Battle Frontier was obviously its own issue (it being one of the few where I feel the controversial reaction was warranted).

Trainer Hill is a notable exclusion, but isn't its purpose (at least as I understand it to be battling with a time limit for prizes) more-or-less covered by the Mauville Food Court? Not to say it's the exact same thing, of course, but just that ORAS offer something similar.

Personally, the only areas where I think they really missed out by eschewing the Emerald content are the Battle Frontier, the Gym Leader rematches, and the Trainer rosters. Everything else? Meh. Either not really a big deal to begin with or made redundant by something else that's more streamlined, and ORAS offer a decent amount of new stuff as well.

 

[Bolt Strike]

That bolded sentence basically. Every game falls under that rule. It's mostly going to appeal to the majority because majority=more money. Of course it would be great if they can afford to put in more content to satisfy the minority as well - but no such perfect game exists. Pokemon is as close as perfect a game can get by appealing to almost everyone in the world.

Except if they're limiting themselves to one demographic, they're not following that mindset. To have a majority and therefore more money, they need several demographics. They want to make money? How about appealing to the casuals AND the competitive gamers AND the exploration crowd, etc. Just because they can't appeal to every single person doesn't mean they need to limit themselves to one audience. If that audience would be interested in the core concept, why not appeal to them?

No, not really. You don't really do anything in the Mirage Tower. It's just an excuse to throw in another Mach Bike puzzle, which a) I'm not even sure how that would work in ORAS what with the circle pad and all, and b) means that it is in fact anti-exploration, since the function of the place actively encourages you to zip through the rooms as fast as possible.

A Mach Bike puzzle is still more than the average ORAS area offers, most of which are either small or overly simplified.

Again, just because you can imagine a new alternative use for it, doesn't mean that such an option was ever on the table to begin with. If they'd kept the extension, it is quite possible that it would have just been extra space in the Safari Zone, functioning exactly like the rest of it. Though it should be said that I do like your idea here.

It's a sad day in the industry when fans have better ideas than professional developers.

Following RS and using only one team as antagonists allows them to put more focus on the Primal that's on the cover, though. I'd guess that's probably the main reason for it, aside from this not being Delta Emerald. Either version having its own evil team was one of the more noteworthy gimmicks of the original RS, so even if it's less intuitive than them both being villainous, I can't see them not sticking with RS on this one.

They can still do that without compromising the realism and removing the conflict between Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza from the equation. Maybe Groudon/Kyogre fight each other and one wins out using Primal Reversion. Then later on the other one also gains its Primal form and then Rayquaza has to step in.

It's still at least one Trainer roster from Emerald that we get to keep. Even without it, I'd say it's no more a loss than the Underpass or Mirage Tower (which in terms of space are made up for by the Scorched Slab and the 129/130 trench).

Thing is that the loss of an area is pretty huge, because along with it you can also lose Pokemon, trainers, and features depending on what's there. One battle doesn't really compare.

So what? Its role as a mediator is boring, and is a built-in anticlimax. ORAS didn't even "rob" it of that role, they just kept it restrained to the textual backstory so that we didn't waste any time seeing it growl at Groudon and Kyogre to resolve the crisis. We can all pretty much picture what it looks like when Rayquaza pacifies them anyway (largely because Emerald happened and we already saw such a sequence in all its "glory"), so it's more useful for ORAS to leave that bit in Zinnia's exposition sequence while adding (not replacing) a new dimension to it as a protector of the atmosphere, which is a more appropriate for a climactic plot. Not to mention that the new lore for Rayquaza is all about how it became the world's first Mega Evolution in order to stop Groudon and Kyogre, and its Mega Evolution is very much a tangible manifestation of that storyline. It absolutely has the power spoken of in the legend, and it can uniquely Mega Evolve without a Mega Stone.

Emerald gives us all of a single paragraph saying that Rayquaza is a Pokémon that calms Groudon and Kyogre, which culminates in the lazy cop-out of us waking it up so it can go snarl at the two and save the day for us. ORAS construct an elaborate backstory about how it saved Hoenn from disaster many times in the past, from both the Primals and the meteors, and came to be worshiped by the Draconids. Which all leads to the climax in which it fulfills the legend, except this time, we don't just sit by and let it do its thing. We're right up there with it, and we get to use it and its Mega Evolution hands-on to battle Deoxys.

No, it's not an anti-climax. They can make it more interesting by having Rayquaza actually battle the two instead of limiting itself to a cutscene, which would be a lot more appropriate to the plot if Rayquaza actually had some physical involvement with the other mascots instead of just being limited to a lore dump.

Except ORAS aren't seeking to recreate the Emerald experience, and don't ever claim to be. Emerald fans probably just shouldn't be buying Ruby/Sapphire remakes with the expectation that what they're buying is implicitly an Emerald remake.

Why shouldn't it try to recreate Emerald? Emerald is about as old as RS and that was part of the Hoenn experience, if ORAS isn't providing Emerald nostalgia then what is? Emerald isn't playable on any current hardware, and it's not on VC (and probably won't be until ORAS itself is ancient history), so where do they get their Emerald fix from? Making ORAS purely a RS experience

Personally, the only areas where I think they really missed out by eschewing the Emerald content are the Battle Frontier, the Gym Leader rematches, and the Trainer rosters. Everything else? Meh. Either not really a big deal to begin with or made redundant by something else that's more streamlined, and ORAS offer a decent amount of new stuff as well.

Again, not really a good philosophy for them to deliberately limit ORAS like that. ORAS is 10 years younger, on newer and more powerful hardware, and far removed from any kind of Emerald release. It should unquestionably be superior to all three versions since it'll be many people's only Hoenn experience for a while.

 

[Almonds]

Except if they're limiting themselves to one demographic, they're not following that mindset. To have a majority and therefore more money, they need several demographics. They want to make money? How about appealing to the casuals AND the competitive gamers AND the exploration crowd, etc. Just because they can't appeal to every single person doesn't mean they need to limit themselves to one audience. If that audience would be interested in the core concept, why not appeal to them?

Because the core/hardcore audience are going to buy the games regardless of how the games turn out to be. You can't deny this: despite complaining about GF not doing much for the minority fans, despite complaining about GF favoring casuals way too much, there's always going to be those fans who will buy pokemon games no matter what. Complain for a thousand years and they'll still buy those games. GF didn't need to limit themselves to a specific audience - it's just that the fans are so loyal that GF doesn't have to impress the minor audience who'd always buy their products.

And to any responses such as "but GF can surely add more", "GF can do better", "GF has to listen to the competitive side", "appealing to the casuals isn't going to work in the long run":
I'm pretty sure GF knows more about how business and marketing works for the actual world, better than any of us, which is why they make those choices (and sacrifice). We can complain as a consumer about an unsatisfying product, but we can't change how they run their company. (Unless, again, if it's a "Hoenn Confirmed"-level demand and maybe they'll take note of it)

GF can certainly do better... but if you want those changes very very much, I'd suggest that you send a message to GF about the issue you think might hurt their business and see how they respond. This is not sarcasm: I'm serious. I read your blogs and most of your posts in the video game section up till now and what you've been saying has continued for quite a long time - going around in circles about the same issue over and over about the exploration/competitive content becoming null with each game. Have you considered taking action and expressing your opinions to GF? It won't hurt to try, and who knows - maybe they'd like your idea.

 

[Esserise]

A Mach Bike puzzle is still more than the average ORAS area offers, most of which are either small or overly simplified.

Well yeah, but I think that's more of a general trend with the series as of late rather than something specific to ORAS. Both XY and SM are pretty simple to traverse as well.

It's a sad day in the industry when fans have better ideas than professional developers.

This is just being morose at the expense of having a point.

They can still do that without compromising the realism and removing the conflict between Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza from the equation. Maybe Groudon/Kyogre fight each other and one wins out using Primal Reversion. Then later on the other one also gains its Primal form and then Rayquaza has to step in.

No, it's not an anti-climax. They can make it more interesting by having Rayquaza actually battle the two instead of limiting itself to a cutscene, which would be a lot more appropriate to the plot if Rayquaza actually had some physical involvement with the other mascots instead of just being limited to a lore dump.

Sounds overwrought to me, but that's also how I'd describe the Emerald plot as it is. It'd work if this were a disaster movie, but that's not the medium we're dealing with. Personally, I find the "Act I - Primal Reversion, Act II - Rayquaza" structure of ORAS to be cleaner and more elegant. It gives both the game's Primal and Rayquaza each a good amount of spotlight without them having to compete with one another for it by sharing the screen (and avoids making the Primal look like a wimp when Rayquaza shuts it the hell down). Plus, we get to canonize the Deoxys-in-space rumors.

Thing is that the loss of an area is pretty huge, because along with it you can also lose Pokemon, trainers, and features depending on what's there. One battle doesn't really compare.

That point would carry a lot more weight if we hadn't actually made a net gain in terms of Trainers, items, and Pokémon from the areas that ORAS revised/added in exchange for the loss of the Underpass/Mirage Tower/SZ extension.

so where do they get their Emerald fix from?

From nowhere. They're not obligated to give anybody their "Emerald fix," and nobody is entitled to one. Emerald, like all third versions, is inherently just a bonus edition anyway. It's not the game that they worked hardest on nor is it the one they made even remotely the most money off of.

It should unquestionably be superior to all three versions since it'll be many people's only Hoenn experience for a while.

By and large, it was a positive experience. Perfect? No, but if you're waiting for that, I'd advise not holding your breath.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Well yeah, but I think that's more of a general trend with the series as of late rather than something specific to ORAS. Both XY and SM are pretty simple to traverse as well.

True, but with ORAS it's more of an issue because it detracts from the original experience. XY and SM were designed from the ground up to be like that, but RSE had essentially the exact opposite philosophy, it was open ended, it was difficult

This is just being morose at the expense of having a point.

The point is that why should we give Game Freak the time of day if they're a constant disappointment and the fans have a better vision for this franchise than they do? We pay Game Freak to make games because we believe they can make a game that's better (or at least perceived as better) than something anyone else could make, and right now I'm not seeing that level of quality.

That point would carry a lot more weight if we hadn't actually made a net gain in terms of Trainers, items, and Pokémon from the areas that ORAS revised/added in exchange for the loss of the Underpass/Mirage Tower/SZ extension.

Not much of one though, and certainly not one that you would expect from 3 generations later into this series.

From nowhere. They're not obligated to give anybody their "Emerald fix," and nobody is entitled to one. Emerald, like all third versions, is inherently just a bonus edition anyway. It's not the game that they worked hardest on nor is it the one they made even remotely the most money off of.

Who views third versions as bonus editions? Third versions are often associated with the original pair. Think about it, how many times in discussion is there ever a distinction between RB and Yellow, between GS and Crystal, or between RS and Emerald? Not often, usually the three versions are associated together and seen as the same game, for the most part all games of the same region are associated together (maybe a little less so with BW and BW2 because they're sequels, but in general this holds true). I don't think very many people expected ORAS to just be RS, they likely looked at it as Hoenn in general and expected elements from all three versions.

By and large, it was a positive experience. Perfect? No, but if you're waiting for that, I'd advise not holding your breath.

Perfection? Who said anything about perfection? No game can ever be truly perfect, how could anyone expect that? What I'm expecting is progression, not perfection, and ORAS (and several other recent Pokemon games) is in many ways one step forward and two steps back.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Because the core/hardcore audience are going to buy the games regardless of how the games turn out to be. You can't deny this: despite complaining about GF not doing much for the minority fans, despite complaining about GF favoring casuals way too much, there's always going to be those fans who will buy pokemon games no matter what. Complain for a thousand years and they'll still buy those games. GF didn't need to limit themselves to a specific audience - it's just that the fans are so loyal that GF doesn't have to impress the minor audience who'd always buy their products.

That's not quite true, fanbases can erode over divisive decisions made by the developers, we've seen it with Sonic most notably, which has had games that appeal to various gameplay elements (speed, platforming, exploration) and has attracted different fanbases as a result. Game Freak's recent focus on the casuals is similar and could easily fracture the series' fanbase over time. Even more so with Game Freak's knack for phasing features in and out of the series there's going to be a lot more divisiveness over which games are better and why.

It caters to the hardcore fanbase because it is the most competitive friendly and breeder friendly game to date (and that is the thing the majority of hardcore fans buy the games for.)

Catching the legendaries sure wasn't, many of the major legendaries (the Primals, Rayquaza, and Deoxys especially) were some of the most SR-unfriendly I've ever seen thanks to having successive battles and cutscenes after them.

It caters to story oriented players by having one of the more interesting stories in the franchise, with fleshed out characters and region lore.

Debatable. I didn't find ORAS' story to be too interesting.

It caters to explorers because it is a Hoenn game and Hoenn is very explorable already

Less so than the original games. Plus a lot of exploration comes from the post game when the entire region is open to you, and ORAS offers decidedly little in that department.

It caters to collectors by allowing us to catch every single Pokemon between XY and ORAS, and by having a more fun way of catching them all thanks to DexNav

Eh, it kind of throws them at you with little effort, and there's actually less Pokemon in this game than some previous generation games.

 

[Boss1708]

It is funny how some fans are so worried about ORAS not catering to enough portions of our fandom and continuosly repeating how it could affect tye game's sales, when we already know that it didn't affect sales since...you know... ORAS outsold every previous remake, third version and sequel. Despite being on a console that sold 3 times less than the DS, and also less than the GB Advance.

And, for the record ORAS does cater to almost everybody already...

It caters to the casuals because it was made to be very player friendly.

It caters to the hardcore fanbase because it is the most competitive friendly and breeder friendly game to date (and that is the thing the majority of hardcore fans buy the games for.)

It caters to story oriented players by having one of the more interesting stories in the franchise, with fleshed out characters and region lore.

It caters to explorers because it is a Hoenn game and Hoenn is very explorable already

It caters to collectors by allowing us to catch every single Pokemon between XY and ORAS, and by having a more fun way of catching them all thanks to DexNav

It caters to side content fans by having veried content like Super Secret Bases, Contests, Amie, Super Trainin, Soaring, etc... on top of tye battling and catching aspect of Pokemon

 

[Almonds]

That's not quite true, fanbases can erode over divisive decisions made by the developers, we've seen it with Sonic most notably, which has had games that appeal to various gameplay elements (speed, platforming, exploration) and has attracted different fanbases as a result. Game Freak's recent focus on the casuals is similar and could easily fracture the series' fanbase over time. Even more so with Game Freak's knack for phasing features in and out of the series there's going to be a lot more divisiveness over which games are better and why.

I don't see Sonic on the same level as Pokemon, though. Why? Because they're different games. They're created by different developers. They have different content and appeal differently to people because they are different games. Pokemon is not Sonic. And if Pokemon tried doing what Sonic did, there's no guarantee it would have resulted in this massive franchise celebrating 20 years, having the entire world congratulate it. I don't know how big the Sonic fandom is, but the non-gaming people I met don't know much about Sonic except for the blue guy (many don't even know what Sonic even is), whereas pretty much everyone on earth knows what Pokemon is. I have my complaints about Pokemon as well, but their business is a success so they obviously made the best choice for best profit.

Also, you're ignoring my suggestion on sending GF a message regarding what you think the games should be like. Seriously, if GF thinks your ideas would be able to make huge profit, they'd consider it. You aren't going to get what you want if you don't speak what you want to the people who create those things. The chance they'd apply your ideas isn't 0%, so why not try?

 

[Esserise]

but RSE had essentially the exact opposite philosophy, it was open ended, it was difficult

Which is a philosophy that they've moved away from. They're not going to return to it just because it's a remake. If anything, they're going to view the remake as a chance to trim down on that stuff. This all dates back to their decision to make Unova very linear - kids were giving up on earlier games like DPP without finishing them, and Game Freak didn't want to see that. That probably convinced them that having a more open-ended/difficult style was a flaw in their approach.

The point is that why should we give Game Freak the time of day if they're a constant disappointment and the fans have a better vision for this franchise than they do? We pay Game Freak to make games because we believe they can make a game that's better (or at least perceived as better) than something anyone else could make, and right now I'm not seeing that level of quality.

If you want to stop buying, you are entirely capable of doing so. You haven't seemed very happy with the games for quite a while now. Meanwhile, the majority of the fandom has been generally happy with the last few releases. There's criticism of some things, but if you were to say that they've been a "constant disappointment" for most people, it would be ridiculous. In your opinion, sure, and you're perfectly entitled to that, but your personal assessment doesn't match the consistently positive reception they've been getting overall.

Not much of one though, and certainly not one that you would expect from 3 generations later into this series.

Maybe, but your expectations are strongly focused on a very specific approach. For instance, you've criticized the Mirage Spot islands for being areas that are low on exploratory value. That's significant... if one cares as deeply about free-range exploration as you do. For many others, your criticism could very well be missing the much more exciting headline of "Holy moly, we can actually fly over the region now!" Or maybe some people aren't hung up about the post-game areas not being a contiguous landmass, and are fine with having a few daily islands instead. If you remove that part of the issue, then the islands give a fair amount of new ground to cover.

Who views third versions as bonus editions? Third versions are often associated with the original pair. Think about it, how many times in discussion is there ever a distinction between RB and Yellow, between GS and Crystal, or between RS and Emerald? Not often, usually the three versions are associated together and seen as the same game, for the most part all games of the same region are associated together (maybe a little less so with BW and BW2 because they're sequels, but in general this holds true). I don't think very many people expected ORAS to just be RS, they likely looked at it as Hoenn in general and expected elements from all three versions.

You misunderstand me here. I'm not referring to how fans group them together out of convenience. I'm talking about how Game Freak would perceive them. Third versions, as development projects, are separate from the original pair, and they're far less intensive. They are just bonus editions that they put out when they need padding. They aren't really necessary beyond that purpose; the original pairs already made the first impressions and raked in most of the money and press for that region's experience. The extra features and areas that third versions offer are exactly that - extra stuff. Stuff that you can obviously make a functional, extremely successful game without. And since, from their end, the RS project outsold the Emerald project by almost 10,000,000 copies, I'd say that they're not entirely unjustified in viewing Emerald as a more minor entry. It was big enough to deserve the affectionate references that it got, but it was a small ember compared to RS, and its only significant contribution to the series was the Battle Frontier, which they're obviously not interested in anymore.

Perfection? Who said anything about perfection? No game can ever be truly perfect, how could anyone expect that? What I'm expecting is progression, not perfection, and ORAS (and several other recent Pokemon games) is in many ways one step forward and two steps back.

Your expectation is for remakes to be "unquestionably superior to all three versions."

There's a LOT of subjectivity built into that, though. ORAS may not live up to your ideal vision of Hoenn remakes, but are we really going to sit here and say that ORAS aren't superior to RSE? There are more features, more things to do, more Pokémon, a vastly better-written storyline (regardless of whether one liked it in comparison to RSE or not; I'm speaking strictly about technical writing aspects like giving clear exposition, natural-sounding dialogue, characterization, etc.), and many things are made more accessible than before.

Like, I myself still prefer Crystal over HGSS, but I'm not seriously going to try to argue that HGSS aren't unquestionably superior in almost every regard other than the few niche areas in which I prefer Crystal. If I did, it rather would feel like I were expecting HGSS to be perfect.

Catching the legendaries sure wasn't, many of the major legendaries (the Primals, Rayquaza, and Deoxys especially) were some of the most SR-unfriendly I've ever seen thanks to having successive battles and cutscenes after them.

SRing for the Primals and Deoxys was fine if you KO'd them the first time around.