Would BW benefit from being a genuine reboot of the series?

[Shinneth]

Arright, hear me out: this is not to discuss whether or not the Black & White anime is a reboot. We all should know by now it's not, and is in fact a continuation of the series.

However, I feel BW is so often disconnected from the previous series, usually disregarding continuity and not maintaining consistency with Ash's character, given his great number of achievements to this point... it often aggravates me. Most of us hated it when Ash's Pikachu, despite the power-down, had just recently taken down a Latios and then loses to a new trainer's untrained Snivy, right? Well, what if the previous series never happened? What if Ash was not a seasoned trainer who had seen hundreds of Pokemon species, as well as legendaries, participated in five regional League Conferences (even winning one, being a semifinalist in another), and didn't conquer the Battle Frontier? He'd actually be relatively close to Trip's level, and the rivalry would actually make sense. Most of Ash's actions in the series would make more sense, wouldn't they?

Really, had it not been for the silent cameos of Ash's accomplishments in his room, Team Rocket's presence, and Oak mentioning the other regions in the beginning of the series, it would have felt like this was a real new beginning, wouldn't it? A beginning where Ash never traveled through many regions, never caught a bunch of Pokemon, and never met Brock, Misty, Tracey, May, Max, Dawn, or Paul (just nix the part of the one episode when Oak namedropped Tracey). He could have met Team Rocket for the first time after the plane landed and their conflict would be relatively unchanged.

Really, with some edits and omissions, I think BW easily could have been a reboot/alternate universe series. If it were truly disconnected with the series, much like how Unova is disconnected from previous regions, it would probably at least be a more bearable series. I at least wouldn't be so inclined to compare it unfavorably to previous series, since it would be clear that BW isn't connected to that canon.

So I ask you all, what say you? Do you believe BW would be a better series if it were a genuine reboot? Feel free to offer examples of how the series could easily be more disconnected from its predecessors, though I think the only meaningful reference to the past series was Looker appearing, but since those episodes he was slated to appear in are shelved indefinitely, I don't think there's much to discuss there. Only other thing would be Ash already having Pikachu, but I think it's easy to fabricate an AU scenario where Ash has already picked out his Pokemon and simply hadn't journeyed off yet before his vacation. Or, go ahead and say why BW is just dandy as it is being in continuity with the series and wouldn't fare better as a reboot.

Also: Try to avoid the topic of replacing Ash himself with another protagonist. There are already other topics dedicated solely to this concept and we don't need redundant discussions of how exhausted/worn out Ash's character may or may not be.

 

[Jukain]

If they were that adamant about doing things the way they are now, yes, it might've worked better if they just put a new character in Ash's place, and also we wouldn't have the pressure of including TR either, mandating that they have to use Plasma. Would this fix all the problems? No, we would still have a series trying to be the original, only without the continuity problems, so it would just feel like a cheap knockoff.

 

[Winterdaze]

Essentially all it would take for BW to be a true reboot is for Ash to be replaced, which to me actually felt like it would have been the most natural progression for the start of the BW series (the lack of a significant league win notwithstanding). However as Ash's quest must continue for eternity, there will inevitably be a point where the possibilities of his character become exhausted, and disregarding continuity is the only way the series can continue with it's repetitious ways. You only have to look at the threads on Ash's character resets and potential replacement to see that this choice hasn't been well received by fans.

A new protagonist would be the most important change for a true reboot, though the writers would have their work cut out for them trying to make him not seem like an expy of Ash (for example, how are they going to keep Pikachu as the series mascot unless the protagonist owns one?). Personally I would like to see the hackneyed badge quest discarded altogether in favour of plot lines that are more character driven or focus on conflicts with the evil teams, using characters with less generic goals (or maybe no definite goals at all). Of course, all in all this is just wishes for large scale changes that will never be, but in my opinion if you're going to reboot a series then making changes to the fundamental way the show tells it's stories should be the reason. Otherwise, it's most pragmatic for a merchandise driven show to do what they've already done with BW, or wait for your continuity to reach critical mass where kids watching for the first time get locked out of the loop on why older characters are the way they are (in which case a discontinuity will eventually be established anyway). Which is frustrating to say the least.

 

[Almonds]

YES AND YES AND YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Rebooting the series and disconnect it from the previous seasons will be a success. Replacing Ash for one thing, and bringing in Hilbert/Hilda as the main characters. The show will be able to represent the game story much more and the writers won't have to make awful fillers.

Plus, they could bring in Team Plasma smoothly according to the plot. The writers could make a much more epic battle scene, and while they're rebooting it, the show should be PG-13 or so if they're going to include N and Ghetsis because obviously, their backstory is not really for kiddies... But they'l be able to appeal to more people than kiddies because since 5 year old kiddies aren't the only ones who play the game, but older children and teenagers, even adults play the games. The show would be able to appeal to a wider age group.

Of course, following only the game story will be too predictable and boring, so it's up to the writers to include twists or probably even produce an alternate finale.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

If Ash is going to be replaced (whether or he should is subject for a different thread) it shouldn't be a reboot the anime universe should grow. Retelling Ash's journey would be annoying and would pretty much give it the same product.

 

[Jukain]

I still think it would've been better for them to have not messed up the continuity and found a different way to express the "call back" to the original.

 

[Shinneth]

Yeah, I'm aware that nixing Ash and putting in a new lead character would be the easiest way to make BW a "true" reboot, but I agree if that were to ever happen (which I doubt), it should take place in the same universe and expand on it, sort of like how I believe it's accepted that the Legend of Thunder saga in Chronicles was part of the regular anime continuity.

However, I'd rather not focus too much on the "replacing Ash" factor too much as there are better topics for that, and besides that, I agree with the sentiment of a new protagonist not being as much as an improvement as one would think, because I think there's no way the writers would do a Pokemon series without making Pikachu their primary mascot... even if this is a Unova-based series. So because they'd be dead-set on keeping some form of a Pikachu in the series regardless of whether or not Ash was replaced, I don't think a new protagonist would be the solution because he/she would come off as a pretty blatant rip-off.

My idea was following along the logic of other series out there that have had their own "reboot"s. Most anime reboots do replace the casts from the predecessors (Digimon and Beyblade come to mind immediately), but then I think about our western animation where various franchises from decades past get "revived" with an all-new show not connected continuity-wise to their predecessors, but still retains the majority of the core cast. Transformers is one such franchise that does this; there's also Strawberry Shortcake and My Little Pony that do the same to varying degrees (I think Applejack is the only pony in the current series who's been there from the beginning, buuuut...). Voltron Force is another recent example of a "reboot" in a sense, though it claims to be a sequel to the original series but there are plenty of elements that definitely call that claim into question. Sonic the Hedgehog is another example of retaining a core cast despite having a bajillion-and-one different forms of canon... and that one falls under the category of both western animation and anime. And of course, Powerpuff Girls from our country got adapted to Demashitaa! Power Puff Girls Z in Japan, where the original cast was maintained, but re-imagined and not in continuity with the series it's based on, but still had essentially the same cast as the original show.

So there's a lot of ways one can "reboot" a series. These examples are just trying to illustrate my point that a reboot doesn't necessarily mean Ash has to be replaced. Personally, if they're going to drop the continuity of his character because they're too lazy to work off the maturity he's gained, then I do think they might as well have someone else in his place, but again, the whole Pikachu factor might not make the scenario much better.

But since there are plenty of shows out there that have consistent reboots while maintaining most of their core casts, just disconnecting them from their previous continuity, I think they could've done the same for Ash. The Gen V games in general have a theme of alternate universes/dimensions anyway, do they not? If they couldn't have competently maintained their continuity, a reboot with Ash and making this series a REAL "new beginning" for Ash and REALLY starting him over would've been optimal, I think.

 

[Madame Pika]

As an AU, it depends on how they do it (of course). Assuming that every other piece of Best Wishes bad writing was kept though, it would be nice to call discontinuity without being reminded that it isn't. Actually this would make Shuuti more likeable too. The rivalry still would be terrible but at least Shuuti wouldn't come across as Stu-ish. The world of Best Wishes seems so different anyway: more childish and light (even ignoring DP it does so.) The more I think about it, the more I wonder they didn't do this. It seem like a far better and more obvious idea than what they did do.

As a Satoshi replacement, only if they made the new trainer different enough. All I'd ask is the wind up Satoshi's quest first. I'm not too bothered by if the quest is completely different though that would be interesting to see.

 

[Bouffalant Herdier]

I like the idea of BW being set in an alternate universe, but I'd only be happy to see the end of the original Ash's story if he won the Sinnoh League and defeated The Elite Four & Cynthia, effectively becoming a Pokemon Master and finally achieving his goal. If he was suddenly replaced by another version of himself without that happening, it would have been very annoying, but that's pretty much whats happened anyway.

But even if the old Ash didn't triumph at Sinnoh, having a brand new continuity and a different Ash, Pikachu and Team Rocket would at least provide a explanation as to why their characters have drastically changed, and that alone would make BW a far less aggravating series. I doubt it would make the rivalry with Trip much better, though. Ash being outclassed by Trip would be more believable, yes, but Trip would still be the same obnoxious plank of wood we're currently seeing, and with Paul fresh in everyone's memories, he would still feel like a massive step back in terms of writing. Plus, Iris' comments would seem even more cruel and unnecessary if they were directed at a beginning trainer.

 

[Caseydia]

Since Ash didn't win the Sinnoh league I kind of knew he wasn't going anywhere and that the series was going to reset as always. Why? Because it's what they do. But right now since the series is already in the middle, I don't think it would benefit to reboot now. Alot of things are still missing. And it would feel kind of weird to push things in that should have been done since the start of BW.

 

[matt0044]

I think so. And I think Ash should be replaced by a different protagonist. A different and BETTER one from Ash, mind you. Plus, there should be no Pikachu (unless featured as a past Pokemon in later episodes) or any mascot Pokemon to whore out. The new series should take place in the same Anime-verse but with different characters as mentioned before.

Also, Iris (and Cilan) may or may not become the new guy's companion unless she becomes a recurring character that appears every now and then. Who knows? They might surprise us and have Bianca and Cheren travel with Hilbert/Hilda, considering that goals outside of being the greatest Trainer are barely explored. Disagree all you want but I think so.

All in all, BW might benefit from being a reboot but only if it differentiates itself from the previous Anime in a good way and had good-to-decent writers handling the stories. Plus, Team Rocket shouldn't be there since, well, they're not in Unova and a reboot should truly start over. Team Plasma should have a more prominent role but without just a trio of grunts.

My post sounds way too idealistic, does it? Well, a fan can dream.

 

[Feenie]

It would benefit!!!! So they can actually bring Team Plasma and N in(well, the anime will at some point, but...). Oh, and like Destiny Queen said, let's have Hilbert and Hilda(Hilda to a less extent) be the main characters! Then Cheren could work into as the rival and Bianca could too. Oh, and yeah, let's make is PG-13 cause N's backstory is too epic for anything below that. It's epic and dramatic.

 

[Duckgon Z]

If it was a true reboot, would it be considered another universe? I mean they would be OS/AG/DP Ash and his adventures then BW Ash who's a new trainer and his adventures, something like that. That would actually be pretty interesting, sort of like Digimon, but with the same main character, just rebooted with different friends. If it means not fucking up continuity like they're doing in BW, then I'd be all for it.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

I always like the idea of the BW saga taking place in an alternate universe with a different. That would really make me accept Dawn's departure because she doesn't exist in this universe. It worked with comic series, so why not Pokemon?

 

[Shinneth]

If it was a true reboot, would it be considered another universe? I mean they would be OS/AG/DP Ash and his adventures then BW Ash who's a new trainer and his adventures, something like that. That would actually be pretty interesting, sort of like Digimon, but with the same main character, just rebooted with different friends.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. It is sorta Digimon-esque, but a better comparison may be along the lines of Transformers or superhero series like Batman/Superman/Justice League/X-Men. Digimon tends to completely start from scatch with their individual series; characters and all. The other series more or less have the same core cast with each iteration of their show, usually with some tweaking, while their story/continuity is started over. So yeah, it would essentially be a fresh AU series where only Ash, Pikachu, Delia, Oak, Team Rocket, Giovanni (and the secretary who barely counts since she was only briefly in one episode of DP's finale), and Jenny/Joy carry over from the preceding canon. And of course, pre-Gen V Pokemon still exist, but aren't much of a factor beyond Pikachu and Meowth because of the series' setting.

As a note to the general group of users posting here, this is the kind of thing I'd prefer to discuss over simply replacing Ash with a new protagonist. It's not that I'm vehemently against the concept, but more that there are other topics here that center on that subject and I don't want the discussion here to get redundant. Assume that Ash is still in fact in this series, that BW is for the most part what it is now (just cutting all ties to continuity), because the point here is that people like me hate our current series for betraying the continuity it's allegedly part of. By disconnecting it from that continuity and making it completely independent of previous series, I believe it wouldn't put nearly as much of a sour taste in my mouth. I'd still find it inferior to its predecessors, sure, and it wouldn't fix ALL of BW's problems, but I think it would be a big step in the right direction.

But right now since the series is already in the middle, I don't think it would benefit to reboot now. Alot of things are still missing. And it would feel kind of weird to push things in that should have been done since the start of BW.

That's... not really what I was proposing at all. There's no sense in triggering a reboot while the series is already in progress. That should go without saying. My point is if BW was a true reboot in its entirety, i.e. since the first episode, then it would be much less offensive/sucky without seeing continuity from the previous series get totally wrecked.

 

[Caseydia]

That's exactly what I'm getting at. It is sorta Digimon-esque, but a better comparison may be along the lines of Transformers or superhero series like Batman/Superman/Justice League/X-Men. Digimon tends to completely start from scatch with their individual series; characters and all. The other series more or less have the same core cast with each iteration of their show, usually with some tweaking, while their story/continuity is started over. So yeah, it would essentially be a fresh AU series where only Ash, Pikachu, Delia, Oak, Team Rocket, Giovanni (and the secretary who barely counts since she was only briefly in one episode of DP's finale), and Jenny/Joy carry over from the preceding canon. And of course, pre-Gen V Pokemon still exist, but aren't much of a factor beyond Pikachu and Meowth because of the series' setting.

As a note to the general group of users posting here, this is the kind of thing I'd prefer to discuss over simply replacing Ash with a new protagonist. It's not that I'm vehemently against the concept, but more that there are other topics here that center on that subject and I don't want the discussion here to get redundant. Assume that Ash is still in fact in this series, that BW is for the most part what it is now (just cutting all ties to continuity), because the point here is that people like me hate our current series for betraying the continuity it's allegedly part of. By disconnecting it from that continuity and making it completely independent of previous series, I believe it wouldn't put nearly as much of a sour taste in my mouth. I'd still find it inferior to its predecessors, sure, and it wouldn't fix ALL of BW's problems, but I think it would be a big step in the right direction.




That's... not really what I was proposing at all. There's no sense in triggering a reboot while the series is already in progress. That should go without saying. My point is if BW was a true reboot in its entirety, i.e. since the first episode, then it would be much less offensive/sucky without seeing continuity from the previous series get totally wrecked.

Well, when you put it that way, it's still a no for me. In the beginning, we didn't know how the series would turn out. Most of us were glad Ash was still shown in the beginning because they thought only White/Hilda was going to be on the show. But entirely as a reboot would be like a special chronical or something because Ash would still be shown somewhere. If this was a few months ago, I would have changed my mind but I can't see a reboot now because everything would be different including not having Cilan or Iris around as it is now.

 

[Shinneth]

I don't see how everything would be different. Like I said, there's more than one way to do a reboot. The foundation for this topic is for the BW series to not be connected to the previous anime canon in any way, yet still retaining Ash and a few other regulars with roughly the same storyline for the BW anime itself. Iris and Cilan would still be around, we'd have the same rivals, and until/if the anime decides to debut them (small cameos or recurring characters), Hilbert, Hilda, N, and Team Plasma are not factors here. Well, Team Plasma technically would be since they've already been alluded to, but this particular reboot has nothing to do with completely changing the BW anime other than cutting off all its ties from the previous series... which in the grand scheme of things, isn't a very big change given how continuity is treated in the show as it is now.

But while it isn't a big change, I think it would be a big improvement because it would better justify Ash's behavior and actions, as well as justify some storyline elements if we were to consider this Ash's first journey as a Pokemon trainer. One of the things I (and others) hate most about the BW series is how it doesn't fit in very well with the continuity previous series has built up on gradually throughout the past decade-and-a-half. And it just so happens that a major theme of the Gen V games is the concept of the worlds obviously not being the same in Black and White, so making BW an alternate universe independent from the canon it's based on would be quite fitting and would conveniently solve a lot of problems in the writing. It wouldn't solve everything, of course, but it'd be a start.

Various animated shows and thousands of comic book series have done this and it works just fine for them, as @Ghetsis-Dennis already mentioned. There's no reason why it wouldn't work for Pokemon, which already has several different forms of canon within its entire franchise.

 

[Trainer Gabriel]

I guess at the very least it would certainly make Ash's rivalry with Trip far more realistic and justified -even if he would still have the "unoriginal" factor, as @Bouffalant Herdier mentioned, and would still be compared to Paul.

May not be my first choice, but I'd take it over what we've currently got.

 

[Shinneth]

Another thing I kept wanting to mention but always slipped my mind was the notable difference in how DP ended compared to its predecessors. The OS and AG series ended (with their "Next time... and new beginning!" subtitle) with Ash on a boat, already on his way towards the new region he's set out for. Said "new" regions were alluded to just before the series wrapped up, and would spark Ash's interest. Consequently, he decides the destination of the next leg of his journey and it carries on through to the next series. That was a major part that made the first three anime series feel connected with continuity maintained. While Ash himself still retained his personality, his maturity was definitely visible by AG and the new status quo established that Ash did not need to be held by the hand by more experienced trainers to figure out what he needed to do (Brock was still there, of course, but by then he was mainly there to cook/clean/navigate, which was a role Ash couldn't realistically fulfill in addition to his main gimmick). After the OS, he was no longer the newb of the group, and even though he was travelling through regions he knew nothing about and constantly coming across Pokemon species he never heard of, he was handling situations much more efficiently. Some like to point out the time he screwed up in trying to catch Treecko and make it analogous to his failure to capture Deerling because he somehow forgot the "weaken the Pokemon first before capturing" rule, though in AG's case I can attribute that to a bit of ego getting to his head. AG was his first run as the guy teaching a newbie the ropes, and I think it's natural that he'd be a little over-eager in that role after two regions of being lectured. So even though he's more experienced and matured, he's still making mistakes and continued to make mistakes throughout DP, because as we all know, all the experience in the world won't make anyone immune to the occasional careless mistake.

But I think we were all surprised when Unova wasn't mentioned at all in DP before it ended, giving Ash no new destination to run off to for his next attempt to win a League. And DP ended with him running to his home... had he won the Sinnoh League, I do believe that would have been a fitting end for his character. But DP ended with Ash finally beating his own rank record that he's had since Johto, defeating the most challenging rival he ever had, and taking down TWO legendaries when no one else in the League could. So given that the guy who made it to the finals with Tobias couldn't perform as well as Ash had, I don't think it's a stretch to say Ash may as well have been a finalist; a runner-up. That's about the most they'll give to young characters in this show (besides Zoey), and even though I could probably imagine him continuing his journey maintaining the experience and maturity he's accumulated, I find it very poignant that DP had a very different ending compared to the OS and AG series.

Unova not being mentioned and Ash going home instead of going to his next region at the end of DP strengthens my view of how BW should have been removed from the general continuity and been its own canon. As I said, aside from the very minor cameos heard and seen that only served to solidify this series as being in the same continuity as the other series, BW really felt disconnected from all the other series. For the first time since the series began, we had Ash's age outright stated. There was absolutely no reason for his age to be stated, but if this was an alternate universe and therefore a true "new beginning", then stating his age would make sense. Trip would still be a bland rival and the rivalry would be severely lackluster compared to the Ash/Paul rivalry, but at least the two would legitimately be on the same level and as it was said before, Trip wouldn't come off as much of a Gary Stu. A number of Ash's stupid antics that he grew out of by DP would then make sense, and the frequent callbacks to Kanto would be more fitting because alternate universe BW is effectively a true "new beginning", analogous to the Kanto series itself.

In the long run, I'd prefer the writers just try a little harder to make a better continuation of the main series, but if there was no way to change the course of the BW series, then cutting it off entirely from the continuity we've been following for about a decade and a half would've been the next best thing. After all, Pokemon's a huge franchise with many different forms of canon within its games, manga series, and some parts of the anime itself such as the Mystery Dungeon specials. An AU main series would fit in juuuust fine.

 

[Cybersai]

Not really. I don't feel like a "different" Ash would work, I could only tolerate a reboot if Ash is gone. It'd be like, "Ok this is Ash, but its not the Ash you know, its a NEW Ash," like what would be the point?