Would you be satisfied if in Legends: Arceus, you fight the titular Pokemon in a new form...

[Enlightened Titan]

...with these stats?

HP: 255
Attack: 180
Defense: 180
Sp. Atk: 180
Sp. Def: 180
Speed: 180
Total: 1155

Arceus is love, Arceus is life.

 

[Phosphene]

I'm not a fan of the many proposed ideas to make Arceus extremely overpowered and I'm a bit tired of people trying to make it into God, and I don't like the idea of giving new forms to Legendary/Mythical Pokémon a la the Primal forms as they're unnecessary and always overdesigned in my opinion. Having to fight Arceus as some sort of final boss with OP stats and a new form isn't something I'm too keen on, and honestly, I would be disappointed at the lack of the dev's creativity if this were an actual fight in the game.

 

[Enlightened Titan]

I'm not a fan of the many proposed ideas to make Arceus extremely overpowered and I'm a bit tired of people trying to make it into God, and I don't like the idea of giving new forms to Legendary/Mythical Pokémon a la the Primal forms as they're unnecessary and always overdesigned in my opinion. Having to fight Arceus as some sort of final boss with OP stats and a new form isn't something I'm too keen on, and honestly, I would be disappointed at the lack of the dev's creativity if this were an actual fight in the game.

If anything, fighting Arceus without a new form would be uncreative since everything would be the same as in the DS games.

 

[Phosphene]

If anything, fighting Arceus without a new form would be uncreative since everything would be the same as in the DS games.

I don't exactly want a regular Arceus fight either, at least as the pre-postgame boss. I'd wager both options would be an relatively uncreative way to try and end the main story. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Silktree]

I'm tired of overpowered forms. They could give it something like Eternamax to make the boss fight more challenging, but I wouldn't want to see it in my face for too long. Actually, there's a screenshot with what appears to be Sirfetch'd as a boss, and it looks messed up.

 

[PurplePopplio]

No new forms for Arceus. Rather than a fight, why not a quest to find items to unlock the chamber where Arceus is resting? Or have it go on a rampage and you need to find an ancient relic to calm it down?

 

[Enlightened Titan]

I'm tired of overpowered forms. They could give it something like Eternamax to make the boss fight more challenging, but I wouldn't want to see it in my face for too long. Actually, there's a screenshot with what appears to be Sirfetch'd as a boss, and it looks messed up.

Which is the reason why the new form would not be usable by the player.

 

[Esserise]

Don't really give a toss about the precise stats, but I would be cool with a new form for lore/flavor reasons. Doesn't have to be obtainable, either, since not being able to use Eternamax was fine. See, while I've always been skeptical of the validity of the myths about Arceus as the creator of the universe, it does seem like there's at least something more to it that we're not seeing. Just in general, it feels rather strange to introduce a Pokémon with such a high mythological status and then do... basically nothing significant with it ever. The so-called "god" Pokémon is something that I feel like you'd either just imply the existence of and affirm nothing concrete about, or go all-in on making it feel like an important entity. But ever since Diamond & Pearl, Arceus has basically just been an inconsequential secret bonus character. He's essentially freaking Pander from Bust a Groove 2. Even its type-changing mechanic, which was unique at the time, has been kind of outpaced in more recent generations by the likes of Greninja and Cinderace.

 

[Enlightened Titan]

Don't really give a toss about the precise stats, but I would be cool with a new form for lore/flavor reasons. Doesn't have to be obtainable, either, since not being able to use Eternamax was fine. See, while I've always been skeptical of the validity of the myths about Arceus as the creator of the universe, it does seem like there's at least something more to it that we're not seeing. Just in general, it feels rather strange to introduce a Pokémon with such a high mythological status and then do... basically nothing significant with it ever. The so-called "god" Pokémon is something that I feel like you'd either just imply the existence of and affirm nothing concrete about, or go all-in on making it feel like an important entity. But ever since Diamond & Pearl, Arceus has basically just been an inconsequential secret bonus character. He's essentially freaking Pander from Bust a Groove 2. Even its type-changing mechanic, which was unique at the time, has been kind of outpaced in more recent generations by the likes of Greninja and Cinderace.

Exactly. There are already Pokemon in forms that are stronger than the universe creator (in terms of stats), which is something I find to be off.

 

[WyndonCalling]

Hmm, given that Ultra-Necrozma and Eternatus already went with artificially-inflated stats to ramp up the difficulty of what is otherwise a trivial fight, I'd like to see something a little more clever with Arceus. I strongly suspect it may be bequeathed a Mega Evolution (because it feels like such a snug fit for Brilliant Diamond), but it might be novel to face, I dunno, an Arceus 'team' where it morphs throughout the battle and possesses a different stat distribution according to which plate it holds - and you have to knock out each one in turn, before facing regular Normal Arceus in the finale. Running with the Multitype gimmick feels like a good opportunity for a twist.

 

[Esserise]

Exactly. There are already Pokemon in forms that are stronger than the universe creator (in terms of stats), which is something I find to be off.

I think in theory you could have the ultimate progenitor/world-shaper be a Pokémon that's surprisingly small and/or weak (paging Mew), by saying that the task of creating the universe expended most of its power. Arguably that's exactly how they handled Calyrex, albeit on a much smaller scale in terms of the cosmology, but for several reasons, I think that's pretty clearly not what they were aiming to do with Arceus. Its design is anything but drained of power; it's 10-and-a-half feet tall (and thus towers over the player characters), and looks grand and graceful and otherworldly. Its stats used to be at the top of the chart, and its Ability to be able to take on any type is meant to give it a sense of universality (if the entire world came about because of this thing, then it makes sense that it could manipulate all the different elements we see in the world). All the while, Calyrex's base form is clearly meant to be diminutive and frail, but even so, we still get to see its true power restored eventually. Whereas Arceus's base form isn't particularly implied to be limited in some way, and yet, the Pokédex entries still suggest the presence of something more vast yet unseen (the thousand arms). The common fan theory about the form of Arceus we encounter being an "avatar" of sorts for a higher kind of being is a decent way to rationalize it, but if that's really meant to be the core idea at work here, then I would quite like a glimpse of that higher being.

I'm sort of of two minds about Arceus, really. Part of me thinks the vagueries about it; it's ill-defined connection with the Unown and the speculation in DPP about it being the "physical form" of the "original spirit" that exists within all people and Pokémon, feel like they were the right decision at the time of its introduction. Back then, Pokémon games weren't nearly as lore-driven, and Legendaries were far less prominent in terms of the plot. So having the supposed creator of the universe be a barely-seen enigma that people could speculate about because the stories about it were so sparse was, I feel, very appropriate for that atmosphere. Being able to either believe in the myths or question the extent of their accuracy was pretty cool and true-to-life, and in general it gave Arceus a stronger resonance with old Eastern creation myths rather than something like the Bible. However, the way that the games develop and tell their stories has changed quite a bit then, and so now, having a game with Arceus as a central figure and as the cover mascot makes me think it's time to really dive into it, because the presentation and magnitude around Arceus seems kind of outdated now in comparison to more recent Legendary and Mythical Pokémon.

 

[WyndonCalling]

So having the supposed creator of the universe be a barely-seen enigma that people could speculate about because the stories about it were so sparse was, I feel, very appropriate for that atmosphere. Being able to either believe in the myths or question the extent of their accuracy was pretty cool and true-to-life, and in general it gave Arceus a stronger link to old Eastern creation myths rather than something like the Bible. However, the way that the games develop and tell their stories has changed quite a bit then, and so now, having a game with Arceus as a central figure and as the cover mascot makes me think it's time to really dive into it, because the presentation and magnitude around Arceus seems kind of outdated now in comparison to more recent Legendary and Mythical Pokémon.

I must admit I was never a fan of the way Arceus was conceptualised - it effectively 'book-ended' the entire Pokémon roster halfway through the life of the franchise thus far. As you alluded, Mew represents an unspoken creation myth that doesn't necessarily entail incredible power or even intentionality, and I think it's a more effective form of ambiguity. Arceus' stats and ability are a more crude way of telling a similar story.

I think it's telling that Diamond and Pearl were the games that saw the rise in the 'mythology rather than legend' mindset among fans themselves, because there's an increasing disconnect between the incredible cosmic powers these deities can apparently wield and the game's mechanics - and it's equally noticeable that this was scaled back for Black and White and has remained broadly consistent ever since. Projecting my own distaste onto GameFreak's motivations, part of me wonders if part of the reason Arceus was swept under the rug for so long was a tacit admission that creating an actual PokéGod was a slight mistake.

 

[Esserise]

I must admit I was never a fan of the way Arceus was conceptualised - it effectively 'book-ended' the entire Pokémon roster halfway through the life of the franchise thus far. As you alluded, Mew represents an unspoken creation myth that doesn't necessarily entail incredible power or even intentionality, and I think it's a more effective form of ambiguity. Arceus' stats and ability are a more crude way of telling a similar story.

I think it's telling that Diamond and Pearl were the games that saw the rise in the 'mythology rather than legend' mindset among fans themselves, because there's an increasing disconnect between the incredible cosmic powers these deities can apparently wield and the game's mechanics - and it's equally noticeable that this was scaled back for Black and White and has remained broadly consistent ever since. Projecting my own distaste onto GameFreak's motivations, part of me wonders if part of the reason Arceus was swept under the rug for so long was a tacit admission that creating an actual PokéGod was a slight mistake.

This is where I'm inclined to be a bit more cynical and harsh toward the fandom. Like I said, Arceus's relatively low-key presentation felt, tonally, pretty appropriate to me. I get the sense of it as being a more obscure creator deity, rather than being, well, PokéGod, but the latter is by faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar the more common interpretation that fans ran with.

The way I see it, Arceus supposedly shaped the world (and I like how the scraps of myth that we do get constantly conflate the ideas of "the world" and "the universe," as I think that further suggests a very human-centric perspective about Arceus's role in creation rather than an omniscient, objective, third-person view), but it's not a dogmatic ruler or keeper of everything henceforth. It simply came into being, allegedly gave form to the "world" in some way (with a decent amount of room afforded to players to interpret this as maybe just symbolic or exaggerated, or perhaps as a natural, compulsory consequence of Arceus's birth rather than as deliberate construction by an all-powerful and conscious mind), and then proceeded to slumber for eons, totally divested from however the world chose to progress after that initial act of creation. Arceus doesn't demand anything of its creations and doesn't even care if they're aware it ever existed. It doesn't seem to have wants, and it's definitely not invincible or infallible or beyond the scope of reality. It can become your ally, but this doesn't require you to be a specially ordained "chosen one," nor does it make you be perceived as infallible either, because the myths about Arceus are not presented as a centralised belief system into which most people infuse enormous amounts of cultural and spiritual significance.

This is clearly jarring to many fans, who think that more characters should be shown in awe of the fact that you have a Literal God on Your Side. But for me, that dissonance works. I think of Diamond & Pearl as sort of asking the question of, "What was the relationship between people and Pokémon like in ancient times?", which wasn't particularly well-trodden territory prior to then. And I think it's pretty natural that Pokémon would have been viewed as these self-determinant, extraordinary creatures, in contrast to the very domestic way that the people in the modern settings of the games approach them. That's most clearly expressed with the folk stories at the Canalave Library, and the with distance that people in the modern setting put between themselves and the high-end "deities" like Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, and Arceus. Two of them have been all but lost to time altogether, and Dialga and Palkia are just sort of respected as cultural emblems, not as outright figures of worship. But fans are mostly out there thinking this would be Arceus's Wikipedia page when really it'd be more like this.

(This is also just the type of creation story that's most interesting to me in general. When I was in high school, I had a humanities class in which we were assigned a project to create our own cosmological framework, and I went for exactly that kind of folk-ish and weird approach by coming up with a creation myth about a moose-headed deity that shaped the world out of milk and I think turned its eyes into the sun and moon and its skin into continents, etc., and Arceus somewhat inspired that.)

But it's like, I can quote Cynthia's bonus dialogue about ancient humans being "shaken to the core by power they couldn't understand" until the moon turns to dust, but it's never going to overcome the more popular notion in fandom of Arceus as the Ultimate Supreme Pokémon that Definitely Created the Universe. Personally, I rather like the idea that there's this really strong and elegant-looking creature that undeniably has some power to create life in specific settings, but is that the extent of it, and did people of old times merely extrapolate their own meaning from that, or are we really only witnessing a fraction of its true power? Even Arceus's stats and the type-changing mechanic feel surprisingly low-key to me, because wouldn't you expect "PokéGod" to be utterly unstoppable and overpowered? Instead, it's definitely strong, but it's stats are just well-rounded across the board (a next-step-up from the likes of Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, etc.), and the Multitype mechanic is a technical illustration of its universality rather than being the Pokémon equivalent of something like Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Exodia, an instant-win condition. It's not like it's "all types at once" or "super-effective against everything" or something blatantly extreme like that. Instead, it's like, "Here, you can use up your item slot to have a really strong Ice STAB." To me it feels just a slight notch above Mew's "can learn every move" and "can use Transform to take the shape of every other Pokémon" aspects.

Still, I suppose it's not entirely fair to blame the fans; after all, you could argue that Game Freak could have done more to emphasize the ambiguity. Forefront the story of it a little more in order to call it into question.

All in all, it's not that I really want Arceus to receive some horrifically overpowered Ultimate God of All Time form, I just feel like that's roughly the trend of how the more modern games have approached their Legendaries (not in terms of the cosmological echelon, but in terms of mechanical potency - compare Xerneas, Primal Groudon, Mega Ray, Zacian), and so sprucing up Arceus to keep pace with that feels like a logical direction. It's getting a game that reexamines it in a modern context, just like Groudon and Kyogre did, which resulted in the Primals taking their once-unique but since-democratized Abilities up to the next level in order to make them feel distinguished again. And it just so happens that for Arceus, if they really want to lean into the "creator of the universe stuff" since Legends appears very lore-based, then I think they could make an unobtainable form work in a way that feels organic without shattering the game balance. Ironically, I feel like a new Arceus form that isn't cosmically vast would maybe feel a bit underwhelming, since Arceus as it exists already feels pretty daunting and iconic to me. As I said, Calyrex on the other hand, in its default state, was rather overtly missing something. So in a way I think that's where I diverge from your take; you see Arceus as having written them into a corner back then, whereas I think it was fine at the time of its introduction, but inadvertently planted a time bomb that would erupt and beg for resolution if ever power creep began to set in (which it did).

 

[Almonds]

Perhaps something along the lines of BW would be better, where the legendary fights you to test your skills and you capture it or befriend it. It doesn't have to be overpowered or anything.

 

[Daren]

Not really.
I don't like enemy only Pokémon forms (I always thought one of the series' main draws is that anything you face is potentially useable yourself but that got ruined recently) and that's how this would probably end up being.

 

[Silktree]

Arceus is a faux PokeGod. It can create multiple Dialga, Palkia and Giratina because they're nothing special.

 

[Enlightened Titan]

So Eternamax Eternatus should remain #1, and not be dethroned?

 

[Esserise]

Arceus is a faux PokeGod. It can create multiple Dialga, Palkia and Giratina because they're nothing special.

Just for the sake of argument... if we reverse-engineer this, then if DPG *were* something special, then surely Arceus’s ability to create multiples of them would also make Arceus quite special, no? I don’t think multiples of DPG being able to exist inherently means that they can’t be demigods (even though I don’t prefer to think of them that way).

Especially if someone goes all-in on interpreting Arceus as the creator of everything, I don’t think they’d even think twice about the idea that Arceus could create more than one of its servants/offspring. Like, if you created the very concept of time, you probably get to decide how many avatars time can have.

 

[Esserise]

So Eternamax Eternatus should remain #1, and not be dethroned?

Truth be told, Eternamax’s stats are kind of a hollow flex. They’re superficially impressive, but really all they are is a massive defense boost so that the 4-on-1 battle can be even remotely fair (or at least as “fair” as a battle you’re all but guaranteed to win can be). Amusingly, its Special Attack actually gets *lower* compared to Eternatus’s regular form, all while three of its attacks in the battle are Special-based. Again, probably less a statement about anything in the “lore,” and more just a balance consideration.

Kind of like how Silvally’s Multi-Attack has more base power than Arceus’s Judgment. Seems backwards until you remember Silvally is kinda shit and needs its signature move to hit harder in order to make up for what it lacks in its stats compared to Arceus.

Frankly, Zacian is a more impressive “usurper” of Arceus’s “spot” than Eternatus is. Even though Zacian only matches Arceus’s BST, it gets to enjoy things like an automatic Attack boost upon entry, a fantastic type combination, and an optimized stat spread. It just goes to show that raw stat scores aren’t everything.

 

[Enlightened Titan]

Frankly, Zacian is a more impressive “usurper” of Arceus’s “spot” than Eternatus is. Even though Zacian only matches Arceus’s BST, it gets to enjoy things like an automatic Attack boost upon entry, a fantastic type combination, and an optimized stat spread. It just goes to show that raw stat scores aren’t everything.

I wonder if Zacian can dethrone Mega Rayquaza?