Why Isn't EP081 Included in Season Two?

[Fennekin]

For the longest time, something has been troubling me about the placement of EP081, "Pallet Party Panic" or "Masara Town! Setting off on a New Journey!", in Season One instead of Season Two. Here are some key points as to why EP081 should be considered as a Season Two episode.

Airing on January 28, 1999 in Japan, EP081 was the first episode to air with the theme song "The Rivals". replacing "Aim to be a Pokémon Master". Right away, this should mean something. And while this episode did air with the Season One Theme in the English Dub numerous times, it was changed to the Season Two Theme on the DVD, and as far as I know, also for later airings on TV. I think this definitely shows the change of season began in EP081 as the opening changed in both languages, which most commonly reflects the season itself.

If you saw EP080 and EP081, I'm sure you'll get where I'm going with this next. EP080 is basically the end of the Indigo League and would be a great choice for the final episode of Season One. EP081 on the other hand, begins the next season with the task of delivering the GS Ball. So wouldn't it make more sense with an episode like that to be at the beginning of a season and not at the end of one?

With these two reasons, I think I present a pretty solid case.

 

[Lil Brother]

The first episode of the international season 2 is Riddle Me This, and the final episode is Charizard Chills. For the first eight seasons, seasons were divided into 52 episode blocks, regardless the story arcs being covered within those episodes or the theme songs accompanying the episodes. (For example, season 6 is composed of the final 12 episodes of Master Quest and all 40 episodes of Advanced.)

As for the episode division that fans and sometimes (but not always) the various DVD distributors across various regions like to use, Pallet Party Panic is grouped with the Orange Islands episodes. For example, Viz's U.S. DVD releases end the "Indigo League" sets with Friends to the End and start "Adventures on the Orange Islands" with Pallet Party Panic.

So either way, that episode is inside "season 2". So, you're right!

 

[Fennekin]

The first episode of the international season 2 is Riddle Me This, and the final episode is Charizard Chills. For the first eight seasons, seasons were divided into 52 episode blocks, regardless the story arcs being covered within those episodes or the theme songs accompanying the episodes. (For example, season 6 is composed of the final 12 episodes of Master Quest and all 40 episodes of Advanced.)

As for the episode division that fans and sometimes (but not always) the various DVD distributors across various regions like to use, Pallet Party Panic is grouped with the Orange Islands episodes. For example, Viz's U.S. DVD releases end the "Indigo League" sets with Friends to the End and start "Adventures on the Orange Islands" with Pallet Party Panic.

So either way, that episode is inside "season 2". So, you're right!

But they first method of order you suggested really doesn't make sense. For example, going by that order, Season 2, which is called "Adventures in the Orange Islands", more than half of that season would take place in Kanto, not the Orange Archipelago, "Riddle Me This" to "Friends To The End". In my opinion, it's much smarter to go by the corresponding openings to each season rather than splitting it into 52 episode blocks.

 

[Adamant]

Season 2, which is called "Adventures in the Orange Islands",

That name refer to the episode block making up half of season 2 and parts of season 3, and didn't exist until these episodes were released on home formats. Nowhere in the series itself is it referred to by any other title than just "Pokémon".

This goes for other such blocks, too. "Johto Journeys", "Master Quest" and "Advanced" are all names of episode blocks, rather than seasons. The only place that calls the actual seasons by these names is pokemon.com, which kind of handwaves the fact that the first dozen episodes of "Season 6: Pokémon Advanced" are called "Pokémon: Master Quest" in the episodes themselves, etc.

 

[Dogasu]

Plus, Season 2 is still from "Riddle Me This" to "Charizard Chills" regardless of whether or not you think it's "smart" to divide the series that way.

 

[Thingamajig]

Plus, Season 2 is still from "Riddle Me This" to "Charizard Chills" regardless of whether or not you think it's "smart" to divide the series that way.

Don't forget the two Porygon-delayed holiday episodes that were held back to season 2 in dub order for some reason.

 

[Adamant]

Those two episodes were held back and aired at exactly the same point in both the original and the 4Kids dub (and probably the other Asian dubs, too). That's their official placement in the series as far as those involved are concerned, regardless of how much they don't fit there.

EDIT: Oops, disregard this, wrong episodes.

 

[Dogasu]

@Thingamajig, are you talking about "Holiday Hi-Jynx" and "Snow Way Out," or are you talking about "Princess vs. Princess" and "A Purr-fect Hero?"

 

[Thingamajig]

Princess vs. Princess and The Purr-Fect Hero. Since the holidays aren't particularly significant outside of Japan, I guess the dub shifted them to season 2 to avoid breaking up the Todd Snap arc.

 

[Dogasu]

What I remember hearing back in the day is that 4Kids moved the episodes back because they weren't going to be able to finish editing them on time. "Princess vs. Princess," in particular, had an insane number of paint edits.

 

[Jukain]

The dub has screwy divisions, I tend to ignore them. Where the Orange League saga "should" begin, though, is a tougher question to answer. You have a point that this ep introduced a new plot thread, and thus, it should begin the saga. Personally, I consider this to be the finale of the Kanto arc and the next ep is the start of the Orange League proper. The only other saga that I see a problem like this, but it is more clear that a new plot began, is the Battle Frontier arc, which I consider starting with the Agatha ep, but the pedia doesn't agree with that either and places it at the end of the Hoenn arc. It's sort of the same thing, Scott shows up and the Battle Frontier challenge is introduced. With this logic, maybe I should put this ep with Orange, I dunno. The only other internal saga division is with Johto, and pretty much everyone will agree it starts with New Bark and the starter reiteration thing. However, the idea of going to Johto isn't brought to Ash until after he fights Gary. Does this mean this ep starts the Johto saga, too? I am unwilling to relent on this stand since it's obvious the saga starts with New Bark, but it does bring into question where the other sagas properly begin. From this line of thinking, I don't think it has to do with the introduction of the concept itself, but when the goal becomes this new concept, which would mean that Orange begins with the blimp, but the pedia would be right that Battle Frontier begins with Ash's return to Pallet. I don't know what the pedia's stance is on this.

 

[Fennekin]

Why are we even discussing this other order when that's not even the problem here since it's not even used on Bulbapedia?

List of anime episodes - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

As you can see, the first season, "Indigo League", is ordered from "Pokémon—I Choose You!" to "Pallet Party Panic". What I'm asking is, why can't "Pallet Party Panic" be moved into Season 2, "Adventures in the Orange Islands"?

 

[Jukain]

I gave up long ago trying to figure out the screwy dub seasons. According to the official site, Season 2, labelled as Orange Islands, starts on EP052 (Princess vs. Princess)and ends on EP105 (Charizard Chills) I assume that is what all DVDs of it in English go by. If you're looking for it ordered as the fandom sees it, I don't think that exists, not even for Japanese sets. (then again, I don't know how Pocket Monsters is done in DVDs there) You'll just have to keep in mind where the saga divisions are supposed to be.

 

[Dogasu]

The 4Kids dub seasons aren't screwy at all if you're able to count to 52. It's not even the tiniest bit difficult or confusing.

According to the official site, Season 2, labelled as Orange Islands, starts on EP052 (Princess vs. Princess)and ends on EP105 (Charizard Chills) I assume that is what all DVDs of it in English go by.

Adamant already explained that away earlier in this thread:

That name refer to the episode block making up half of season 2 and parts of season 3, and didn't exist until these episodes were released on home formats. Nowhere in the series itself is it referred to by any other title than just "Pokémon".

This goes for other such blocks, too. "Johto Journeys", "Master Quest" and "Advanced" are all names of episode blocks, rather than seasons. The only place that calls the actual seasons by these names is pokemon.com, which kind of handwaves the fact that the first dozen episodes of "Season 6: Pokémon Advanced" are called "Pokémon: Master Quest" in the episodes themselves, etc.

 

[Lord_Mewtwo]

The Australian DVD sets go by the official seasons while the US sets release them by arcs it seems.

 

[Jukain]

Except that not all the dub seasons are 52 eps long, although I haven't done the math if that is true for only the dub after 4kids or during it too. Battle Frontier was the first time I noticed the season was shorter than that. I think DP is fairly consistent up until Sinnoh League Victors, which HAD to be shorter. BW returned to inordinate lengths, though.

 

[Cybersai]

I don't understand why people care about this. We're not in 2001 anymore where KidsWb orders 52 ep chunks at a time. Just go by the dub title changes or the Japanese series changes.

Does anyone really care that the last 12 or so episodes of Johto are really part of Season 6? Instead of just saying, "Oh those are the last 12 Master Quest episodes and Season 6 starts with Pokemon Advance?"

I know back then we were so happy that Johto was *finally* over, but it doesn't really matter and only the oldest fans actually remember this stuff.

 

[Lil Brother]

*doesn't log in for several months*

*sees this*

I don't understand why people care about this. We're not in 2001 anymore where KidsWb orders 52 ep chunks at a time. Just go by the dub title changes or the Japanese series changes.

Does anyone really care that the last 12 or so episodes of Johto are really part of Season 6? Instead of just saying, "Oh those are the last 12 Master Quest episodes and Season 6 starts with Pokemon Advance?"

I know back then we were so happy that Johto was *finally* over, but it doesn't really matter and only the oldest fans actually remember this stuff.

Glad some things never change.

Why are we even discussing this other order when that's not even the problem here since it's not even used on Bulbapedia?

List of anime episodes - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

As you can see, the first season, "Indigo League", is ordered from "Pokémon—I Choose You!" to "Pallet Party Panic". What I'm asking is, why can't "Pallet Party Panic" be moved into Season 2, "Adventures in the Orange Islands"?

You asked why isn't an episode in season 2, we answered it is in season 2. Oh, so what you're talking about is Bulbapedia? Bulbapedia's a fan source, fans typically group Pallet Party Panic with the OI arc, I guess someone who thought otherwise put it there. Someone can change it into the different list, I'd recommend you get involved with wiki editing if you'd like to see changes made to it. (Looking into it now, Serebii's got that episode grouped with Kanto, that may be why whoever put it there did.)

 

[Adamant]

Except that not all the dub seasons are 52 eps long, although I haven't done the math if that is true for only the dub after 4kids or during it too.

It is. All 8 4Kids dub seasons are exactly 52 episodes each, while the PUSA/TPCI ones are a bit more random in length.

 

[Thingamajig]

Except that not all the dub seasons are 52 eps long, although I haven't done the math if that is true for only the dub after 4kids or during it too. Battle Frontier was the first time I noticed the season was shorter than that. I think DP is fairly consistent up until Sinnoh League Victors, which HAD to be shorter. BW returned to inordinate lengths, though.

If you take into account...

• That Beauty and the Beach is not apart of any dub season
• The three banned episodes (Safari Zone, Porygon, Ice Caves) that never aired at all aren't apart of any season
• Season 1 skipped Princess vs. Princess and The Purr-fect Hero, they're the first two eps of season 2
• Holiday Hi-Jynx and Snow Way Out are part of season 2 in the order they originally aired in both Japan and the US
• The clip show that fell during Advanced Battle

Every 4Kids season is exactly 52 episodes.

TPCi's episode numbering isn't actually that random when you look at it on a case-by-case basis.

• Battle Frontier was shortened to coincide with the end of AG
• Season 10... well that one doesn't really make sense. It might've been 51 because of the clip show (although this didn't happen with season 12), or because PUSA wanted to end it with the three-parter. No definite reason why this one was one episode short, though.
• Season 11 and 12 went for the full 52 episodes
• Season 13 was cut short to end with the end of DP (34 episodes)

Now, Black & White is an interesting case. I have a couple of theories on why TPCi suddenly went from 52 to 48.

• To avoid having to do another super-short season like with season 13. The pace of the series between Generations has been the same since the end of Kanto (OI + Johto = 193/194 episodes - depending on where you put PPP, AG = 192 episodes, DP = 191 episodes) Back at the start of Gen V, it would've been fairly safe to assume another 4 years and 190-ish episodes (instead of 3 years and the 145-ish episodes we're actually getting) so some bright spark at TPCi must've realised this and decided the seasons should be 48 episodes each, which would fit much better into 190 episodes (or 145) than going [52-52-dramatically-shortened-final-season] again... and the only reason season 15 was 49 instead of 48 was so the Rocket 2-parter would not be broken up.
• Viz just wanted to make sure that the widescreen episodes were kept to 6 episodes per disc on DVD and 52 would've brought it up to 9 discs per season instead of the much nicer, rounder figure of 8.