Worst Way Ash Has Lost The Pokemon League?

[JacobYBM]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

 

[Perpetual_Phoenix]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

It's obvious that a full battle means 6v6. The games and the anime clearly state that.

That's the point people are trying to make. They made Ash into this incompetent trainer in Best Wishes and that is unacceptable considering what went down in Sinnoh. The fact that he lost to a trainer who thought the Unova League would take place in Johto, and believed you only needed 7 badges to qualify for it, didn't know about registration, AND had the idiocy to believe a full battle is 5v5 just adds insult to injury.

 

[Hidden Mew]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

I always thought that Ash running out of his Gym battle with Elesa to get Snivy was grounds for disqualifying him too. It was clear that he wasn't prepared for that match and having to leave an official Gym or League battle to get another Pokemon bothered me so much. If there was better writing in BW, Elesa would have disqualified Ash right on the spot and told him to come back when he was actually prepared for his Gym battle, but they let that slide for some reason, despite how a trainer shouldn't be allowed to leave to get another Pokemon after the match already started. That easily made the match against Elesa the worst Gym battle in BW, although Roxie might take that spot too given that it only proved that Ash was no where near ready for the Unova League.

They've always described a full battle as a six-on-six Pokemon match. While I'm not sure if coming to a match with only five Pokemon is grounds for disqualification as much as Ash's stunt in his match against Elesa, the idea that it is a rule does make sense. I forget if trainers had to register each Pokemon they used for their matches in the Unova League, but if that was the case, then that would make Cameron even worse since he wouldn't even notice that he needed to register six Pokemon. And people also just let it slide that he had only five Pokemon to a full battle, which also bothered me.

Ash was a terrible trainer in BW, but he didn't even lose to a good trainer. Cameron was nothing more than an complete idiot who made Ash look like a genius by comparison. I think that's one of the main issues people had with Cameron beating Ash. It wasn't because he had better skills or strategy, especially when their battle didn't involve much skill or strategy to begin with, but because the writers just wanted Ash to lose. The least they could have done was have him lose to a competent trainer and not to a total moron who didn't even know basics like how many Gym badges he needed, what a full Pokemon battle is or that the Unova League would be held in Unova and not in Johto. If Ash had lost to a competent trainer that wasn't so stupid, maybe his loss in the Unova League wouldn't have been that bad, especially when the Top 8 was the highest rank I think Ash could have gotten in BW without feeling too forced, but as it was, it was a really terrible way for him to lose that only made Ash's regression worse and more apparent.

 

[ManUtd22]

Vs Cameron was an insult to Ash. The biggest disgrace imo.

How come? All Cameron did was forget his sixth Pokemon, though he still won anyway with just five.

Bringing only 5 pokemon when the League rules state 6-on-6 full battle should have been enough to get him disqualified, yet they let Cameron battle anyways. He killed off two of his pokemon by sending them out against Ash's Pignite and Pikachu when they have clear 4x weaknesses and he STILL won.

When you think it's Ash, who defeated two legendary pokemons in the Sinnoh League... the Unova League was an insult to Ash's career.

I am with you but you forgot How riolu beat Unfazeant

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

I always thought that Ash running out of his Gym battle with Elesa to get Snivy was grounds for disqualifying him too. It was clear that he wasn't prepared for that match and having to leave an official Gym or League battle to get another Pokemon bothered me so much. If there was better writing in BW, Elesa would have disqualified Ash right on the spot and told him to come back when he was actually prepared for his Gym battle, but they let that slide for some reason, despite how a trainer shouldn't be allowed to leave to get another Pokemon after the match already started. That easily made the match against Elesa the worst Gym battle in BW, although Roxie might take that spot too given that it only proved that Ash was no where near ready for the Unova League.

They've always described a full battle as a six-on-six Pokemon match. While I'm not sure if coming to a match with only five Pokemon is grounds for disqualification as much as Ash's stunt in his match against Elesa, the idea that it is a rule does make sense. I forget if trainers had to register each Pokemon they used for their matches in the Unova League, but if that was the case, then that would make Cameron even worse since he wouldn't even notice that he needed to register six Pokemon. And people also just let it slide that he had only five Pokemon to a full battle, which also bothered me.

Ash was a terrible trainer in BW, but he didn't even lose to a good trainer. Cameron was nothing more than an complete idiot who made Ash look like a genius by comparison. I think that's one of the main issues people had with Cameron beating Ash. It wasn't because he had better skills or strategy, especially when their battle didn't involve much skill or strategy to begin with, but because the writers just wanted Ash to lose. The least they could have done was have him lose to a competent trainer and not to a total moron who didn't even know basics like how many Gym badges he needed, what a full Pokemon battle is or that the Unova League would be held in Unova and not in Johto. If Ash had lost to a competent trainer that wasn't so stupid, maybe his loss in the Unova League wouldn't have been that bad, especially when the Top 8 was the highest rank I think Ash could have gotten in BW without feeling too forced, but as it was, it was a really terrible way for him to lose that only made Ash's regression worse and more apparent.

Am with you, I felt the same when he challenged Elesa and the same with Cameron

Look to my point:-

1. This guy must not allowed to register after lating, however Ash became stupid and asked Joy. Why did you do that Ash? And Even if you did that, Joy must not accept; because it must be a limit to registration so Why did you allowed Cameron to compete Joy?

2. This guys must not have a singal pokemon; because there is no connection (communication) between his stupidly unforgivable person character and his pokemon So how did he got these pokemon and got a badge or won a single match - I am sure these pokemon gave themselves to him; because he can't do a single thing so they say if we leave him alone then he will die no doubt.

3. Using Hair tie is unforgivable idea too.

4. Did you see his embarassing win against Bianca (Bel)? She must beat him 2-0; because she had a great idea when she used Iron Defense but she lost to first pokemon. Then she show him another great idea by using attract and then beat Samurat - But how a final stage and strong pokemon like Emboar lost to riolu.

5. Beating Ash is most unforgivable thing, because Everything he did is wrong by wrong. Using 3 disadvantages (2 losts) and one beat unfazeant (How riolu did that I don't know) Flying must have a good match against fighting type like riolu (if lucario, then it can happen but riolu i don't know how) + He used a secret weapon in first pokemon (how did you use a secret weapon if first, Are you stupid or maybe you didn't know the meaning of secret weapon) + He used a copy cat to challenge Snivy, Are you stupid? Even if he can use that, however snivy is a grass type so using copy cat means using a final attack snivy did which means using a grass type and because Snivy is grass so she must not affects by grass type attack - Also, Snivy did everything to riolu but he still didn't deat and also evolved so snivy lost to lucario - Finally, He beated ash with 5 pokemon How this can be?

6. Finally, after all that she lost easily to that man who had a eve group (6-3)

 

[Almonds]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

snip
If Ash had lost to a competent trainer that wasn't so stupid, maybe his loss in the Unova League wouldn't have been that bad, especially when the Top 8 was the highest rank I think Ash could have gotten in BW without feeling too forced, but as it was, it was a really terrible way for him to lose that only made Ash's regression worse and more apparent.

This just came to mind, but the the Unova League would have ended better if Ash lost to Virgil. This is another reason I feel annoyed about the Cameron battle. When they were announced to battle each other, I thought Ash would win against Cameron and lose to Virgil at the finals or something since Virgil was shown to be a more intelligent trainer/rescuer who was also a League rival. The fact they had Ash lose to an idiot WHEN THEY HAD A COMPETENT TRAINER ON HAND makes the results more bitter. Honestly, they were all for promoting Eeveelutions during that period and a 6-6 battle would have been an excellent chance to give each and every Eeveelution plenty of screentime (especially some of those who hadn't appeared much such as Leafeon). Besides, Virgil had been giving off that 'Tobias' sort of vibe (the one character that Ash HAS to lose to) all along and I think plenty of us had expected Ash losing to Virgil. But nope - they chose Cameron and Virgil never even battled Ash despite being a League rival. Another reason the Unova League proves to be the worst way Ash lost.

So imo, ranking of the worst way Ash lost the pokemon league:

Unova >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Distortion World >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kanto>Johto=Hoenn>>>>>Sinnoh

I hope Ash gets a win in the Kalos League. IF he has to lose, I hope they make him lose to someone with a Mega Mewtwo or something Uber.

 

[ManUtd22]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

snip
If Ash had lost to a competent trainer that wasn't so stupid, maybe his loss in the Unova League wouldn't have been that bad, especially when the Top 8 was the highest rank I think Ash could have gotten in BW without feeling too forced, but as it was, it was a really terrible way for him to lose that only made Ash's regression worse and more apparent.

This just came to mind, but the the Unova League would have ended better if Ash lost to Virgil. This is another reason I feel annoyed about the Cameron battle. When they were announced to battle each other, I thought Ash would win against Cameron and lose to Virgil at the finals or something since Virgil was shown to be a more intelligent trainer/rescuer who was also a League rival. The fact they had Ash lose to an idiot WHEN THEY HAD A COMPETENT TRAINER ON HAND makes the results more bitter. Honestly, they were all for promoting Eeveelutions during that period and a 6-6 battle would have been an excellent chance to give each and every Eeveelution plenty of screentime (especially some of those who hadn't appeared much such as Leafeon). Besides, Virgil had been giving off that 'Tobias' sort of vibe (the one character that Ash HAS to lose to) all along and I think plenty of us had expected Ash losing to Virgil. But nope - they chose Cameron and Virgil never even battled Ash despite being a League rival. Another reason the Unova League proves to be the worst way Ash lost.

So imo, ranking of the worst way Ash lost the pokemon league:

Unova >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Distortion World >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kanto>Johto=Hoenn>>>>>Sinnoh

I hope Ash gets a win in the Kalos League. IF he has to lose, I hope they make him lose to someone with a Mega Mewtwo or something Uber.

boku wa so omou tono kono (which mean i also thought this) "the the Unova League would have ended better if Ash lost to Virgil."

did you see how he beat bianca (bel)

 

[JacobYBM]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

It's obvious that a full battle means 6v6. The games and the anime clearly state that.

That's the point people are trying to make. They made Ash into this incompetent trainer in Best Wishes and that is unacceptable considering what went down in Sinnoh. The fact that he lost to a trainer who thought the Unova League would take place in Johto, and believed you only needed 7 badges to qualify for it, didn't know about registration, AND had the idiocy to believe a full battle is 5v5 just adds insult to injury.

It's not the staff's fault. This is the same group of folks who brought up Shin'ou, they know how to make exciting battles. There was a change of course for Shin'ou, it couldn't be helped, so they rolled with it. The very match before the Kotetsu match had Satoshi fighting competently, after all. Satoshi losing like an idiot to Kotetsu reads a lot more like "Satoshi really sucks this series, let's just beat the shit out of him in disgust." Best Wishes Episode #108 Scenarist Fujita Shinzou turned right around and wrote XY Episodes #5-6 which were good battle episodes.

Satoshi had it coming and the production staff knew it. They wanted to beat the shit out of the character and the restrictions that had forced their hand and they did so gleefully through the perfect blunt instrument, Kotetsu.

 

[Hidden Mew]

This just came to mind, but the the Unova League would have ended better if Ash lost to Virgil. This is another reason I feel annoyed about the Cameron battle. When they were announced to battle each other, I thought Ash would win against Cameron and lose to Virgil at the finals or something since Virgil was shown to be a more intelligent trainer/rescuer who was also a League rival. The fact they had Ash lose to an idiot WHEN THEY HAD A COMPETENT TRAINER ON HAND makes the results more bitter. Honestly, they were all for promoting Eeveelutions during that period and a 6-6 battle would have been an excellent chance to give each and every Eeveelution plenty of screentime (especially some of those who hadn't appeared much such as Leafeon). Besides, Virgil had been giving off that 'Tobias' sort of vibe (the one character that Ash HAS to lose to) all along and I think plenty of us had expected Ash losing to Virgil. But nope - they chose Cameron and Virgil never even battled Ash despite being a League rival. Another reason the Unova League proves to be the worst way Ash lost.

So imo, ranking of the worst way Ash lost the pokemon league:

Unova >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Distortion World >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kanto>Johto=Hoenn>>>>>Sinnoh

I hope Ash gets a win in the Kalos League. IF he has to lose, I hope they make him lose to someone with a Mega Mewtwo or something Uber.

Yeah, I remember people thinking that Cameron and Virgil were going to have more of a Morrison and Tyson role for Ash when the Unova League started, but losing to Cameron instead was a big surprise. It's kind of surprising that they didn't go that route considering that they were hyping up the Eeveelutions. Maybe they thought that losing to a Lucario would be cooler than losing to Eevee or one of its evolutions. Lucario does look like a stronger Pokemon to lose to, but the issue was its trainer being a complete idiot. I'm not sure if a battle against Virgil would have been good, especially given the overall quality of battles in BW, but at least it would have a defeat against a competent trainer and Ash would have lost to the trainer who ended up winning the League again. Cameron losing so badly to Virgil in their next round just made Ash's defeat all the more painful when I think Virgil only had to use three of his Pokemon against Cameron.

I doubt that Ash is going to win the Kalos League, but I wouldn't be surprised if he loses to a Mega Pokemon. Mega Mewtwo or a really Uber Pokemon might be too much, especially when I don't think that Ash is back to his peak like in DP when it comes to his skills as a trainer. He's certainly isn't anywhere near as bad as he was in BW, but I don't think he's quite back to where he was in DP where he would need something like a ridiculously overpowered trainer to defeat him in the Kalos League.

 

[garrison-san]

Personally, I was more upset about Bianca losing to Cameron than Ash, largely because I felt more invested in her as a character. The writers seemed to waver between treating her purely as a joke character and actually taking her goal and her daddy issues seriously, and I thought it sad that, ultimately, she wound up being sacrificed early on in the League to Cameron.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Personally, I was more upset about Bianca losing to Cameron than Ash, largely because I felt more invested in her as a character. The writers seemed to waver between treating her purely as a joke character and actually taking her goal and her daddy issues seriously, and I thought it sad that, ultimately, she wound up being sacrificed early on in the League to Cameron.

Bianca felt much more like a joke character to me than anything else. Her running gag made her come off like a female incompetent Barry, which was just not a good fit for her character. Lacking any of the depth and development she had in the games certainly didn't help matters, especially when I didn't think that they handled her issues with her father or her goal particularly well. That being said, the way she was handled in the Unova League was still pretty bad. Losing to Cameron early on was bad, but it didn't affect her at all, so it made me question why she even wanted to enter the League in the first place when she was perfectly fine with losing and cheering Ash on the sidelines while getting ice cream. It also did make her focus episode where she got her Escavalier feel really pointless given that we only saw her use it against Cameron and she still lost.

 

[Cinderfella]

Here's the thing: In my opinion, BW Ash was not that great. Neither was Trip. So to have Trip out of the first round and then to lose in such a shitty way to Cameron was justified.

However, We all knew what Ash was capable of in Sinnoh and even prior, so I felt bad for that Ash, not the Best Wishes one.

Kanto on the other hand, sucked because Ritchie was an Ash clone. I do feel, however, that Ritchie was essentially what a realistic Ash in Kanto should have been like. I say that as in Ash keeping his Butterfree and not necessarily having a fully evolved starter. Originality is great, and had Ritchie not been a clone this would of had been easy to swallow.

I cannot say Kanto though because Ash did not win his eight badges fairly, so sad to say I thought it was fitting he lost in the way he did.

My vote goes to Hoenn. Why? Not only did Ash get Top 8 again, but Tyson(nice character overall) kind of stole the show. It was supposed to be Ash's league, however Tyson and Meowth got too much focus-so for them to win was kind of meh feeling to me.

I would of rather Ash beat Tyson and lost to Katie, who used strategy and was the fiercest female League girl he ever battled.

 

[Hidden Mew]

My vote goes to Hoenn. Why? Not only did Ash get Top 8 again, but Tyson(nice character overall) kind of stole the show. It was supposed to be Ash's league, however Tyson and Meowth got too much focus-so for them to win was kind of meh feeling to me.

I would of rather Ash beat Tyson and lost to Katie, who used strategy and was the fiercest female League girl he ever battled.

I finished rewatching the Hoenn League and I don't think that Tyson and his Meowth got that much focus. Tyson was pretty bland and the only thing that really stood out about him was having that Meowth in boots. If it wasn't for that, then I think he would have just been a pretty forgettable character. I thought that Morrison got much for focus compared to Tyson due to his friendship with Ash and generally having more personality in general, even if it was similar to Ash's in terms of being so competitive. Ash losing to Katie would have been fine by me since her strategies were great and the battle with Kaite was easily the best one in the Hoenn League anyway, but I was okay with Ash losing to Tyson. The battle was a bit rushed, but generally fine and it just came down to Pikachu taking on a bit more damage than Meowth. Besides that, getting to the Top 8 again wasn't so bad when Ash ended up losing to the trainer who ended up winning the League. That was better than how his League rivals end up losing in their next match and showed some sense of progress for Ash's skills.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Unova league since he did better in sinnoh league. Cameron doesn't even have the look of an experienced trainer. I just didn't see how Ash could have lost to him in the unova league.

 

[ManUtd22]

Personally, I was more upset about Bianca losing to Cameron than Ash, largely because I felt more invested in her as a character. The writers seemed to waver between treating her purely as a joke character and actually taking her goal and her daddy issues seriously, and I thought it sad that, ultimately, she wound up being sacrificed early on in the League to Cameron.

What I think that it is unforgivable Bianca the girl who used her Brain, and trying her best losing to Cameron who should not able to be in this leauge: Please look to what I said before about cameron and Bianca: -

Did you see his embarassing win against Bianca (Bel)? She must beat him 2-0; because she had a great idea when she used Iron Defense but she lost to first pokemon. Then she show him another great idea by using attract and then beat Samurat - But how a final stage and strong pokemon like Emboar lost to riolu.

Personally, I was more upset about Bianca losing to Cameron than Ash, largely because I felt more invested in her as a character. The writers seemed to waver between treating her purely as a joke character and actually taking her goal and her daddy issues seriously, and I thought it sad that, ultimately, she wound up being sacrificed early on in the League to Cameron.

That being said, the way she was handled in the Unova League was still pretty bad. Losing to Cameron early on was bad, but it didn't affect her at all, so it made me question why she even wanted to enter the League in the first place when she was perfectly fine with losing and cheering Ash on the sidelines while getting ice cream. It also did make her focus episode where she got her Escavalier feel really pointless given that we only saw her use it against Cameron and she still lost.

Ash Also didn't feeled bad after losing to him too

 

[garrison-san]

Personally, I was more upset about Bianca losing to Cameron than Ash, largely because I felt more invested in her as a character. The writers seemed to waver between treating her purely as a joke character and actually taking her goal and her daddy issues seriously, and I thought it sad that, ultimately, she wound up being sacrificed early on in the League to Cameron.

Bianca felt much more like a joke character to me than anything else. Her running gag made her come off like a female incompetent Barry, which was just not a good fit for her character. Lacking any of the depth and development she had in the games certainly didn't help matters, especially when I didn't think that they handled her issues with her father or her goal particularly well. That being said, the way she was handled in the Unova League was still pretty bad. Losing to Cameron early on was bad, but it didn't affect her at all, so it made me question why she even wanted to enter the League in the first place when she was perfectly fine with losing and cheering Ash on the sidelines while getting ice cream. It also did make her focus episode where she got her Escavalier feel really pointless given that we only saw her use it against Cameron and she still lost.

Well, that's the thing. The episode where she got Escavalier ended with her saying to it, "okay, let's work hard to get stronger and achieve our goal", or something along those lines, and yet its only other appearance in the series was during the Cameron battle where it was beaten by Samurott. To say nothing of how Riolu completely owned her powerhouse.

Barry may have been fundamentally a joke character (and like Bianca, he lost all but one of his on-screen battles), but at least in the end he was afforded a little more dignity than Bianca. Sure, he lost 0-3 to Paul, but he put up enough of a good fight to have Brock and Dawn commenting that he truly deserved his place in the league.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Well, that's the thing. The episode where she got Escavalier ended with her saying to it, "okay, let's work hard to get stronger and achieve our goal", or something along those lines, and yet its only other appearance in the series was during the Cameron battle where it was beaten by Samurott. To say nothing of how Riolu completely owned her powerhouse.

Barry may have been fundamentally a joke character (and like Bianca, he lost all but one of his on-screen battles), but at least in the end he was afforded a little more dignity than Bianca. Sure, he lost 0-3 to Paul, but he put up enough of a good fight to have Brock and Dawn commenting that he truly deserved his place in the league.

That's why I thought Bianca was a more incompetent female version of Barry. Barry wasn't the strongest trainer out there, but he had some skills at least, actually wanted to be in the League and was more upset over his defeat. Plus, being a joke character fit with Barry a lot more than it did with Bianca due to how he was in the games. Bianca definitely got a poor deal with how she was easily crushed by Cameron of all trainers, but the anime never really tapped into her potential. They were too busy making her a complete joke with running into Ash all the time, gushing over Zorua during the first Club Battle tournament and then focused, to a lesser extent than her Zorua obsession at least, on muscles in the next mini tournament. Barry at least had some skills despite being a comedy relief character. They did not even try to do that with Bianca and it doesn't help that losing never really affected her. At most, she would be upset at the moment it initially happened, but then she would move on like it was nothing, to the point where I seriously question why she even wants to battle or be in the Unova League. Considering how much I liked Bianca in the games, her anime counterpart was a huge disappointment for me.

 

[dman_dustin]

When was it stated during Best Wishes one had to have six Pokemon on them for a full battle? Hell, Satoshi ran out in the middle of a gym match to change his party once, I don't see why Kotetsu should be in any trouble. It's Satoshi's own fault for being a horrible trainer that he burned through a six-man team faster than Kotetsu.

It's obvious that a full battle means 6v6. The games and the anime clearly state that.

That's the point people are trying to make. They made Ash into this incompetent trainer in Best Wishes and that is unacceptable considering what went down in Sinnoh. The fact that he lost to a trainer who thought the Unova League would take place in Johto, and believed you only needed 7 badges to qualify for it, didn't know about registration, AND had the idiocy to believe a full battle is 5v5 just adds insult to injury.

It's not the staff's fault. This is the same group of folks who brought up Shin'ou, they know how to make exciting battles. There was a change of course for Shin'ou, it couldn't be helped, so they rolled with it. The very match before the Kotetsu match had Satoshi fighting competently, after all. Satoshi losing like an idiot to Kotetsu reads a lot more like "Satoshi really sucks this series, let's just beat the shit out of him in disgust." Best Wishes Episode #108 Scenarist Fujita Shinzou turned right around and wrote XY Episodes #5-6 which were good battle episodes.

Satoshi had it coming and the production staff knew it. They wanted to beat the shit out of the character and the restrictions that had forced their hand and they did so gleefully through the perfect blunt instrument, Kotetsu.

Are you suggesting they took their frustrations out on Ash?

That doesn't make sense, I'm not sure why Ash losing to Cameron was justified, it definitely doesn't scream "Ash really sucks this series, let's just beat the shit out of him in disgust" were the executive producers really holding back the series by making sure that there was bad choices allowed.

Did an executive producer say that Ash could beat Stephan competently but against Cameron, he had to lose horribly.

I know judging by the series, Tomioka wanted something similar to Diamond and Pearl, but then of course the Earthquake happened as well as other obvious storyline changes prohibiting what the series should have been. Like actually developing Oshawott into a Samurott. That was what was planned, but of course Oshawott was clearly too marketable, and an executive producer stopped any serious development for Oshawott.

But even with these limitations I very much doubt an executive producer came in and say "There may be good battles, but I want to see some really shitty battles and storylines, you have your orders."

The writers, Tomioka I'm sure could've written the series a lot better, they sure as hell didn't need to make Cameron as idiotic as he was, or have Ash lose to him in the way that it happened, honestly they either got bored, or sick of not being able to write the series they wanted, they just took their frustrations on Ash, and in the end, of course we got a shitty end league story.

So no, I'm pretty sure Ash sucked, because they made him suck, by writing subpar stories and storylines. Pretty sure Ash didn't need to be completely out of character against Elesa, and have to leave the gym, just because he "apparently" only brought Palpitoad to the gym, just because Snivy had attract, only for it to fail, because Snivy and Emolga were both female, and Ash forgetting that Snivy was female. Only to rub it in that "Hey Ash shouldn't choose not to use Pikachu" and he should suffer for actually giving his other Pokemon a chance. Of course the whole Pikachu temper tantrum was also out of character. I seriously doubt THAT much that Pikachu would care to be in an electric gym.

Then of course there's Roxie, let's make it a 6 vs 3, and of course only give wins to Pikachu and Pignite (well true there's Leavanny but we can overlook that because of what happened in the league). So no, they could have written better battles, better storylines, they just chose NOT to.

So no, losing to Cameron was NOT justified, at all. But maybe I can see why Lucario > Eeveelution

 

[ManUtd22]

When was it stated during [Then of course there's Roxie, let's make it a 6 vs 3, and of course only give wins to Pikachu and Pignite (well true there's Leavanny but we can overlook that because of what happened in the league). So no, they could have written betSo no, losing to Cameron was NOT justified, at all. But maybe I can see why Lucario > Eeveelution

Well, he not just not justified beating Ash, he not justife a signle pokemon if you ask me. losing to eveelution must be 6-0 not 6-3 my friend

 

[dman_dustin]

When was it stated during [Then of course there's Roxie, let's make it a 6 vs 3, and of course only give wins to Pikachu and Pignite (well true there's Leavanny but we can overlook that because of what happened in the league). So no, they could have written betSo no, losing to Cameron was NOT justified, at all. But maybe I can see why Lucario > Eeveelution

Well, he not just not justified beating Ash, he not justife a signle pokemon if you ask me. losing to eveelution must be 6-0 not 6-3 my friend

I'm confused. The 6-3 was the match up against Roxie (hence the 'vs' between the numbers) , Ash used a full team while Roxie only used 3 Pokemon. It was not a direct number reference to Cameron, it was only in relation to the quality of battles, and to show they didn't have make inferior quality battles to the point Ash losing to Cameron was justified because Ash was a loser, or whatever the case was.

If that's your opinion that Ash should've beat Cameron 6-0 that's fine, but definitely there was no 6-3 in regards to Cameron in my post since it was 6 vs 3, and even then that was relating to Roxie's battle.

 

[garrison-san]

That's why I thought Bianca was a more incompetent female version of Barry. Barry wasn't the strongest trainer out there, but he had some skills at least, actually wanted to be in the League and was more upset over his defeat. Plus, being a joke character fit with Barry a lot more than it did with Bianca due to how he was in the games. Bianca definitely got a poor deal with how she was easily crushed by Cameron of all trainers, but the anime never really tapped into her potential. They were too busy making her a complete joke with running into Ash all the time, gushing over Zorua during the first Club Battle tournament and then focused, to a lesser extent than her Zorua obsession at least, on muscles in the next mini tournament. Barry at least had some skills despite being a comedy relief character. They did not even try to do that with Bianca and it doesn't help that losing never really affected her. At most, she would be upset at the moment it initially happened, but then she would move on like it was nothing, to the point where I seriously question why she even wants to battle or be in the Unova League. Considering how much I liked Bianca in the games, her anime counterpart was a huge disappointment for me.

I agree. Given that they did portray her issues with her father as a serious matter, that she seemed to be becoming more competent around the Chargestone Cave episode and that the Escavalier episode ended with her promising to get stronger, I had my hopes that they intended to develop her as a serious rival in time for the League, although obviously that didn't happen. It's a shame, because I think that she was given a more compelling reason to prove herself than any of the other league rivals.

Like actually developing Oshawott into a Samurott. That was what was planned, but of course Oshawott was clearly too marketable, and an executive producer stopped any serious development for Oshawott.

Personally I never got that vibe at all. It seemed obvious from the start that Oshawott was being primed as Piplup's replacement.