BDSP Why the hate for Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl

[Greninjaman]

I am one of those people. When I want to play Sinnoh again, I'll just get out my 3DS and play the copy of Diamond I bought back then.

What if you don't have a DS or any of the Sinnoh games?

 

[Snowy]

What if you don't have a DS or any of the Sinnoh games?

If this is your first foray into Sinnoh, then these games are just fine. They're fine as games on their own, but they are IMO bad remakes.

 

[Guzma]

they're definitely a step down from ORAS, that's for sure. i didn't hate them but they certainly aren't something i can keep coming back to like other mainline entries.

 

[Artuditwo]

There are also people who have not played a Sinnoh game in forever.

I have never played Sinnoh before, and I really like these games!
Most people say platinum is better, I think for the dex and difficulty?
I think that the underground is a very neat thing, and that you only need to SEE the pokémon to cout as catching for the national dex is very cool

 

[Snowy]

Most people say platinum is better, I think for the dex and difficulty?

Platinum has a LOT of story and quality of life improvements over Diamond and Pearl, that never made it into BDSP.

I don't think anyone is arguing that these are bad stand alone games. They aren't. They are pretty good if you never touched gen 4... or if this is your first time playing Pokemon. But as remakes, they are fairly bad. They are more like remasters than remakes.

 

[Norzan]

Most people say platinum is better, I think for the dex and difficulty?

Battle Frontier, the Distortion World as an actual dungeon and not as a background, more pokemon variety (i think you meant this with the dex thing), some backstory for Cyrus (not much but better than in DP which was nothing) and a bunch of QoL changes. Not to mention no neutered Contests and Secret Bases, not having a forced broken Exp. Share and affection mechanic. And Flint, Volkner and Candice not having random pokemon that have nothing to do with their typing speciality.

 

[Artuditwo]

Battle Frontier, the Distortion World as an actual dungeon and not as a background, more pokemon variety (i think you meant this with the dex thing), some backstory for Cyrus (not much but better than in DP which was nothing) and a bunch of QoL changes. Not to mention no neutered Contests and Secret Bases, not having a forced broken Exp. Share and affection mechanic. And Flint, Volkner and Candice not having random pokemon that have nothing to do with their typing speciality.

Platinum has a LOT of story and quality of life improvements over Diamond and Pearl, that never made it into BDSP.

I don't think anyone is arguing that these are bad stand alone games. They aren't. They are pretty good if you never touched gen 4... or if this is your first time playing Pokemon. But as remakes, they are fairly bad. They are more like remasters than remakes

Thx for the info!
Well after playing SP and the things u told me that were mising, Gen 5 still my fav XD

 

[There Is No Arceus]

i'm mainly disappointed by this game because of how little it improves on the original, and the fact that it doesn't incorporate any of the improvements from Platinum. the previous remakes (not counting let's go) were all clear improvements over the originals, including their respective third versions, but this game simply doesn't surpass platinum. even in let's go, they were clearly trying to create a different experience, even if i wasn't a fan of the changes. with BDSP, it just doesn't feel like they were trying. honestly, this is the first pokemon game since FRLG that felt like a loveless cashgrab to me.

 

[Boss1708]

Why do some people say that these games are just copy and paste versions of the gen 4 games? They must really hate Fire Red and Leaf Green then, since those are copy and paste versions of the Gen 1 games. Same with the Gen 3 Remakes to an extent; Those are mostly a copy and paste version of the Gen 3 games. Even the Gen 2 remakes.

After spending a lot of time here on Bulbagarden Forums, I got the wrong impression that BDSP were universally hated games. But the general opinion around the internet seems to be a lot closer to the 50/50 like-dislike ratio, compared to the overwhelming near 100% dislike that we see here on Bulbagarden for some reason.

Meanwhile, in the REAL WORLD (outside of our loud online echo chamber), BDSP has become the fastest selling Pokemon remake ever, doubling the sales rate of ORAS and LGPE, and comfortably surpassing FRLG and HGSS as well.

And, in the end of the day, sales speak louder than words.

 

[Snowy]

compared to the overwhelming near 100% dislike that we see here on Bulbagarden for some reason.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, I think It's closer to 50/50 here as well. It's just that those that dislike the games tend to be louder.

Meanwhile, in the REAL WORLD (outside of our loud online echo chamber), BDSP has become the fastest selling Pokemon remake ever, doubling the sales rate of ORAS and LGPE, and comfortably surpassing FRLG and HGSS as well.

And, in the end of the day, sales speak louder than words.

It is worth noting that sales don't mean people liked the game. It is hard to properly evaluate a game without buying it. And I bought a copy of both games, just like I have bought every other main series game previously, no matter how I felt about those games.

then again, I have something like 10 copies of both X and Y, even they were mediocre (In my opinion), because I enjoyed replaying them with different challenge rules.

But as I've said previously, I think BDSP are good stand alone games... I just don't think they are good remakes.

 

[Boss1708]

That's a bit of an exaggeration, I think It's closer to 50/50 here as well. It's just that those that dislike the games tend to be louder.

I don't think it's an exaggeration, but I hope you're right. Seeing all the hate for BDSP on here made me a little sad. I hope it's just a case of people that dislike the game being much louder, like you said.

It is worth noting that sales don't mean people liked the game. It is hard to properly evaluate a game without buying it.

Sure, but overall I would say that sales are still the best metric we have. I know it's not perfectly accurate, but it's what counts the most. Especially for ILCA, Game Freak, TPC and Nintendo.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

i should probably clarify that i don't dislike these games. they may be cashgrabs that add little beyond what the originals already had, but what the originals had isn't remotely bad. i just feel like these games didn't go above and beyond the way HGSS and ORAS did

 

[Snowy]

I don't think it's an exaggeration, but I hope you're right. Seeing all the hate for BDSP on here made me a little sad. I hope it's just a case of people that dislike the game being much louder, like you said.

I do know what you mean. I might be on the negative side here, but I was on the positive side with another game released a few years ago that seemed to get near universal hate. But every now and then, I see people that like the game speaking up. I think it's just that the negative seem to be louder.

Sure, but overall I would say that sales are still the best metric we have. I know it's not perfectly accurate, but it's what counts the most. Especially for ILCA, Game Freak, TPC and Nintendo.

Personally, I look at user reviews. I generally ignore critic reviews (As I don't know what conditions they gave their review under) but in this case, I even glanced at them via Metacritic.

The games have a 73 critic score and a 5.4 user score on Metacritic. Obviously I haven't read every review, but the ones at the front that are negative are all saying pretty much the same thing. That these are good games, if you ignore the fact they are remakes.

IGN Japan gave it a 50:

By attempting to remain as faithful as possible to the original games, this remake has ended up with a great deal of problems. While other Pokémon games (including the remakes) have continued to evolve the franchise, Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl will likely only be enjoyable for players who have a nostalgia for the originals.

User that gave it a 5:

There's really not much to say about this, it's just Diamond and Pearl to a T without any of the QOF improvements added in Platinum, not much good but nothing so bad to complain about.

Someone else mentioned the lack of innovation, which was my biggest complaint about it.

BUT.. and this is important... Remember that none of these invalidate your feelings about the games.

 

[KerfishSea]

I think it's a fun game personally. Hate how I go in the Grand Underground with a buncha Poke Balls and come out next to none and like barely caught anything

 

[ht14]

I would say "hate" is a strong word, but I have definitely found much frustration to BDSP in general. I'll try to summarize why I have been frustrated.

Borrowing from other games

• As others have mentioned, there's little that BDSP borrows from SwSh unlike what previous remakes did. While I actually really like the chibi component, I think it would have been quite interesting if there was a mode in which players can maneuver in the same way that SwSh did. Also, they only incorporated a few moves from the newer generations. Finally (and this is what would otherwise make this negative point neutral), I was saddened to see that only Pokémon up to Generation IV were in. Not even Sylveon made it to the cut. [slight negative]
• On the other hand, the things that BDSP does borrow from SwSh I personally was not a fan of.
  • Though technically this has been a thing since LGPE, SwSh did continue to carry along the merging happiness with affection. With that though meant that there were a lot of bonus effects that I did not really care for, such as enduring attacks that would otherwise knock out a Pokémon or removing a status condition. I was able to avoid them just fine in Generations VI and VII (pre-LGPE) and still thoroughly enjoyed the games. Unlike SwSh though, in which you had to use Pokémon Camp or friendship-raising Berries to get those in-battle friendship bonuses, in BDSP, there was no limitation. For me, I found that to be a lot less enjoyable as battles were (a) less strategy-based (which is what I looked forward to), and (b) much more drawn out as there is a special animation that occurs for Pokémon with in-battle friendship bonuses. As a result, this was the first time in which I deliberately started using herbal medicine on Pokémon. Which is ironic considering one of the parts of Pokémon I enjoyed was building up relationships with them. [huge negative]
  • EXP Share. No option to turn off the EXP Share was a huge bummer for me back when SwSh was announced, but I stuck with it. Seeing it again in BDSP made me sad. On the other hand, I suppose that allows me to rotate other Pokémon into my team, so there's that. [negative]
• Not borrowing from Platinum that much is yet another huge issue I had. Many of the QoL changes that Pt brought into Sinnoh such as adjusting levels or just changing both wild and Trainer's Pokémon, the option to rotate between Pokétch programs both forward and backward, and Gym Leader/Elite Four teams matching their types were all removed. Also, rip Battle Frontier. And uhh, DP Pokédex. I didn't notice it during my DP playthrough because I liked Ponyta, but I didn't realize until later that Ponyta and Chimchar were the only non-Legendary evolutionary family in the games. [negative]
• I really appreciated how there are many things that have been retained from DP in BDSP, but what they did choose not to keep was a bit disappointing. Secret Bases were such a welcome addition especially when DP first came out, but they only house statues; I quite liked the decoration component. They also removed Traps and capture-the-flag, which I found to be super fun when I was younger. [negative]

Comparisons to other remakes

Since this was a discussion point in other posts, I shall bring it up too.

• One thing in which I think BDSP really fell compared to the other remakes was the lack of a new area to properly explore. FRLG had the Sevii Islands; HGSS brought in a few more routes, replaced the Battle Tower from Crystal with a Battle Frontier, added a few more routes, a Safari Zone, and a few more locations; ORAS replaced the Battle Tower from RS (or Battle Frontier from Emerald) with the Battle Resort (which was frustrating for many, myself included admittedly), revamped Mauville City and replaced the Abandoned Ship with Sea Mauville, to name a few locations. In this respect though, LGPE and BDSP are pretty similar in that no new locations are included. An argument could be made for GO Park and Ramanas Park, respectively, but again, there is not much to properly explore. I would be much more intrigued if Ramanas Park were instead filled with some mini dungeons leading up to each Legendary Pokémon.
• Trainers' Pokémon and their levels did not change at all. Even their names did not change, with few exceptions. Even rematches (outside of the Gym Leaders and Elite Four) are exactly the same. In contrast, all the other remakes had adjustments made to Trainers' Pokémon and their levels. While perhaps an argument could be made that FRLG did not make many changes, they did incorporate Trainer names to them. Also, FRLG incorporated rematches to certain Trainers, which was not in the original RGBY.
• Per my point on Pokémon not showing up, the interesting thing that LGPE tried to do to make the game more unique was incorporating in-game trades for regional variants, something similar that is later incorporated in SwSh's DLC at the Isle of Armor. There is no equivalent for BDSP. (The reason I pick on LGPE is that they also limit the Pokédex to only Generation I Pokémon unlike other previous remakes, but they also added Meltan, Melmetal, and regional variants.)

Miscellaneous

• Rip the Dowsing Machine functionality in the Pokétch. That's all I will say.
• Trainer customization is a nice thing to have, but it takes a good amount of time before that function is unlocked in-game. It would have been much nicer to have that incorporated earlier. (I wanted to wear my Pt outfit a lot earlier...)
• I personally haven't experienced it myself, but following Pokémon can be a bit... clunky. Also, size is ridiculous for some Pokémon (see Dialga for instance).

There are a lot more points I could say here, but the final thing I'll mention is that there are definitely positive things about this game (but only primarily by virtue of it being a remake). Such things include adding some of the new Berries, a revamped Battle Tower roster, and hunting for treasure and Pokémon in the Grand Underground. Overall, I did enjoy BDSP, but only because I used herbal medicine on my Pokémon. Not bitter at all.

 

[ShieldFan]

Got a feeling they did treat BD/SP as a side project and they saved the best resources to make Pokémon Legends. Like I said in other thread, the Switch could've handled a game with better graphics. Sorry, but I can't just not compare BD/SP to their Gen 8 relatives (Let's Go, and SWSH). That chibi style looks so underwhelming compared to the open world like areas we got in SWSH. Even Let's Go games look more polished than BD/SP. Because the Trainers are scaled down with the chibi and pokemon aren't, gigantic pokémon like Dialga and Rayquaza end up looking comically small and close in size to their trainers. This is much different than in Let's Go games where there are different scales of Pokémon sizes in the overworld. Also having a regular Pokémon following a Chibi character looks off.

In all honesty, these don't feel like modern Pokémon games. Yes, they look more modern graphically but in actuality they feel like the exact same games I played on my DS 16 years ago. We took so many steps backwards with BDSP instead of moving the franchise forward. The fact that BD/SP are not an improvement over their predecessors (graphic wise, no open world areas) tell me all I need to know.

That being said, in my opinion BDSP games are one of the biggest disasters of this franchise. Also lot of fans set their bars too low. This fanbase willingness to accept this mediocre crap never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Juliko]

then again, I have something like 10 copies of both X and Y, even they were mediocre (In my opinion), because I enjoyed replaying them with different challenge rules.

Whoa, TEN copies of both games?! That's a lot! I usually have 2-3 for each game at most, but ten?! That's some dedication right there!

 

[Snowy]

Whoa, TEN copies of both games?! That's a lot! I usually have 2-3 for each game at most, but ten?! That's some dedication right there!

Imo, the best thing about X and Y was the replayability.

Something i feel that recent games, including BDSP, have lost

 

[UxieLover1994]

If anything, BDSP had a lot of potential squandered. If the game included Wonder Trading, Generation V-VII Pokémon not programmed in SwSh, more sidequests, Sylveon, a GO Safari, easier BP grinding, and regional variants, the games would've been better regarded. Instead, it's so shot-for-shot, that Clefairy should've been reverted to Normal-type, Pikachu and Eevee should've had their original cries from the start, and people would outright state it's 2006 in-game.

Even I haven't really played the game since New Year's Day, although that's mainly because of a lack of connection with HOME. I'm still waiting to transfer my Shiny Budew over (along with the guaranteed Shiny Ponyta in PLA).

I'm not even sure if we'll ever get that update that activates the Global Wonder Station.

 

[Vulcanos]

Let's dissect the game as two separate concepts: first as a "remake" in line with previous remakes of older games, and then as a "remake" independent of all others.

FireRed and LeafGreen were the first "remakes" of older Pokemon entries in the series, and laid out a surprisingly vast template for future remakes to follow:

• General improvements to A.I. and coding fixes compared to the original (which, considering Gen I... wasn't that hard), as well as workarounds to possible exploits, even though one advantage people liked about Gen I was the ability to choose who you faced in the halfway point as far as Gym Battles were concerned.
• Implementing modern (at the time) features, such as Abilities, new Types, and Moves into the game
• Quality of life improvements to reduce redundancies
• Adding new areas to incorporate additional lore, new Pokemon not accounted for in the original region, or extra content in general
• The Elite Four getting harder the next time you battled them

HeartGold and SoulSilver managed to top that, by following up on that and then including features that weren't included in the original game due to coding or space limitations, like a Safari Zone that the player could adjust, but also the freedom to have Pokemon walk with you (arguably one of the most beloved features in the series), a skill-based competition, the ability to rematch Gym Leaders, and Johto feeling more alive than ever. Most of all, unlike FRLG, which kept the Pokedex at 151 and limited breeding to the Sevii Islands, the Johto Pokedex was expanded on account of some Johto Pokemon having evolutions in Diamond and Pearl that could be easily attained (not all; Magneton couldn't evolve into Magnezone in the game, for example) rather than locking them to postgame content.

Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire weren't perfect; Mauville City was converted into a mall for the sake of the map, the Game Corner was eliminated entirely due to rating boards, a new plot was given to Rayquaza as they couldn't utilize the story from Emerald, and the Battle Frontier from Emerald wasn't used at all. But it was a very serviceable remake of the third generation, and like HGSS, expanded the Hoenn Pokedex accordingly.

Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl... doesn't expand on its games. Rather, it decides to be a one-to-one "remaster" of the original, meaning everything from that generation is in there, warts and all. The Sinnoh Pokedex doesn't account for new Pokemon that came into existence after Gen IV, nor regional forms, and to make things weirder, it uses the Diamond and Pearl Pokedex, which was infamous for being horribly imbalanced. Pokemon that were added to the Pokedex via Platinum are available, but you gotta manipulate them via the Underground, or wait until the postgame.

Yet, despite not building off of the Platinum Pokedex (which could've separated exclusives just as easily), the game cherry picked elements from Platinum that it saw fit to use for the purpose of handing out what used to be event Pokemon. It just chose not to add additional content that was in Platinum for the purposes of "authenticity". Basically, you're paying more money just to play with 3D chibi characters in a game where the aesthetic doesn't sync up consistently. And, to make things worse, it created new problems, thanks to the developers creating their very first console game and likely working against strict deadlines, which isn't a legacy to keep up, with the original Diamond and Pearl being notoriously slow to play thanks to their poor optimization and curious design choices.

As for it being on its own, the fact that Platinum exists makes this game sort of redundant, given it chose elements from Platinum that were easy to use, but ignored other elements on account that they felt would cause conflict with the design. I don't know what the idea was, ultimately, with this, but it just feels like an inferior version of a series of games that were already struggling due to poor optimization and a weak Pokedex.