Would Paul have won if he had used all his powerhouses?

[Ampharos King]

Paul's "powerhouses" could include a lot of different pokemon like Magmortar or Ursaring with very aggressive and direct battling styles and also relied on their special abilities to reverse the situation. It also included pokemon like Torterra and Drapion that were more defensive and enticed the opponent to attack them head-on. We cannot answer whether or not certain members of Ash's team were capable of defeating certain members of Paul's that were not used in their latest battle (i.e. Honchkrow, Torterra).

For the sake of the plot, Ash had to defeat Paul in a battle no matter what. The writers were gunning for that outcome regardless of which pokemon they forced Paul to use. It may appear that some of Paul's pokemon are more durable than others (i.e. Paul's set of three pokemon- Ursaring, Electivire, and Magmortar- remained undefeated during the trainer's battle against Barry.) Of course, Ash also endured battling some very durable pokemon like Aggron and Drapion. It didn't appear that Magmortar or Honchkrow were any more powerful than those pokemon.

I felt that the writers had wanted Paul to win all of his battles in the Sinnoh League with a 3-0 victory ratio prior to the battle against Ash just to inform the viewers that he is a powerful and skilled trainer.

 

[Caseydia]

It would have been interesting to see Ash lose so that maybe Paul could show up because I don't like any of Ash's rivals now.

 

[AceTrainer14]

Even if Paul came in with Arceus, the Dragon Tri, Groudon and Kyogre, Ash still would have won: the battle wasn't meant to be a realistic win, it was meant to be "Ooooh look, Ash finally defeated his rival after all these battles! Isn't he the better trainer through his method of befriending Pokemon?" Frankly, Ash would have lost a lot of battles if they were done in the games. He wins battles to further storylines, create rivals and general to teach the audience a lesson. As being have pointed out, Paul would have simply lost anyway no matter who he sent out.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Even if Paul came in with Arceus, the Dragon Tri, Groudon and Kyogre, Ash still would have won: the battle wasn't meant to be a realistic win, it was meant to be "Ooooh look, Ash finally defeated his rival after all these battles! Isn't he the better trainer through his method of befriending Pokemon?" Frankly, Ash would have lost a lot of battles if they were done in the games. He wins battles to further storylines, create rivals and general to teach the audience a lesson. As being have pointed out, Paul would have simply lost anyway no matter who he sent out.

That really depends on how you interpret the question. The writers of course wanted Ash to win and was planned to win from the start but IN CANON would Paul win if he got rid of Gastrodon, Ninjask and maybe Frosslass(Based on it's performance? I think it got knock out pretty easily) I think he would just bad teaming. Though I think what really would have caused Paul to win is if he dumped that dumb let a third of his team loss strategy THAT MADE NO SENSE!

 

[AceTrainer14]

I was just saying that Ash was always going to win this battle, even if he had used Torterra, Magmortar, Ursaring etc. By giving him the random crappy Pokemon, it made it a more concievable win (asides from Drapion's unexplainable survival for that period of time and Gliscor not knowing any decent ground move to kill Electivire and Drapion

 

[DynoStretch]

I think some of the people here are missing the point of the original question. The question is being asked in assuming Ash wasn't using his magical "because the writers said so" DEM powers that allow him to beat battles he should be crushed in. I actually brought up this very point in the Serebii forums but the people there got this false impression I was Paul fanboy (snicker) trying to defend his loss. Believe me, I would hate if Paul had won that fight, but the fact that Paul used the team he did was just as bad.

Thoughout the Sinnoh arc, Paul was presented as a nasty trainer who physically abuses, insults and abandons Pokemon in some bizarre way of trying to make them stronger, a military-ish style. He treats his Pokemon as if they're in a war, rather then a sportsman's competition, and berates anyone who shows compassion or love to their Pokemon. The whole rivalry between him and Ash was to ultimately prove that trust and love can win out over his ways.

...yeah, that sure worked out well. >_____>

Unfortunately, Paul is constantly presented as a superior trainer to Ash, his strategies always win out over Ash's, and Ash can't seem to beat him without a DEM coming his way. It got even worse later on when Paul 6-to-2'd Ash. You'd think this was setting up an epic final battle where Ash was going to get incredibly strong, take on Paul who would be using his strongest team, and beat him with his Sinnoh team, showing that close bonds and believing in each other can win over the greatest opponents.

Instead, what do we get? Paul uses a nerfed team and even then Ash still only manages to win because Electivire told the referee to take a hike.

Not only does this tell us that Paul's abusive methods are in the right the entire time, but that Ash can only win if he gets babied. What should had been a very inspiring message was reduced to just Ash lucking out. And they have the gall to excuse Paul's abuse by saying "every trainer has their own way of battling", yeah and I bet every example of child domestic abuse is just the parent showing their love. Gimmie a break. >.>'

So to answer the original question, if Paul did indeed use his strongest team against Ash in a non-DEM battle, our plucky young hero wouldn't had a Vanillite's chance in Hell.

 

[Tye Taylors]

I think some of the people here are missing the point of the original question. The question is being asked in assuming Ash wasn't using his magical "because the writers said so" DEM powers that allow him to beat battles he should be crushed in. I actually brought up this very point in the Serebii forums but the people there got this false impression I was Paul fanboy (snicker) trying to defend his loss. Believe me, I would hate if Paul had won that fight, but the fact that Paul used the team he did was just as bad.

Thoughout the Sinnoh arc, Paul was presented as a nasty trainer who physically abuses, insults and abandons Pokemon in some bizarre way of trying to make them stronger, a military-ish style. He treats his Pokemon as if they're in a war, rather then a sportsman's competition, and berates anyone who shows compassion or love to their Pokemon. The whole rivalry between him and Ash was to ultimately prove that trust and love can win out over his ways.

...yeah, that sure worked out well. >_____>

Unfortunately, Paul is constantly presented as a superior trainer to Ash, his strategies always win out over Ash's, and Ash can't seem to beat him without a DEM coming his way. It got even worse later on when Paul 6-to-2'd Ash. You'd think this was setting up an epic final battle where Ash was going to get incredibly strong, take on Paul who would be using his strongest team, and beat him with his Sinnoh team, showing that close bonds and believing in each other can win over the greatest opponents.

Instead, what do we get? Paul uses a nerfed team and even then Ash still only manages to win because Electivire told the referee to take a hike.

Not only does this tell us that Paul's abusive methods are in the right the entire time, but that Ash can only win if he gets babied. What should had been a very inspiring message was reduced to just Ash lucking out. And they have the gall to excuse Paul's abuse by saying "every trainer has their own way of battling", yeah and I bet every example of child domestic abuse is just the parent showing their love. Gimmie a break. >.>'

So to answer the original question, if Paul did indeed use his strongest team against Ash in a non-DEM battle, our plucky young hero wouldn't had a Vanillite's chance in Hell.

Thank you, this is what I was saying in the first post...and still...no one gets it...Paul should have won...

 

[AceTrainer14]

Yes, I do agree that realistically, Paul should have won. Ash had decent Pokemon, but all of Sinnoh was taken up by Chimchar and his evolution from being scared and whimpy to coming back and fighting back against his old trainer and kicking him to the kerb. A predictable storyline that I think we all saw coming from a mile away. Paul should have won and had the better method, but Ash is the main character and to the little, unintelligent children watching, they probably see it as a whole "Standing up to bullies" heroic thing.

If Pokemon was in the real world, Ash would have been ripped to shreds and Paul would have stood a chance at winning. Instead, Ash wins due to Paul's stupid team, and then proceeds to battling legendaries and somehow managing to knock two of them down with his awful team (Gible and Torkoal against Darkrai!!!!!!!!)

 

[CommanderPigg]

Not only does this tell us that Paul's abusive methods are in the right the entire time, but that Ash can only win if he gets babied. What should had been a very inspiring message was reduced to just Ash lucking out. And they have the gall to excuse Paul's abuse by saying "every trainer has their own way of battling", yeah and I bet every example of child domestic abuse is just the parent showing their love. Gimmie a break. >.>'

I agree with all of your post except this part. While it's true that Ash lucked out in the end by both Electivire and Paul's gracious time out, I think that we can all agree that Infernape was the ace on Ash's team during that battle. Why did Infernape train so hard as he did to become that strong? To prove to Paul that he was capable (in a way, Paul sketched his own demise by abandoning it, but that's beautifully ironic ). So in a way, that battle was fairly realistic (to my standards, at least).

I think that the message of the battle was more of "every pokemon responds to different training methods in a variety of ways, and it was irresponsible for Paul to keep at it for so long to the point of abuse when it was obviously not responding" and "be more open to different training methods" because I honestly think that chimchar was the only pokemon he treated so brutally.

That being said, I think that because Paul chose his team specifically to take down Ash's Sinnoh team, had he chosen a different combination, it might not have been as effective (regardless of his nerfed team). It may not have been as realistic of a win, but I think they could have pulled it off. Perhaps if they had a Honkrow vs. Torterra rematch, the turtle could get its revenge

All in all, I still think that Paul is stronger trainer than Ash...

 

[Adamant]

Applying actual in-universe logic rather than this "the writers are god and determine everything" matter-of-fact nonsense that's being used here...

Shinji didn't purposefully limit himself. He used a team specifically tailor-made to win against Satoshi. There was no sense of obligation, no sentimentality, no random picks - his team was what he personally thought he'd have the greatest chance to defeat Satoshi with, which was the only thing that mattered to him when he created it.

Going off that logic, he'd have done worse with a different team.

That being said, I think that because Paul chose his team specifically to take down Ash's Sinnoh team, had he chosen a different combination, it might not have been as effective (regardless of his nerfed team). It may not have been as realistic of a win, but I think they could have pulled it off. Perhaps if they had a Honkrow vs. Torterra rematch, the turtle could get its revenge

All in all, I still think that Paul is stronger trainer than Ash...

Sorry, forgot to comment on this.
So, uh... what you're essentially saying is that if Shinji had been given the enormously unfair advantage of knowing his opponent's team, and been allowed to specifically design a team to counter it, he'd prove he was a stronger trainer than Satoshi even though he was unable to win with his specific "anti-what I know about Satoshi'" team that went up against Satoshi's purely sentimentally designed team?
Does not compute.

 

[WatcherMark]

But the thing is that, given his dialogue in the episode, Shinji was surprised that Satoshi was using the same team against him that he'd used before (probably due to Satoshi having used different Pokemon to usual in all the other rounds). He only started to guess that Satoshi was using the same team when he sent out Mukuhawk, and had it confirmed when Buoysel was sent out. Because of that, I don't believe any of this 'custom team' rubbish.

The thing is though is that, on the whole, I don't really have too many actual gripes with the battle. Yeah, the ending was expected but still managed to be exciting. My biggest problem with the battle was the fact that Goukazaru was the one to defeat Tekkanin (with Mach Punch no less) despite the fact it already had one win under its belt and we knew it'd get another one towards the end yet Dodaitose, who was pretty much the writer's punching bag after its evolution from Naetle, was knocked out after only being on-screen for two minutes.

Seriously, Dodaitose really got shafted by the writers. I actually think it got worse treatment than Satoshi's Cotoise.

 

[Adamant]

Shinji's team was custom-built to win. Satoshi's team wasn't custom-built for anything, he just used the 6 Pokemon he used last time. Despite Shinji having the advantage of using a well-designed team against an opponent whose entire team-building strategy was "I'm using these guys because I want to", and still wasn't able to win... well, yeah.

Satoshi was the one handicapping himself in this battle, not Shinji.

 

[CommanderPigg]

Sorry, forgot to comment on this.
So, uh... what you're essentially saying is that if Shinji had been given the enormously unfair advantage of knowing his opponent's team, and been allowed to specifically design a team to counter it, he'd prove he was a stronger trainer than Satoshi even though he was unable to win with his specific "anti-what I know about Satoshi'" team that went up against Satoshi's purely sentimentally designed team?
Does not compute.

I can see that my second comment seemingly contradicts my first, so I'll just blame it on pure character bias

But in truth, like others have stated before me, Paul only lost because in the end because he stalled the battle. The ref would have called it for him otherwise. (hence why I think he's still a stronger trainer, or at least on equal terms)

Although chosing a specific team to counter an opponent may seem like the logical thing to do (and it is), we have to remember that this is the anime...and the anime values things like unpredictability and "sentimentality." So if we go by those standards, then it was logical that Paul lost that battle.

So I guess in my little head canon, maybe if Paul switched out his two pokemon in the beginning (which admittedly were fodder scouting 'mons) for his "powerhouses" there's a chance he could have demolished him. You know, just by believing in his heart and all that good stuff

 

[Blue1225]

Overall I believe Paul to be the better trainer and I think if he'd used his strongest team lineup he would've won. This isn't saying that Ash isn't a good trainer, i'm just saying that with the pokemon he used he would realistically have been defeated. Paul used a completely new team and Ash still barely managed to win and we've all acknowledged that Paul basically gave Ash a free opportunity when he stalled the battle.

 

[Missingno. Master]

It depends on what Ash would have done. If Ash had stuck with his original Sinnoh team, it would have been Lake Acuity all over again. If Ash had gone all out, on the other hand, with stuff like Pikachu, Sceptile, Charizard, Kingler, Glalie, and Snorlax/Primeape, Paul would probably have had his ass handed to him.

But then, this is Ash we're talking about. Ash "Aim for the horn" Ketchum.

Pikachu! Aim for the mustache!

 

[Cybersai]

Paul wouldn't have won. Magmortar was no stronger than Drapion.

Torterra could go either way, I kinda would have liked a Torterra Vs. Torterra battle.

*shrug*

 

[Chaosblazer]

^Ash's would've been slaughtered even faster that way--;

as far as Paul goes, I can understand most of his pokemon being switched or not being used, but i still think Magmortar, his own Torterra and Honchkrow should've been used at least, sure using Drapion and froslass to round things out would've been ok since Weavile was beaten outright by Staraptor and Ursuring had lost to Chimchar many times, but we'll never know if Ash can beat those three down, and don't start with the pokeringer, that's a skill competition, not straight up battling.

 

[Eitarou]

It doesn't matter.

Plot dictates that Ash had to win this final battle.

If this were some other battle, then yes, Paul would have won.

 

[AceTrainer14]

Even though Paul was going to lose no matter what, I still think they could have given him back his old Pokemon so we could have an interesting battle where Ash's Pokemon could overcome their past foes (Starpator/Torterra vs Honchkrow, Torterra vs Torterra, Infernape vs all of them, Pikachu vs Magmortar/Ursraing), therefore at least providing things with a more satisfying and feel good ending. It would have at least showed that Ash could beat Paul's Pokemon he had faltered to in the past, rather than the randoms he probably caught pre match (Random Return of Azumarill FTW)

 

[Necrozma]

Simply no. Ash had the power of plot on his side, that's all there is to it.