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Why Females (Girls, & Women) cannot win Pokemon League?

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Alain being a girl would have been super refreshing actually, Ash's main rival/one of the biggest battling powerhouses of the series being a girl would have been a nice change of pace. It's similar to how I thought Serena's storyline, with a few tweaks to focus on gender, would have been much, much better for a male character. Sadly XY has this weird gender stereotype thing going on which seems to have subsided a bit in Sun&Moon.

I've always thought Pokemon has had decent gender representation (before XY anyways) but never perfect. Which is odd because the games have been pretty good with equal representation between genders (not always perfect but not terrible either), so it's disappointing the anime hasn't followed. Out of 8 champions, 3 have been girls which is almost even, so it's surprising there's never been a girl winning the league.
 
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Alain being a girl would have been super refreshing actually, Ash's main rival/one of the biggest battling powerhouses of the series being a girl would have been a nice change of pace. It's similar to how I thought Serena's storyline, with a few tweaks to focus on gender, would have been much, much better for a male character. Sadly XY has this weird gender stereotype thing going on which seems to have subsided a bit in Sun&Moon.

I've always thought Pokemon has had decent gender representation (before XY anyways) but never perfect. Which is odd because the games have been pretty good with equal representation between genders (not always perfect but not terrible either), so it's disappointing the anime hasn't followed. Out of 8 champions, 3 have been girls which is almost even, so it's surprising there's never been a girl winning the league.
Well, in my opinion then having 2 girl champions should not affect that. In reality, there is only two champions from 6 in pokemon. And to tell you the truth, I didn't involve to much with alain. Really, I don't think that they should do like what they do. He was not tht unbeatable.Maybe, strong, and smart but not unbeatable. They made him like someone that cannot lose from anyone.

Really, in reality even trover can beat him if you ask me.

How many female players won VGC championships or EVO etc?

Yeah the female elite four had to come from somewhere and given that Pokemon battling is really important in the pokemon world. So obviously since if it takes a much bigger portion of the population the ratio would naturally even out. Regardless of the reason very few things are perfectly proportional in the real life world as well.

If it's okay to say "Pokemon is a kids show you need to accept and understand that", is it wrong to say "Japan is Japan and Pokemon is at least partially a Shonen you need to understand and except that"?

Also you gotta to keep in mind how far spread apart these tournaments are in terms of real life time.

inb4 I'm evil sexist reactionary because I alluded to the assertion the neurological sexual dimorphism exists in the human species.
Well, I am not sure about what did you?

Are you telling us that you are agree? Or not Agree?

How so? None of girls had any battle related goals. They don't even doing battles anymore!
And, that sadly true. The Only two who want to be strong players: "Astrid", and "Korrina".
 
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inb4 I'm evil sexist reactionary because I alluded to the assertion the neurological sexual dimorphism exists in the human species.
I guess you wouldn't need to be so defensive if you weren't deliberately missing the point?
We all get it but there's still no good reason to not show a lady winning the League.
 
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How so? None of girls had any battle related goals. They don't even doing battles anymore!
That's true, which is why I said "subsided a bit" instead of"has been completely fixed". The big difference is Sun&Moon doesn't have this weird, subtle "girls should just stick to dressing up, baking things, and looking pretty while the boys do the hardcore, epic battling" message like XY had.

Performances, which centered around the aesthetics of Pokemon, looking "cute", and doing more domestic things were limited only to girls-- boys weren't allowed to compete. The Pokemon League, while never truly equal wrt gender (the whole point of this thread), was even more of a sausage-fest than before (I think there was only one named female competitor?). One of the big climactic battles of the Flare arc left out 1/2 of the main cast to stay behind and watch after "The Helpless Girl Character" while the boys took care of the action (yes, there were girl gym leaders in the fray but you can't deny leaving Serena behind was anything short of sexism). And while this isn't directly related, I feel Ash's overdone "badassery" contributed to this feeling-- the main male of the series (who btw was still 10-fucking-years-old) was this badass competent trainer while the main girl of the series was more helpless, only concerned with feminine things, etc. Hell, one of her main "storylines" was her crush on Ash.

I'm not saying that any of these concepts are inherently bad. It's fine if your male character is strong and competent, it's fine if your female character is more helpless and likes feminine things, but if that's your only gender representation, especially if it's aimed at children, there's a problem. Especially when your main girl character says shit like "girls should only concern themselves with looking good" and "my goal is to become a more attractive woman for you". I didn't dislike Serena by any means, but I would be lying if I said I didn't take issue with how she was portrayed sometimes.

Sun&Moon currently does not have any of these problems. Sure, it's only 19 episodes in, and none of the girl characters have battle-related goals atm, but already I'm getting better vibes from it.
 
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I guess you wouldn't need to be so defensive if you weren't deliberately missing the point?
We all get it but there's still no good reason to not show a lady winning the League.
Yeah I think it should happen but I think people are going too ham on moralism here. What point do you think I'm delibretly missing exactly? And is it possible that what I'm doing is rejecting a premise?
 
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I guess you wouldn't need to be so defensive if you weren't deliberately missing the point?
We all get it but there's still no good reason to not show a lady winning the League.
Nice opinion my friend. I do agree with you. Even if the people think that the battles for males, and beauty contests for females which I don't think so, but still there is no good reason to not show a lady winning the League. They made a male won a thing that the people said that it is for females; so why they didn't allowed a females to win a thing that the people only think that it for males.

That's true, which is why I said "subsided a bit" instead of"has been completely fixed". The big difference is Sun&Moon doesn't have this weird, subtle "girls should just stick to dressing up, baking things, and looking pretty while the boys do the hardcore, epic battling" message like XY had.

Performances, which centered around the aesthetics of Pokemon, looking "cute", and doing more domestic things were limited only to girls-- boys weren't allowed to compete. The Pokemon League, while never truly equal wrt gender (the whole point of this thread), was even more of a sausage-fest than before (I think there was only one named female competitor?). One of the big climactic battles of the Flare arc left out 1/2 of the main cast to stay behind and watch after "The Helpless Girl Character" while the boys took care of the action (yes, there were girl gym leaders in the fray but you can't deny leaving Serena behind was anything short of sexism). And while this isn't directly related, I feel Ash's overdone "badassery" contributed to this feeling-- the main male of the series (who btw was still 10-fucking-years-old) was this badass competent trainer while the main girl of the series was more helpless, only concerned with feminine things, etc. Hell, one of her main "storylines" was her crush on Ash.

I'm not saying that any of these concepts are inherently bad. It's fine if your male character is strong and competent, it's fine if your female character is more helpless and likes feminine things, but if that's your only gender representation, especially if it's aimed at children, there's a problem. Especially when your main girl character says shit like "girls should only concern themselves with looking good" and "my goal is to become a more attractive woman for you". I didn't dislike Serena by any means, but I would be lying if I said I didn't take issue with how she was portrayed sometimes.

Sun&Moon currently does not have any of these problems. Sure, it's only 19 episodes in, and none of the girl characters have battle-related goals atm, but already I'm getting better vibes from it.
Well, I do love Serena, and happy that she really love Ash, but sometimes, I feel that she need to have a more fair wins. I do want to see a love from Ash, not only from the girl who is with him. Anyway, that's not what I need, I only want to see a girl win, or Ash. I do want to see a girl, or someone who traveled with Ash to have the same type of goal. I do want to see friends when they traveled but rivals when they challenged each other.

I do agree that I don't want to see "The Helpless Girl Character" all the time, which is more for Misty. She didn't do a lot of things, and only shout in Ash without even try to help him for solving a problems such as Challenging Team Rocket. About Iris, then she should be outside the entire anime. I still don't know if she really want to be a trainer, or want to like pokemon. Or I don't know; so she is the worst character I never seen.

I do love the three girls in the Sun&Moon.

Yeah I think it should happen but I think people are going to ham on moralism here. What point do you think I'm delibretly missing exactly? And is it possible that what I'm doing is rejecting a premise?
I am not sure if I did understand something; so I am with ii kanji when ii kanji said :"Which is what exactly?"

Which is what exactly?
i do agree with you in this


------------------------------------------

Anyway, thank you all for allowing me to see you impressive opinion. I do love this point
 
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I want to clarify this but just because the girls aren't doing anything "battle-oriented" doesn't mean they're being victims of the "gender stereotypes" - including real life. We can't judge them simply for what they prefer or like. We can't tell off a girl for loving baking or cooking because it is "girly", when most of the world-class chefs are guys (including pastry). Same goes for the fashion industry. I've heard of more male designers than female designers, and it's odd that if a girl likes fashion then she's being labeled a victim of the gender stereotype. I don't get this logic. We can't force people into doing things they're not interested in or don't prefer just because we think it is improper.

Did anyone pressure Serena or Shauna into being performers instead of battlers? No - they chose to be performers because they love stage performances and want to be part of the entertainment industry. They love dancing and baking. They love dressing up. They are actresses. People say the XY series are shoving horrible gender stereotypical ideas to kids - but I don't see anyone forcing anything. If that's the case, then we shouldn't let kids watch TV at all if we're going to nitpick at every single thing they air.

Accusing Serena for not battling and preferring performances sounds like accusing real life girls - who aren't athletic and prefer fashion - for not playing sports and throwing basketballs at them, shoving golfing shoes in their faces and forcefully rubbing off their makeup and tearing off their earrings. This certainly makes them the victim of the gender stereotype in reverse because they can't be who they are and can't express what they like because people label them as bad examples of stereotypes instead of letting them be.

Equality can be established by accepting others for who they are.
 
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o_O Where to even start?

For one "Serena" is not a real girl to have real preferences - she is a marketing tool and could have been utilised in any way.

Secondly, we're not talking individuals here , we're talking about trends. Over a 20 year period, the Pokemon anime has made it quite clear that boys battle and girls do prettier things. I think it's poor form in a show about battling monsters that more recurring female characters aren't shown on the same stage as males, or achieving the same levels of success.

Children's media has a responsibility to provide good role models. As a child, it is very hard to identify with a character who is the opposite gender to you. There's nothing wrong with it showcasing "girly girls" as long as there is some balance. It makes a difference to see boys and girls on the same platform, both achieving.
 
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It's also worth considering that the games are generally better about gender equality portrayal, also from the player's perspective, with both Serena and Calem (or for that matter, Red/Leaf etc) able to become Champion of the Region, depending on who you choose. The best was Nate/Rosa - my Rosa (Enrica) became the Champion, a movie star, and a property mogul (Join Avenue, anyone?)! I mean, why can't we have more property baronesses?! :ROFLMAO:

Though, then again, it's Nintendo, which I get cynical sometimes. Considering that one of the resident damsel scrappy still is a damsel scrappy - and yet somehow makes it into Smash when the Female Pokémon Trainer (and for that matter Caeda from Fire Emblem) still gets the shaft.
 
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o_O Where to even start?

For one "Serena" is not a real girl to have real preferences - she is a marketing tool and could have been utilised in any way.

Secondly, we're not talking individuals here , we're talking about trends. Over a 20 year period, the Pokemon anime has made it quite clear that boys battle and girls do prettier things. I think it's poor form in a show about battling monsters that more recurring female characters aren't shown on the same stage as males, or achieving the same levels of success.

Children's media has a responsibility to provide good role models. As a child, it is very hard to identify with a character who is the opposite gender to you. There's nothing wrong with it showcasing "girly girls" as long as there is some balance. It makes a difference to see boys and girls on the same platform, both achieving.
So what are we suppose to expect from the anime then? If Serena is not a real girl with real preferences, just a marketing tool to promote stuff, then it opens a whole set of questions about the characters we follow in the anime. Namely, Ash. But that's another story.

As for trends, yes it would be nice to have a girl be on the stage as males, maybe as an example of good role models. But that would require a shift within the Shoenn genre itself, and not just Pokémon. They're still hard to come by. Perhaps if a girl was the main protagonist taking on the Gyms and League, that would be remarkable unto itself. However, that would require removing Ash as the main protagonist in order to make room. And as long as people don't see him with a game League win, that will never likely happen.

It's also worth considering that the games are generally better about gender equality portrayal, also from the player's perspective, with both Serena and Calem (or for that matter, Red/Leaf etc) able to become Champion of the Region, depending on who you choose. The best was Nate/Rosa - my Rosa (Enrica) became the Champion, a movie star, and a property mogul (Join Avenue, anyone?)! I mean, why can't we have more property baronesses?! :ROFLMAO:

Though, then again, it's Nintendo, which I get cynical sometimes. Considering that one of the resident damsel scrappy still is a damsel scrappy - and yet somehow makes it into Smash when the Female Pokémon Trainer (and for that matter Caeda from Fire Emblem) still gets the shaft.
I would say it has less to do with Nintendo and more to do with TV Tokyo in regards to the anime. Nintendo has only 1/3rd influence over Pokémon, and even less to do with the anime show. And we have seen a significant increase of female participants with the Super Smash Bros series, so they are making progress. It's just that the Rescue the Princess from Bowser formula has become a tradition no one is willingly to break, just like Team Rocket always trying to capture Pikachu and other Pokémon.
 
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So what are we suppose to expect from the anime then? If Serena is not a real girl with real preferences, just a marketing tool to promote stuff, then it opens a whole set of questions about the characters we follow in the anime. Namely, Ash. But that's another story.
What do you want me to say? They are all just marketing tools or, from the creators' POV, a medium through which to tell a story, Satoshi and Pikachu included.
As for trends, yes it would be nice to have a girl be on the stage as males, maybe as an example of good role models. But that would require a shift within the Shoenn genre itself, and not just Pokémon.
Not that I follow any other shounen series than Pokemon, but this would be a welcome development as far as I'm concerned. Why shouldn't Pokemon be a forerunner in this? After all, it is big enough and has set enough precedents.
Perhaps if a girl was the main protagonist taking on the Gyms and League, that would be remarkable unto itself. However, that would require removing Ash as the main protagonist in order to make room.
That's not the only way to give worthwhile airtime to female battlers. After all, this thread is only asking for a female league victor, and that certainly wouldn't require Satoshi to be replaced as we well know!
 
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If a real girl in real life decides she wants to be a housewife or devote herself to traditionally feminine things that's totally fine. It's her choice and she should be able to do whatever makes her happy in life. As ii kanji said, Serena isn't real. She's not a sentient being who gets to make her own choices, she was created by a team of writers who said "y'know, she's the main female character of the show, let's not have her battle but instead do something feminine and say stuff like girls should only be concerned with their appearances". Serena herself isn't real but the impact her character makes on children in the target demographic is. I'm not saying a child will watch one episode of XY and be like "well I'm a girl so my place in life is to be this way", but being constantly given this message can impact a kid, especially because Pokemon is not the only piece of media to have these messages.

Additionally, there was absolutely no reason why Performances were exclusive to girls. Are boys just not supposed to like dressing up and dancing with Pokemon? There were plenty of boys in the audience who were excited by what was happening on-stage so we know they were at least interested, why then weren't they allowed to compete? Had there been a storyline about how this was wrong and Serena fought to include boys (ahem) then that would have been fine but it was literally just to reinforce tired old gender stereotypes.

And again, having a fictional female character be these things is 100% fine in and of itself. It's when this is the only representation that it becomes a problem because it tells the viewer this is how it should be. There were no other strong female battlers in the main (or even major) cast. I think the closest we got were Korrina and Diantha but they were barely even recurring characters.
 
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What do you want me to say? They are all just marketing tools or, from the creators' POV, a medium through which to tell a story, Satoshi and Pikachu included.

Not that I follow any other shounen series than Pokemon, but this would be a welcome development as far as I'm concerned. Why shouldn't Pokemon be a forerunner in this? After all, it is big enough and has set enough precedents.

That's not the only way to give worthwhile airtime to female battlers. After all, this thread is only asking for a female league victor, and that certainly wouldn't require Satoshi to be replaced as we well know!
So what exactly are we suppose to get from the anime? Best role models? Realistic kids? Or just characters the writers want to explore? Really, this thread is not about Serena's goal and let her choose who she wants to be. Have another female character to be a battler, like say Bonnie.

As for the Shounen genre and making a female trainer be a League victor, I would prefer the female victor to be the protagonist we follow rather than some League rival that beats Ash. Giving the League victor a female gender has as much impact as Ash wearing a new hat. Oh sure, it'll look nice, but does it really matter in the long run? Because people have more of a problem with having a kid be stuck in an eternal loop of not growing up despite the fact his character is clearly meant to grow up.

There's a reason why I gave no hope to Astrid being the Kalos League Champion. Because she is not the main character that we want to see win.
 
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Show us Cynthia winning the League. :p

The anime is still influenced by gender stereotypes. Look at Pokémon Showcases, they were only for girls.

A female winning would be nice, but if course, I would prefer if the winner is Ash. :p
 
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Show us Cynthia winning the League. :p

The anime is still influenced by gender stereotypes. Look at Pokémon Showcases, they were only for girls.

A female winning would be nice, but if course, I would prefer if the winner is Ash. :p
You know, if Ash is just a marketing tool rather than a character, why not make a new incarnation of Ash and change his gender?

You'll hit two Pidgey with one Geodude. Win-Win. That is if Ashley Ketchum can win the League this time.
 
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You're over thinking it. It doesn't matter who wins the league and moaning that a girl hasn't done it, for me, is pretty dumb. Not everything needs to be all gender equal or whatever. Plus there have been two female Champions (three in the games), who in anime kayfabe would've won the league then challenged the E4 and won. That sure is better than what most people manage. Anyway, the first few league winners were generic guys, some were people that directly beat Ash and I guess a male vs male rivalry works better, as it's usually aimed at boys. Still, you're putting too much stock in there having to be a female winner. It doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

Gen 4, 5 and 6 all had female champions, which came after male in gen 1-3. So if you discount Kukui in gen 7... there have been females in half the gens
 
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If we look at characters individually, then it's easy to say "oh yeah the writers can give them whatever personality and interest they think fits." But no character exists in a vacuum. They have to be analyzed in the context of the universe they are placed in as well as how they and their respective show fit into the real world. This is where we start seeing patterns, and the patterns are where the issues lie, not so much with individual characters (for the most part that is). On their own you can easily argue any of Ash's female companions are fine characters and that their goals are ambitious and compelling. But when you lay out all 5 of them (Misty, May, Dawn, Iris, and Serena) you see the patterns of none of them challenging gyms like Ash, none of them really being as battle oriented as Ash in general, 3/5 of them participating in the 'girly' option involving performing and dressing up, the list goes on. Zooming out slightly you can also see that Ash has never had a competent or consistent female rival, and most of the strong, anime-exclusive trainers he meets are men.

In response to Muur's comments, the anime writers aren't responsible for the champions, gym leaders, or any other game canon characters. I don't think it's fair to say the anime is excused for the patterns it introduced just because it didn't change decisions put in place by another party. Plus we never saw those champions fight through the league on-screen. They had an opportunity with Iris where they could have had her goal to become champion, like she does in the games, but instead they gave her the vague goal of becoming a "dragon master."

Also I think that having a female winner, or even top contender that gets screentime, is important. If the only awards the female characters ever get are things like top coordinator, but the focus of the show is always the battles, then you're really sectioning off who is meant to fill what roles. It's one thing to try to appeal to your target audience, which the games seem to do fine with their mostly equal representation. But what the anime does is tell its audience what they should be interested in rather than letting them find their own interests organically.
 
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If a real girl in real life decides she wants to be a housewife or devote herself to traditionally feminine things that's totally fine. It's her choice and she should be able to do whatever makes her happy in life. As ii kanji said, Serena isn't real. She's not a sentient being who gets to make her own choices, she was created by a team of writers who said "y'know, she's the main female character of the show, let's not have her battle but instead do something feminine and say stuff like girls should only be concerned with their appearances". Serena herself isn't real but the impact her character makes on children in the target demographic is. I'm not saying a child will watch one episode of XY and be like "well I'm a girl so my place in life is to be this way", but being constantly given this message can impact a kid, especially because Pokemon is not the only piece of media to have these messages.
I do appreciate your post as it has a point but I would like to see some proof of the bold. Did the writers actually express they had such detrimental intention?
 
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