BDSP Why the hate for Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl

[Dorothy]

i think the lesson some of us can agree on is that being too faithful has its consequences. there's some deviation, sure (the aforementioned elite four/gym leader rematches are one, pokemon hideaways are another), but i find those deviations aren't quite enough to carry the game or make them exciting either on their own or even altogether with the rest of the game, which is admittedly... divisive depending on how you feel about the rest of vanilla d/p's content.

It's especially egregious when we have past remakes to compare to, especially HGSS which are still the best remakes in the series. This should not still be true 12 years on, and there is no reason for remakes to decline in quality over time.

I skipped out on BDSP because for all the modern graphics, Platinum to me is still the definitive way to experience Sinnoh. If you can't top a 13 year old game with a remake on a modern console, what's the point? And the gall to charge full price as well!

 

[Bolt Strike]

@Vulcanos I agree with most of your post but I do have one nitpick. You discuss how the Sinnoh Dex doesn't take into account for new Pokemon that came into existence but... I don't think any of the remakes particularly do that well. You have HGSS throwing in cross gen evos that evolve by learning a certain move and then ORAS threw in all of the cross gen evos to its Pokemon but beyond that, they largely ignore whatever wasn't in the original regional dexes. A lot of the issues that people have with BDSP's Sinnoh Dex exist in other remakes because those regional dexes are similarly lacking (in fact, I would argue that regional dexes consistently had problems until BW2 because of imbalances in the entire National Dex that existed until Gen 5).

Honestly, the regional dex issues are one of my biggest pet peeves with all of the remakes. They have more than enough variety now to fix it, they just choose not to (probably because nostalgia). Just throwing in a few cross gen evos doesn't really help much, they need larger expansions like the kind you would see in a third version such as Platinum, BW2, or USUM. Like, if they do things like throw a Misdreauvs in the Kanto Dex or an Altaria in the Johto Dex or something then all of these variety issues go away but they're largely unwilling to do that.

The controversy with BDSP's Sinnoh Dex isn't just that its Sinnoh Dex has poor variety. It's that Platinum fixed those issues and they chose to ignore the improvements. By ignoring Platinum's expansion they're rehashing old issues people had with DP's Sinnoh Dex such as only having Chimchar and Ponyta as your Fire types or Candice, Volkner, and Flint having to throw in random types to their rosters. They reopened old wounds when they absolutely didn't need to do that. It's definitely worse than usual because they reverted Platinum's expansion, but let's not act like the other remakes were brimming with variety and including large numbers of Pokemon from the newer generations.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

with regards to the dex, the other remakes did the bare minimum, but BDSP didn't even do that. even if they didn't want to add the platinum dex for some reason, they should still at least have added Sylveon and the alolan/galarian forms.

 

[KerfishSea]

Man they were serious when they said they will be faithful remakes.

 

[Guzma]

Honestly making overly faithful remakes of two of the worst (arguably the worst) mainline entries in the series probably wasn't a great idea. Like, ORAS managed to turn two games I disliked into something I actually enjoyed. BDSP... fixed DP's overuse of HMs, at least? Which at least made them a bit less tedious than the originals. I guess.

At least it gave Game Freak more time to make Legends Arceus as good as it is. PLA's easily the first good entry in the series since Sun and Moon back in 2016 and rivals BW, B2W2 and SM in terms of quality IMO.

 

[Dorothy]

Honestly making overly faithful remakes of two of the worst (arguably the worst) mainline entries in the series probably wasn't a great idea.

Any faithful remake is gonna be bad, because the games have aged and need polishing to be up to modern standards. This has traditionally been the case with Pokemon remakes which have always specifically been enhanced remakes, adding new features and elements the originals lacked for the sake of making the new games the definitive versions. I don't understand why that philosophy was abandoned here.

 

[KerfishSea]

Honestly making overly faithful remakes of two of the worst (arguably the worst) mainline entries in the series probably wasn't a great idea. Like, ORAS managed to turn two games I disliked into something I actually enjoyed. BDSP... fixed DP's overuse of HMs, at least? Which at least made them a bit less tedious than the originals. I guess.

At least it gave Game Freak more time to make Legends Arceus as good as it is. PLA's easily the first good entry in the series since Sun and Moon back in 2016 and rivals BW, B2W2 and SM in terms of quality IMO.

At least ya didn't hafta grind as much in that game.

 

[Vulcanos]

@Vulcanos I agree with most of your post but I do have one nitpick. You discuss how the Sinnoh Dex doesn't take into account for new Pokemon that came into existence but... I don't think any of the remakes particularly do that well. You have HGSS throwing in cross gen evos that evolve by learning a certain move and then ORAS threw in all of the cross gen evos to its Pokemon but beyond that, they largely ignore whatever wasn't in the original regional dexes. A lot of the issues that people have with BDSP's Sinnoh Dex exist in other remakes because those regional dexes are similarly lacking (in fact, I would argue that regional dexes consistently had problems until BW2 because of imbalances in the entire National Dex that existed until Gen 5).

Honestly, the regional dex issues are one of my biggest pet peeves with all of the remakes. They have more than enough variety now to fix it, they just choose not to (probably because nostalgia). Just throwing in a few cross gen evos doesn't really help much, they need larger expansions like the kind you would see in a third version such as Platinum, BW2, or USUM. Like, if they do things like throw a Misdreauvs in the Kanto Dex or an Altaria in the Johto Dex or something then all of these variety issues go away but they're largely unwilling to do that.

The controversy with BDSP's Sinnoh Dex isn't just that its Sinnoh Dex has poor variety. It's that Platinum fixed those issues and they chose to ignore the improvements. By ignoring Platinum's expansion they're rehashing old issues people had with DP's Sinnoh Dex such as only having Chimchar and Ponyta as your Fire types or Candice, Volkner, and Flint having to throw in random types to their rosters. They reopened old wounds when they absolutely didn't need to do that. It's definitely worse than usual because they reverted Platinum's expansion, but let's not act like the other remakes were brimming with variety and including large numbers of Pokemon from the newer generations.

Fair point. As I said, HGSS did not bother with "location-based" evolutions (which was a pretty dumb mechanic that was thankfully reversed in Generation VIII where now those Pokemon can just evolve using an elemental stone), but I did fail to factor in move evolutions, which was the defining way Pokemon got around things in Gen IV. The thing is, the majority of those Pokemon were purposefully kept out of the original DP Pokedex and you had to import a few from Gen III titles to see whether or not they could even evolve, until Platinum gave in and made them part of the Pokedex.

Frankly, I agree with you say. The regions could be improved with a few minor touches to symbolize some diversity as well as the idea that Pokemon from other regions happen to live there (and not just "regional versions") that remakes could add. Those examples you mentioned would have gone a long way in solving problems with the Pokedexes in those regions and given how we somehow had a game that limited players to 153 Pokemon and could only access one type through in-game trades, it shows that "being faithful" isn't always the best solution.

I wasn't trying to gush about how flawless those previous entries were, but at the end of the day, the base mechanics of Pokemon are about the battles, and when you can't do that right, you have to evaluate what went wrong.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Fair point. As I said, HGSS did not bother with "location-based" evolutions (which was a pretty dumb mechanic that was thankfully reversed in Generation VIII where now those Pokemon can just evolve using an elemental stone), but I did fail to factor in move evolutions, which was the defining way Pokemon got around things in Gen IV. The thing is, the majority of those Pokemon were purposefully kept out of the original DP Pokedex and you had to import a few from Gen III titles to see whether or not they could even evolve, until Platinum gave in and made them part of the Pokedex.

Well it was more than just the location based evolution, anything item based (such as Electivire, Magmortar, Weavile, Mantyke, Munchlax, Bonsly, etc.) was excluded as well and the items needed to evolve/breed those Pokemon were withheld until you got the National Dex. The move based evolutions were the only ones added to the HGSS Johto Dex (probably because they were the only ones that they couldn't restrict without going full FRLG and saying "we won't let you evolve because we said so"). ORAS did slightly expand into all cross gen evos, but again that wasn't much. The Johto and Hoenn Dex both needed much more than what a handful of cross gen evos could afford them.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

in my opinion, you shouldn't expect a remake to do a massive overhaul of the dex. they're still remaking a classic experience, after all. i'm fine with what they did in ORAS, where they just added the new evolutions. the problem here is that a better version of the Sinnoh dex already exists, which they could have used in this version. it also makes no sense that we can't get Sylveon, as we can achieve its evolution requirements. i'd have been satisfied if they had just used the platinum dex and added sylveon, and maybe the regional forms.

 

[Beer&Nyquil]

im glad im not the only one who felt let down by these remakes. i havent even finished pearl...

 

[Bolt Strike]

in my opinion, you shouldn't expect a remake to do a massive overhaul of the dex. they're still remaking a classic experience, after all. i'm fine with what they did in ORAS, where they just added the new evolutions. the problem here is that a better version of the Sinnoh dex already exists, which they could have used in this version. it also makes no sense that we can't get Sylveon, as we can achieve its evolution requirements. i'd have been satisfied if they had just used the platinum dex and added sylveon, and maybe the regional forms.

Ehh, debatable. While they do need to stick to the script to keep it a similar experience to some degree for it to be a remake, remakes are also supposed to be improved, modernized experiences. Ignoring avenues for improvement such as adding in Pokemon that were introduced after the originals just feels like they're holding the game back.

The main reason I'm concerned about the dex not being larger and more modern has more to do with the inability to put together a full team for any type, I think you should be able to put together a full team of 6 fully evolved Pokemon for every type in every game (and we're perfectly capable of doing that with the 900+ Pokemon that exist at this point). For one, there's the issue everyone points to with having NPC type specialists (gym leaders, Elite 4, etc.) that can't put together a full team of their type and are forced to resort to doing things like using duplicate species or random types. It just screams incompetence. Even more important is players that want to do a monotype run. What if your favorite type is say, Dragon and you want to a Dragon monotype run? Are you just going to be forced to spam Garchomps on your team or something because Game Freak can't be bothered to throw in the newer Dragons needed to allow for a full team of 6? They really should be allowing for this kind of flexibility.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

The main reason I'm concerned about the dex not being larger and more modern has more to do with the inability to put together a full team for any type, I think you should be able to put together a full team of 6 fully evolved Pokemon for every type in every game (and we're perfectly capable of doing that with the 900+ Pokemon that exist at this point). For one, there's the issue everyone points to with having NPC type specialists (gym leaders, Elite 4, etc.) that can't put together a full team of their type and are forced to resort to doing things like using duplicate species or random types. It just screams incompetence. Even more important is players that want to do a monotype run. What if your favorite type is say, Dragon and you want to a Dragon monotype run? Are you just going to be forced to spam Garchomps on your team or something because Game Freak can't be bothered to throw in the newer Dragons needed to allow for a full team of 6? They really should be allowing for this kind of flexibility.

I'm probably the minority here, but i don't think it's a problem if some types have less representation than others. types like Ice and Dragon were designed to be rare late-game types, so it stands to reason that they only have a few representatives. on the other hand, the rarity of types like fire or electric in gen 4 is inexcusable.

 

[FelipePR]

Why do some people say that these games are just copy and paste versions of the gen 4 games? Those are mostly a copy and paste version of the Gen 3 games. Even the Gen 2 remakes.

Because, for a lot of the game, there's a real sense that they're just copying and pasting a lot of the content and code from the original games. Many errors in the original were simply replicated. And although the game has had its improvements and updates, it also had some downsides. In addition, I believe that the frustration in the graphics department also contributes to a more negative analysis of the games and the impression of little evolution.

The Second Generation Remakes, meanwhile, appear with a revisit of that generation with various improvements, enhancements, additions and changes. No wonder they are the Pokémon games with the highest User Score on Metacritic.

Regarding the first generation, I've never played the originals, just a little bit of Yellow, so I can't comment, Lol.

 

[KerfishSea]

Just know the first games were a buggy mess. So remakes were basically required. Do they hold up? Actually yeah kind. Are they good with plot and story? No. That's it...they're just Pokemon games.

 

[henrymidfields]

I was planning to get BDSP after I finish my current run with Shield, but wow, the grivances are making me rethink that. By all means make the E4 difficult, but use the Platinum Dex (or add further Pokemon like later evolutions), and don't make all the other trainers so easy. It sounds more like there's issues in designing the learning curve and some fake difficulty creeping in...

 

[Bolt Strike]

I'm probably the minority here, but i don't think it's a problem if some types have less representation than others. types like Ice and Dragon were designed to be rare late-game types, so it stands to reason that they only have a few representatives. on the other hand, the rarity of types like fire or electric in gen 4 is inexcusable.

Well it's not so much that I think types should have an equal number of Pokemon, it makes sense to have a ton more Water types for example because there's a lot more encounter methods to find them (tall grass, surfing, fishing). What I'm saying is that there should be a floor of 6 fully evolved Pokemon for each type. If you want to give Water 18 and Dragon 6, that's fine, but all of them should have at least 6.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

Well it's not so much that I think types should have an equal number of Pokemon, it makes sense to have a ton more Water types for example because there's a lot more encounter methods to find them (tall grass, surfing, fishing). What I'm saying is that there should be a floor of 6 fully evolved Pokemon for each type. If you want to give Water 18 and Dragon 6, that's fine, but all of them should have at least 6.

well, BDSP had Garchomp, Altaria, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina and i think Kingdra (though i might misremember that last one)

 

[There Is No Arceus]

when i do a monotype run or something similar, i usually import a bunch of mons from bank, especially if dealing with late-game types like dragon

 

[Bolt Strike]

well, BDSP had Garchomp, Altaria, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina and i think Kingdra (though i might misremember that last one)

when i do a monotype run or something similar, i usually import a bunch of mons from bank, especially if dealing with late-game types like dragon

Kingdra was post game, you are misremembering. Also, they shouldn't try to rely on legendaries either because legendaries are late game and generally banned from battle facilities and competitive. You also can't really import from Bank/Home anymore because of Dexit, so if they don't provide the variety themselves in the main game, you'll often just not have it period. Home also isn't even available for BDSP yet, so you're stuck with whatever the game decides to give you, which until post game is Garchomp, Altaria, and Dialga/Palkia. Not enough for a full team by any means.