Will this take place after XY? What of Mega Evolution?

[Norzan]

Like i said in my post in the first page of this thread timelines only screw things up, adds absolutely nothing to the franchise when done poorly and just restricts things, all these discussions about retcons, plot holes could have been avoided if people didn't asked for a damn timeline. I'ts the same issue i have with the timeline of Legend Of Zelda, what was the point of the timeline? it just turned everything into a mess, hell even coming up with a timeline that Link is defeated didn't solve everything.

"Ask for the damn timeline"

The only thing that tweet revealed was XY's relation to the rest of the games. Everything else was easily inferred given the fandom got everything right (and like I two posts earlier, the events were painted pretty clearly in remakes). I'm pretty sure this fact was pointed out to you many times as well.

Would we still have this problem had we not known XY's placement in the timeline? Ignoring actual references in the game that makes it take place after Gen I (like Blue studying in Kalos and Looker's entire subplot), it was specifically stated in-game that Mega Evolution is rare and was limited to Kalos. Suddenly, Mega Evolution has not only reached all the way to an obsessive rock collector in Hoenn (not actually surprising), but that its origins may actually be tied to Hoenn legendaries.

Seems like a contradiction regardless of whether XY was before or after ORAS since now there's a long history of Mega Evolution in the Hoenn region as well.

Mega Evolution could have simply been a game mechanic--Steven hears about it from Kalos and brings Hoenn's new Champion a gift and we can mega evolve. But no. Instead we have a Mega Evolution plot that ties the origins of Mega Evolution to Hoenn. I sure hope they get a better plot than what they came up with in XY.

Did i make a typo? English is not my first language so don't expect perfect grammar and punctuation. GF dug their own hole by connecting Mega Evolution to Hoenn (which apparentely is before XY in the timeline) when they said Mega Evolution was only possible in Kalos, let them figure a way out.

 

[The Outrage]

Did i make a typo? English is not my first language so don't expect perfect grammar and punctuation.

Not sure if this is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting my statements (which you failed to address) by making me out to be a grammar nazi, but I assure you, my reiteration of that statement was not to correct any spelling or grammatical error as I care more about the message expressed than the syntax.

I repeated "Ask for the timeline" because to me, you seemed to imply that up until that tweet, a timeline in the game hadn't been established. I assure you, this debate would still have happened regardless of an official timeline as everyone had already inferred "Kalos comes after Hoenn" from the events in the games. The only difference is now people can't just ignore evidence that a timeline actually exists by saying "Unless GF says it, I don't have to believe it" like they usually do when they can't come up with a valid counter-argument.

And like I said in the rest of that post that you didn't address, the contradicton in ORAS stands on its own regardless of whether XY happened before or after its events by virtue of Mega Evolution's origins preceding the events in both of these games. Suddenly, the 3000 year old origin of Mega Evolution in Kalos might not actually be where Mega Evolution originated, as it may have existed since the Paleozoic thanks to Groudon/Kyogre. If that's the case, how is it that nobody had any record of Mega Evolution anywhere else according to XY?

GF dug their own hole by connecting Mega Evolution to Hoenn (which apparentely is before XY in the timeline) when they said Mega Evolution was only possible in Kalos, let them figure a way out.

So is this an acknowledgement that this debacle would have happened regardless of an official timeline? Just one post ago, you were blaming this whole "retcon" talk on a timeline. Now you're saying GF dug a hole by saying it was exclusive to Kalos.

Being exclusive to Kalos doesn't actually mean anything to any game because its not as if Mega Stones vaporize upon leaving Kalos' borders. I fully expected any future games (even if they took place before XY) to be able to have access to mega evolution as a game mechanic handwaved by a simple explanation that the person who hands you the keystone got it from Kalos. The contradiction is that Mega Evolution now has an in-game history of not being exclusive to Kalos, despite its past origins saying it developed there.

 

[Norzan]

Did i make a typo? English is not my first language so don't expect perfect grammar and punctuation.

Not sure if this is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting my statements (which you failed to address) by making me out to be a grammar nazi, but I assure you, my reiteration of that statement was not to correct any spelling or grammatical error as I care more about the message expressed than the syntax.

I repeated "Ask for the timeline" because you made the false assumption that up until that tweet, a timeline in the game hadn't been established. I assure you, this debate would still have happened regardless of an official timeline as everyone had already inferred "Kalos comes after Hoenn" from the events in the games. The only difference is now people can't just ignore evidence that a timeline actually exists by saying "Unless GF says it, I don't have to believe it" like they usually do when they can't come up with a valid counter-argument.

I wasn't trying to make you look a grammar nazi, i was honestly asking if i made a typo because English is not my first language, so sorry if it sounded i was trying to make you look like a grammar nazy because that was not my intent.

So if they already had a established timeline prior to the tweet why its a mess and why they are trying to mess up even more now by saying Mega Evolution can happen in Hoenn when they said in XY it could only happen in Kalos?

 

[The Outrage]

So if they already had a established timeline prior to the tweet why its a mess and why they are trying to mess up even more now by saying Mega Evolution can happen in Hoenn when they said in XY it could only happen in Kalos?

I'm wondering if its the bad wording in the games, but I doubt they ever intended it to mean it could only happen in Kalos. The prerequisites for Mega Evolution is a key stone, a mega stone, a mega-eligible Pokemon and a strong bond (not actually in-game). Those can exist outside of Kalos. What I got from it was that Mega Evolution was limited to Kalos due to its rarity. I never doubted that someone could have visited and brought Mega Stones out of the region.

The contradiction now is that Mega Stones could potentially have formed outside of Kalos.

 

[Norzan]

And like I said in the rest of that post that you didn't address, the contradicton in ORAS stands on its own regardless of whether XY happened before or after its events by virtue of Mega Evolution's origins preceding the events in both of these games. Suddenly, the 3000 year old origin of Mega Evolution in Kalos might not actually be where Mega Evolution originated, as it may have existed since the Paleozoic thanks to Groudon/Kyogre. If that's the case, how is it that nobody had any record of Mega Evolution anywhere else according to XY?

GF dug their own hole by connecting Mega Evolution to Hoenn (which apparentely is before XY in the timeline) when they said Mega Evolution was only possible in Kalos, let them figure a way out.

So is this an acknowledgement that this debacle would have happened regardless of an official timeline? Just one post ago, you were blaming this whole "retcon" talk on a timeline. Now you're saying GF dug a hole by saying it was exclusive to Kalos.

Being exclusive to Kalos doesn't actually mean anything to any game because its not as if Mega Stones vaporize upon leaving Kalos' borders. I fully expected any future games (even if they took place before XY) to be able to have access to mega evolution as a game mechanic handwaved by a simple explanation that the person who hands you the keystone got it from Kalos. The contradiction is that Mega Evolution now has an in-game history of not being exclusive to Kalos, despite its past origins saying it developed there.

Yeah i noticed that, maybe people in the Pokemon World are just lazy.

No, i'm not acknowledging that, what i mean is that without a timeline they can do everything they want, there's no need for retcons and i would have been fine with it, now that there's an official timeline they need to follow some rules which they obviously aren't and if they want to put stuff like Mega Evolution they need to retcon stuff, what i meant that the retcons didn't need to exist in the first place if there wasn't a timeline, i'm just pissed at the mere existence of retcons and now with the Mega Evolution in Hoenn they either retcon or do nothing and it becomes a plot hole. Ugh, i don't think i'm making myself clear so i just should stop posting.

 

[The Outrage]

No, i'm not acknowledging that, what i mean is that without a timeline they can do everything they want, there's no need for retcons and i would have been fine with it, now that there's an official timeline they need to follow some rules which they obviously aren't and if they want to put stuff like Mega Evolution they need to retcon stuff, what i meant that the retcons didn't need to exist in the first place if there wasn't a timeline, i'm just pissed at the mere existence of retcons and now with the Mega Evolution in Hoenn they either retcon or do nothing and it becomes a plot hole. Ugh, i don't think i'm making myself clear so i just should stop posting.

Just because they didn't explicitly state it in the past, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

A timeline would also not have hurt GF if they had the balls to do something new rather than making remakes. The fact they keep making remakes is what traps them. But like I said, even if ORAS took place after XY (which it could if it was a sequel, but its not), introducing the Mega Evolution subplot and linking it to Groudon/Kyogre's bloodlust for this "natural energy" completely retcons events established in XY.

Had they introduced Mega Evolution and not made it plot relevant aside from Steven mentioning Kalos, there would be no contradiction. After all, its not like Mega Stones evaporate once they leave Kalos.

 

[Piplup]

Just because they didn't explicitly state it in the past, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

A timeline would also not have hurt GF if they had the balls to do something new rather than making remakes. The fact they keep making remakes is what traps them. But like I said, even if ORAS took place after XY (which it could if it was a sequel, but its not), introducing the Mega Evolution subplot and linking it to Groudon/Kyogre's bloodlust for this "natural energy" completely retcons events established in XY.

Had they introduced Mega Evolution and not made it plot relevant aside from Steven mentioning Kalos, there would be no contradiction. After all, its not like Mega Stones evaporate once they leave Kalos.

Exactly, if a remake really HAD to happen, I'd much rather a post-game meeting with Steven, with him talking about having been in Kalos and giving you the Key Stone... but they're shoving it into the actual plot and seemingly ignoring everything that was said in XY...
Also, about this unnecessary remake issue - if RS somehow deserved a remake, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they re-remake the gen 1 games... after all, FRLG were GBA games just like RS... and with how much they love gen 1 I can see it actually happening for the 20/25 years anniversary maybe...
And what's then? will they remake all the DS titles too eventually? I don't know, this whole remake thing really should've stopped with HGSS... if Hoenn absolutely had to be revisited, it should've been in a sequel and not a remake
Anyway, I'm still hoping that maybe somehow they'll manage to make sense of everything but I find that very unlikely to happen... well, unless they retcon the story to take place at the same time as XY, which to me would be equally annoying to ignoring the XY plot

 

[Jukain]

You make it sound like them lying about how things really are is a new thing. I have news for you, it isn't. Back in the second gen, Steel and Dark were supposedly "just discovered", as was breeding and eggs. FR/LG would later reveal that was not so and they existed all along. HG/SS would compound on this by not even mentioning it at all. It was all edited out. I knew from the beginning that everything they're saying about Mega Evolution and possibly even the Fairy type was all balderdash. (Mark my words, Fairy will be in this game and they will just act like it's not important that it's there BEFORE IT WAS SUPPOSEDLY "JUST DISCOVERED" IN X/Y'S TIME) Once junk like this is changed in the world of pokemon, you can bet that it will apply across the entire timeline. No, it's not important that they lied. That's what retcons are all about. Fairies and Mega Evolutions exist. That is all you need to know.

 

[Orion-Sama]

You make it sound like them lying about how things really are is a new thing. I have news for you, it isn't. Back in the second gen, Steel and Dark were supposedly "just discovered", as was breeding and eggs. FR/LG would later reveal that was not so and they existed all along. I knew from the beginning that everything they're saying about Mega Evolution and possibly even the Fairy type was all balderdash. (Mark my words, Fairy will be in this game and they will just act like it's not important that it's there BEFORE IT WAS SUPPOSEDLY "JUST DISCOVERED" IN X/Y'S TIME.

Huh... discovering something doesn't means it suddenly springs into existence at the moment of discovery. It doesn't mean that what was discovered didn't exist prior to its discovery. Fairy Type (And Dark/Steel for that matter) always existed, but it was unknown what it was at the time. They're kept in subsequent games regardless of their placement in the timeline because in Pokémon gameplay matters much more than some comments in passing about such new gameplay elements within the world. But even then, it works in context because as said, stuff doesn't spring into existence upon discovery. That's a ridiculous notion.

I can see the upset with Mega Evolution at least, as it was a plot point in XY and now it's all of a sudden a plot point in ORAS too, but then again, the same games were careless as hell with other things and even major plot points from previous games (Hi DNA Splicers), so it isn't exactly surprising.

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

You know what? I fully expect GF to retcon the origins of Mega Evolution in a potential Z version and have it be something that has already been know about for quite a while. This would at least allow for more trainers to get access to Mega Evolution like the Elite 4 and Gym Leaders in rematches.

 

[Jukain]

And what about the part about how HG/SS no longer said it was a recent discovery? I will agree that just because it's not recognized doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but what is recognized in this world? Steven himself is a known Steel expert, before it was supposedly discovered. Both Steel and Dark are even recognized by the Hoenn dex. If we're going to go into a whole thing about regions not knowing anything about each other, that matter has been made moot as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we do see things from all six regions somehow pop up in Hoenn. It has been a standard of this fandom that whatever the most recent iteration of the games is, that is what is the standard for what is known in the pokemon world. The time frame doesn't matter, we know that everything up to that gen will occur from that point forward, even if it goes back some gens. Why did they make a time line then? I don't know. The only thing time has ever mattered for was between the first gen and second gen, and then BW1 and 2. That D/P/Pt happened in the same time frame as the second gen is merely a coincidence, and nothing about either affects the other. Same with FR/LG and Ru/Sa/E. If we are to see the progression of this world, then it would still be inconsistent since now technology that didn't exist in a certain time frame can exist in other games in the same time. (I know this is a minor nitpick, but I know people that would pick on worse than that) From the games in which time IS relevant, we DO see that regions can change. Things get built that did not exist before. Some things even get taken away. The technology can vary, though.

What seems to matter more here is not time, but rather that they told us that Mega Evos do not exist anywhere but Kalos. I still knew since the beginning this would be a lie since there was no way they could introduce something like this and not have it make holes in that. It was certain to exist from this point forward, so why even pretend something like that? They should've not even made it an issue to start with if this was their intention all along. No, not even to hedge their bets. It is clear they were going to do this. I once proposed if they wanted to push it, they could have someone bring them from Kalos, but then, it would be unexplained that newer Mega evos exist. Not to mention that technically, even having them in another region at all would have been lying since they DO exist in other regions, but at least they could've made it to where the STONES were only from one region. They had nothing to gain from this matter since it would be a moot point, they might as well make Mega Stones come from all regions. My answer is that they do it because their audience is too stupid to question such things. We are not.

 

[GiraFragMich]

Maybe Mega Stones are not real stones/rocks but something more along the lines of Lithops or corals. Meaning they can reproduce. Maybe this theory is a little outrageous.

The first ever ME is said to be of a Lucario and his trainer came from another region right? Maybe, after finally mastering the ME in Kalos, he went back to his home region with his Mega Lucario and its respective stone, and there he "cultivated" it.

You know scratch that. You can't make something make sense just for the heck of it.

 

[Almonds]

You know what? I fully expect GF to retcon the origins of Mega Evolution in a potential Z version and have it be something that has already been know about for quite a while. This would at least allow for more trainers to get access to Mega Evolution like the Elite 4 and Gym Leaders in rematches.

A retcon in the third version sounds much better than having to twist the timelines. I agree with this.

 

[Ivysaur]

You know what? I fully expect GF to retcon the origins of Mega Evolution in a potential Z version and have it be something that has already been know about for quite a while. This would at least allow for more trainers to get access to Mega Evolution like the Elite 4 and Gym Leaders in rematches.

A retcon in the third version sounds much better than having to twist the timelines. I agree with this.

I have my doubts we'll see Kalos again this generation though. A third game would feel like a step back after getting sequels last time, but XY weren't plot-heavy enough to have something to build on with sequels. I think we may get something different.

Still, ORAS were clearly in development by the time XY were nearing release. It still doesn't make sense to me why GameFreak would dig themselves into a hole by all but confining Mega Evolution to Kalos and declaring it a recent development, even if we know they don't care about plot and timeline inconsistencies all that much.

 

[The Outrage]

@Dragon Char;
Missing the point. Its one thing for remakes to retcon their original games. Its another for a remake to retcon other events established within the same generation.

I get that there's some people who somehow think "not discovered" is equal to "not existing"--I am not one of those people. I've given my thoughts on how they could have kept Mega Evolution and Fairy type in ORAS without any contradiction to what XY had said. Its only people who think that Mega Stones somehow stop functioning because they leave Kalos or that fairies didn't exist until it was discovered that had issues with them being included.

The issue in the past few pages isn't that they're in the game, but how they've been put in the game.

 

[Jukain]

A lot of people also have not made the same decision I did, to stop treating the games so literally; as the gospel of this world. I looked back at the earliest parts of this thread out of curiosity, and someone said something I've never considered before. What if they're just breaking the fourth wall? What if all of those times they've said something was new, it was because it was new to US and not to them. I think they said that to even take this so literally is to believe a B button does exist to turn on the Running Shoes and cancel evolution and that you can really bring up a menu and junk like that. I'm pretty sure there is an argument of how it's presented and how it's supposed to apply to the pokeworld, but the holes would still apply.

Regardless, going back to my original statement. There's a lot of stuff they do simply because this is a game. I'm pretty sure the ENTIRE existence of Mega evos and everything associated to them is one of them. They were made to put an evo where one wasn't before, but for some reason, they didn't want to add to the number of pokes in the dex. I guess they also sort of realized that by expanding certain lines, they would become enormously powerful, so they had to place a limitation on it; that being it was only temporary. As with a lot of evos, they also had to explain why it wasn't possible before. In a way, they're not exactly lying. At that point, Mega Stones and keystones did not exist in other regions. No other game had them. No other region had them. It was unique to this game. I have found that all the excuses they ever came up with for why an evo wasn't there before to be flimsy at best, though. It is justified in most cases, although it often included creating an item JUST to facilitate that evo. Some of them aren't justified, like the whole Ancientpower fiasco. To me, none of this was really necessary. They could've just added an evo and people would've been fine with it. So what if it wasn't in the other games. Everything's going to be retconned anyway, so why not just let it be? It would've been a whole lot smoother than inventing the bazillion items we have to find just to evolve one and only one pokemon. Then again, also question why we even need items to begin with, but I already answered that question: It's a game.

My point is that Mega Evos could've been just like any other evo. They could've even had the regular explanation instead of this one, but like I said, I think they realized how powerful that would make them. This explanation is just as flimsy as the past ones, even in it's premise. The whole thing that makes Mega evos possible should be able to be done WITHOUT the Mega Stones and keystones at all. It's only there because this is a game. In fact, I think such a thing should be noted because it's implied this is how Groudon and Kyogre are becoming Primal. They ALWAYS had this ability. They can recall the power they used to create this world. I'm pretty sure it will still be represented by an item in this game, but it has been stated they always had this power and don't need us to unleash it. There's some implication that they're the source of the power that makes Mega evolution possible. They can pretend this all they want, but I don't think even that is true. One only has to point to Giratina to realize that more things may in fact possess a "true form" as it were. A manifestation in which they can unleash the full power of their abilities. As much as people point to Primal Dialga in MD, I do not believe that was the same thing. In fact, I don't believe that to be true of Dialga at all, since it would imply that Dialga does not in fact control time, but rather that time controls Dialga. (it could be a valid interpretation, but it don't believe it's true in the main games) If Giratina has a "true form", you can bet all of it's brethren do. Whether that means Arceus has one or not is another matter. Already, this thing has roots deeper than what they're saying. It even goes back to one of the fundamental concepts of pokemon itself. The more you bond with your pokemon, the more they will unleash their abilities. Mega Evolution, I believe, is the ultimate conclusion of this. A form born of a full mastery of one's abilities, unleashing their full potential.

I find that a lot of things in Pokemon depend on how you want to look at it. It's never a question of what the words literally say. It's what they mean to YOU. That is the way all things are. You can ignore all I just said, I will not hold it against you. If you want to follow a literal definition, then go ahead, I clearly cannot stop you. I do not believe that is what you wish to do, though. I will not deny what they stated about Kalos sounded like they were intent on that being a constant, but we all know they were not going to do that anyway. Whether it's in the same gen or not doesn't matter. They go back on their word regardless. I will reiterate the matter that it's not a complete lie. Technically it is true, for the time being. I will also remind you that at one time, it was "true" that there were only 15 types. That there was only one region and 151 pokemon. This would've been irrefutable. Why would they state that as if it's true for the pokemon world too? Technically it is as far was we know. Imagine what will be "true" tomorrow. Do we even really know anything? I may also agree that the way they try to make sense of it is garbage. That is why I ignore it and provide my own explanation.

 

[lugia61617]

I'll repeat myself to see if it actually gets through to anyone:

Mega-evolution is a phenomenon which probably began starting from not long after the ultimate Weapon was fired.
The energy from it may well have spread around the world, or if not, then the stones it affects may well have been pread around the world over thousands of years.

While the phenomenon began in Kalos, it was still a very rare one which requires not only a stone with the power but a powerful bond between pokemon and trainer as well. These factors culminate in a reasonable explanation for it being relatively unknown until the events of X and Y, when it was finally researched by a scientist, while still allowing for it to be looked into and used years earlier.

 

[Jukain]

The thing is, we have no context on whether Groudon and Kyogre's appearance in ancient times was at the same time as the war was going on in Kalos. Civilization or some form of it had to have existed at that point for there to be a record of it. The pokemon themselves, though, are older than that. The reason their Primal Regression exists is because they're older than history can record. Like it or not, the ability is older than what was indicated by Kalos's war. It can be said that no record exists that is older than that, possibly because all this turmoil destroyed them. It is also possible that it is so old that it simply faded into obscurity. One cannot be certain, but I will retain that at least the ability itself is older. I simply ignore everything to do with Mega and key stones simply because I only see them as a game mechanic and nothing more.

 

[The Outrage]

I'm going to just give GF the benefit of the doubt right now since we don't have a full picture.

Perhaps Primal Reversion's link to Mega Evolution isn't an origin but its process--they both cause an "evolution" by taking in the world's 'natural energy'. That could explain how a Pokemon even goes beyond the limits of evolution (after all, if the energy is internal, why don't they just evolve again?). The link between trainer and Pokemon still doesn't make sense but that bond being a key that unlocks a Pokemon's ability to absorb natural energy makes more sense than Mega Evolution being fueled by the power of friendship.

I can't think of any explanation for Mega Stones found in Hoenn, but we really don't have an explanation for Mewtwonite.

 

[TerraTF]

I'm going to just give GF the benefit of the doubt right now since we don't have a full picture.

Perhaps Primal Reversion's link to Mega Evolution isn't an origin but its process--they both cause an "evolution" by taking in the world's 'natural energy'. That could explain how a Pokemon even goes beyond the limits of evolution (after all, if the energy is internal, why don't they just evolve again?). The link between trainer and Pokemon still doesn't make sense but that bond being a key that unlocks a Pokemon's ability to absorb natural energy makes more sense than Mega Evolution being fueled by the power of friendship.

Maybe Primal Evolution is triggered when a Pokemon has energy forced upon it while Mega Evolution is from energy of the bond between trainer and Pokemon.

I can't think of any explanation for Mega Stones found in Hoenn, but we really don't have an explanation for Mewtwonite.

Maybe Mewtwonite will be found to be Mewite in the future.