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Would you watch the Pokemon anime if it revamp every several years?

Are you going to continuously watch the Pokemon anime if the story revamp every saga?


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The Pokemon Observer
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The question in the thread of "Would the anime be as successful today if they replaced Ash early on?" just consequentially makes me wonder the preference of the audience.

Using the exact same condition as proposed in the OP of the above-mentioned thread, assuming that Ash (and also his friend Misty and Tracey) is being eliminated after the Orange Island saga, using Jimmy from the Legend of Thunder for the Johto saga as it was originally planned by Shudo Takeshi, and that story will most probably be completely new.
Then for the Hoenn saga, a new protagonist (probably Brenden or May) and a new story is on the run.
That goes the same for Battle Frontier saga, Sinnoh saga, Unova saga, Kalos saga, and whatever new saga that are in the future. New protagonist and new companions (if protagonist need any companions), new story with new villains, or possibly new traveling objectives for every single saga.

Provided that Pokemon anime revamp like this for every saga, are you still going to continuously watch the show?


Please take the poll carefully, because there are a few things I would like ones to ponder before voting:
1) Because GF create a new generation of main series game only in every 3 years (not including remakes), the length of one saga may vary from 1~3 years, meaning episodes of 52~156 for one saga. For how long are you be able to stay interested for one saga?
2) Although many said Pokemon anime in that case will follow the game story more faithfully, but that may not be the case. So are you still going to watch the anime provided that it may not be the same story as the game?
3) Also, anime may introduce some original characters not in the game into the main cast. Would one be fine with such original characters?
4) Some said that every new protagonist of new saga will just follow the same path as Ash Ketchum wanting to become a Pokemon Master, but there is no guarantee that this will be the case. Are you still going to watch the revamped Pokemon anime if traveling objective of the new protagonist is the same as / different from Ash?
5) For anime with revamp story, it always happened that scriptwriting quality is not fixed. Some saga may have a better story and some saga may have a worse story. Are you still going to follow the show if story quality varies?
6) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION TO BE TAKEN!!!!! Provided that you have completely no preconception that Pokemon anime will turn out to be the one like we have currently if they keep on letting Ash travel to new region continuously. Are you still going to watch the revamped Pokemon anime?



For me personally, I don't mind they do that. Ash IMO is not really such an interesting character. Also originally I joined to watch the Pokemon anime not because of the existence of Ash Ketchum, but because the OS saga had an interesting story. I valued the overall story quality and smoothness of plot flow, together with dynamic interactions between difference characters including antagonists for whatever anime I had watched, much more than just the physical existence of a single character that is just there for the sole purpose to be there without significant progress. I'll continue to watch the show even if they replaced Ash, as long as the overall story with the new protagonist is just as interesting and enjoyable.

And just a little personal talk. The series works that I'm interested in, such as Gundam, Zoid, Macross, the non-anime tokusatsu Kamen Rider. I actually never ever watched the very first original saga of each respective series. Even for Digimon, my first one was actually Digimon Tamers, where I then search backwards when I became interested in the franchise.
I became fans of these series works despite that I never watched the very first saga, or that I didn't start on the very first saga.
 
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I would definitely continue to watch the series if each generation has new protagonists. I think that would make the anime more interesting and it would equal more promotion for the games since they would be using the game protagonists each generation. And to answer each point listed above:

1. That would probably all depend on the amount of filler, but each saga would probably be as long as that game's generation. Diamond and Pearl as roughly 4 years long due to the fact that there was a 4 year gap between the Gen 4 and Gen 5 games. Honestly I think it would be fine just like that. If the anime wanted to add an additional arc, like the Battle Frontier, then I could see that fitting in as well.

2. I don't mind if the anime doesn't follow the games exactly, but I would want important game characters to be treated equally as important in the anime. That would mean handling rivals, villainous teams, and any other key game characters in a well manner. Honestly I feel that they would do a much better job with that if they changed protagonists. The main reason why Team Rocket is still around is because Ash is still around and they're following him. If we had new protagonists with each generation, then we would have different villainous teams as well. Depending on the amount of filler, we could have room for more episodes featuring the villainous teams. But if they didn't go that route then I would still watch just to see what they would have done.

3. I don't mind anime exclusive characters as long as they don't replace key game characters. That's one of the problems I had with Trip during BW. His role in the anime was Cheren's role in the game, so why not just use Cheren and maybe have Trip play a different role? With DP, I could understand Paul, due to the fact that Barry isn't a 100% serious rival like Silver, or a total jerk like Blue. Also, I didn't mind Vincent in The Legend of Thunder and I thought that he made a nice addition to the trio of him, Jimmy, and Marina. I would be curious as to if they would have used Silver in the anime if Johto starred Jimmy though.

4. I would expect every main protagonist to college gym badges, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that they would want to be a Pokemon Master. One might want to become Champion, or maybe one would want to become a member of the Elite 4. Gen's 3 and 4 introduced Contests which featured a secondary goal. Since collecting badges is present in every main Pokemon game, then I would expect the protagonist to do the same thing. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it as long as the new protagonist was interesting and had a unique personality.

5. It honestly all depends on what people prefer. I would still continue to watch and I would have my own opinion of the quality of a show. I'm gonna use Yu-Gi-Oh as an example since 5D's is my favorite series out of the franchise so far, but some people may disagree and say that the franchise went downhill after GX. It really depends on the person.

6. Yes, I would still continue to watch because I would be curious as to what direction the anime would go with new characters. I would want to see how things differ with new protagonists taking over. It would be very interesting to see.
 
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It would for sure grab more attention, but each series grabs attention despite only Ash being there. If you think about it, they pretty much replace characters each season other than him so it will be about the same. Rinse wash and repeat.
 
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No I like a bit of continuity. Maybe get rid of one or two as they do, now and again, and the occasional shake up as in Black/White but a complete renewal with 100% main cast would be painful for me. It feels like a loss, I like to grow attached to characters and feel genuinely sad when they leave.

Lets take Digimon and Yugioh, Yugi was the star through all of it and it was hugely popular, after he left, the show still survived and does so I believe to this day, but it was nowhere near as big, I didnt care about Jaden and his gang enough, he annoyed me. The occasional cameo from someone like Kaiba was welcome.

As for Digimon, I loved the original series so much, so so much, and when the 2nd series came out following Davis/Veemon etc I was dubious even as a little kid, but luckily TK and Kari were still in it to provide some continuity and the original gang kept coming back so it felt ok.

Then tamers came, and it just didn't feel the same, individually it was a good story, but it just lacked the magic, I had no connection to these characters and they were always going to be judged by the first 2 seasons and they fell short. And I gave up towards the end as I didnt care.

So yeah its ok to change the cast a bit, but not too radically, some people should stay. Ash, Pika, Rocket Trio.
 
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I think the main problem is Ash:
a) not written consistently, and
b) not being showcased in what he does best: bonding and taming with Pokemon, and saving the world/region.

For a), the writers should give Ash a win in a league, and assign him as the character to participate in post-game stuff. Mainly, the Battle facilities, and the PWT shown in BW2, or the XY equivalent.
For b) have Ash and Co learn more about the mystery of the region, and battle the regional villains and freeing/taming the legendary.

I think Ash can and should stay, but the gym badges should be collected by someone else. Brendan could have done that in AG, Lucas could have done that in DP, Iris could have done that in BW, and Serena could be doing this in XY; all while Ash is promoted to mentor, like Brock did in OS. They should have had Ash move on to participating in E4/Champion/post-game equivalent battles by the end of DP at the latest. (Other points are, have Ash re-challenge the Kanto-Johto League for HGSS/FRLG and win, or hand Ash the win at the end of the Johto arc.)

Alternately, split the regional arc into two: show the regional protagonists in the first arc for the league/contests, and have Ash join them in the second arc for the villain showdown.

So, I say both yes and no: revamp bits that would benefit, but continue other bits of the story.
 
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I surely would. It would be very refreshing to see new characters and plots over just watching Ash continue on his endless journey like he has already.

1) Because GF create a new generation of main series game only in every 3 years (not including remakes), the length of one saga may vary from 1~3 years, meaning episodes of 52~156 for one saga. For how long are you be able to stay interested for one saga?
I've already done that for every series minus BW. I think I'll be even more interested since we'd have new characters each saga.

2) Although many said Pokemon anime in that case will follow the game story more faithfully, but that may not be the case. So are you still going to watch the anime provided that it may not be the same story as the game?
Sure, it could be interesting depending on what they choose to do.

3) Also, anime may introduce some original characters not in the game into the main cast. Would one be fine with such original characters?
I've been fine with most of the original characters up until now, so I think I would manage.

4) Some said that every new protagonist of new saga will just follow the same path as Ash Ketchum wanting to become a Pokemon Master, but there is no guarantee that this will be the case. Are you still going to watch the revamped Pokemon anime if traveling objective of the new protagonist is the same as / different from Ash?
If it's the same path, that's fine as long as each of the characters have different enough personalities and different ways of reaching their goal. If it's a different path then that's an even bigger yes. Diversity between goals would make me more eager to watch to see what each new person wants to do.

[5) For anime with revamp story, it always happened that scriptwriting quality is not fixed. Some saga may have a better story and some saga may have a worse story. Are you still going to follow the show if story quality varies?
Like I said before, I already do this now. If one saga is bad, I'll hope for the next to be better.

[6) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION TO BE TAKEN!!!!! Provided that you have completely no preconception that Pokemon anime will turn out to be the one like we have currently if they keep on letting Ash travel to new region continuously. Are you still going to watch the revamped Pokemon anime?
Yes. I'd personally be more interested with the new characters and seeing what they do with their goals.
 
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I most likely would not follow it personally, if for anything than for simple reason of short series which constantly change protagonists not having much of point for me. In such anime format no one stays long enough to develop same level of attachment toward main characters, relate myself to them and develop liking; like its case with long stays having history, developed relationships, better fleshed out personalities, flaws and charisma around themselves. Developing fondness and care toward characters i know for long period of time, thus increasing excitement when i see continuation of their stories made. Follow up using past experiences as groundwork on which new ground is break with protagonist dreams, insecurities and interests.

Ditto providing sense of continuity, familiar face through which new challenges and adventures are explored strengthening series storyline and injecting more suvstance in to it, liking when characters are part of some big journey,mission.

Fueling my passion and desire to see those i care about come closer toward their final destination coming of as much more rewarding experience.

I also feel how constabt rinse and repeat wouldn't bring much on table in longer run, just like cosmetic changes in repeadetly replacing Ash companions dont do perishing away forever anyway making their inclusion pointless in first place.

It would still be series about someone striving to becomervery best as trainer, Pikachu as main mascot of franchise would be protagonist main partner, as long gyms are main quest in games this would as result of marketing obligatons pocket monster series have transfer to main hero doing them. Alongside not straying away from typical shonen trope archtype of heroic, naive, bewildered, impulsive protagonists many Japanese anime are known for.


Under such circumstances i would rather prefered to follow Ash journey and progression of story over long period of time, rather than getting some cheap knock of going through basic similar path his predecessor followed.

Needless to say replacing Ash, Misty, Gary etc already after Orange Islands would be disrespective to characters and story plots centered around them imo. Because Ash goal of becoming pokemon master with winning league and defeating E4 being just one of major steps required to come closer to master title, Misty dream of becoming water master, become honored and respected trainer like E4 Lorelei she idolize, Gary rivalry with Ash etc. All of this plots are by nature designed to last and develop over long period of time to have characters grow naturally and in believable way.

Trying to cram all of that in 118 episodes would result in anticlimactic, contrived ending. In fact most character development Ash experienced as person and trainer happened in Johto and Hoenn, Misty becoming more independent and getting over complex of inferiority imposed by sisters, becoming stronger trainer and learning to better understand water pokemon(like Psyduck or Marill examples showed) happened in Johto and chronicles, Brock grew arguably most in Johto /Hoenn as breeder and at very end of Sinnoh etc.For most of them goals, personal flaws and plors.

Not to mention i liked Ash as character, i still do being one of my favorites. And if i care about character enjoying in his quirks and personality and want to see more growth with things moving somewhere, im certainly not going to favor getting him scrapped in favor of someone else.

To me pokemon anime shouldn't follow games that close, to the point of replacing everything and everyone just because new protagonists come with each generation(im more for alternative). There should exist balance between advertizing and artistic liberties pokemon anime should implent in narrative, its protagonists and plot. To have writers not follow games toe to toe, but to experiment with their own ideas, unpredictable directions in which plots and characters could be taken. Making anime more of its own product with unique setting, development, universal continuity and various adventires. Using games only as source for additional material, rather than turning cartoon in animated version of games(give or take).

Personally i always prefered type of series which have stable character and entity based story set within same timeline and universe through whose POV we can experience fresh aspect of new journey. Which in pokemon case encompasses going to next regions meeting new people and exploring unknown places,new pokemon team being built over course of region and gradual steps made with character enriching him as person and trainer makes fans root for it enjoying in sequels from started story about someone.

Granted pokemon do suffer from issues like stagnation in terms of development with its characters, having relatively weak continuity and connections to past and previous events which influenced story, companions constantly being replaced never staying long enough to explore their full potential ending replaced with unfinished dreams never to be seen again. Making impact and all started job about them be it Misty, May, Brock, Dawn etc in vain and irrelevant etc making fans sad and aggravated.But thats subject for another day.

But despite all of its imperfections pokemon series with Ash as its driving force have more potential, appeal and originality for me than becoming fragmented chain of animated series which after every few years cut all ties with past, history and previous characters witnessing merry go round over and over again.

Im not surprised if some are advocating for character being constantly replaced getting revamped anime version after another.Some people lose interest in characters very quickly not caring if they werent developed enough or if they will ever return,while to some they stay intriguing wanting more.

But for me much better solution is in having one big story which learns from past and builds on itself keeping Ash as main star.

Instead of doing reboot, i would rather want to see game protagonists like Lucas, Brendan, Calem, Hilda etc becoming either rivals to Ash. Recurring characters, or Ash travel companions pursuing some different quest while changing and evolving as persons in his company etc.

Having better writtewn anime with current main character i care about and want to see fleshed out more.

Another reason why i probably wouldn't follow rebooted anime versions one after another is because through constant revamps, you killed any chance of characters you grew to appreciate and like such as Misty, May, Cilan etc being seen again, enjoy in their quirks and dynamic personality going through new adventures and witness their work rewarding them eventually evolving as persons, gaining new skills and exploring on fresh, new aspects of personality we may not been aware. Wasting unexplored potential to do much more with them.

Something i wouldn't liked personally, but more power to those who want this.
 
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I think I would not watch it.

If they do it, the every series of the Anime will become a dull 'a hero go onto journey, beat Villainous team then become champion'.

If the new protagonist start out very strong it will be boring. and if he starts out weak then we must see the new protagonist start from zero all over again.

Although Ash seems to reset every region, but still in the league he uses Pokemons from previous regions. Although on screen he either have no progress or has gone backwards, for him he still improves himself every region he traveled. And I like the progress he made so far e̶x̶c̶e̶p̶t̶ ̶B̶W̶.

After Yu-gi-oh changed the protagonist I never watched them... so yeah, I would like Ash to stay.
 
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But the point is, is there really so much things for Ash to do continuously for 17 years, even if the Pokemon anime does incorporate continuity into its show?

Back at the time of Gen1, there is no side quests nor post game content such as contest, Battle Tower/Frontier, Poke Studio, Pokeathlon or PWT. It is only starting from Gen2 onwards that side quests and post game content are getting more and more that even surpass the amount of main story.
I can't imagine Ash doing things that are not battle-centered such as contest and Poke Studio, because it feels OOC for him to do such things. Although I knew that contest in the anime incorporate battle as well, but still it just feels something wrong if he participates these things.

Even if they are not going to follow the game content, such as doing the anime-exclusive regions and quest like the Orange Island saga and Decolora Adventure, but still, I wonder how long it could last before getting so stagnated just like it is currently?

From literature standpoint, there is always a highest "peak" a character can achieve within a story. When that peak is reached, the development of character is basically stopped. Dragonball and Naruto is rather different because the next season the villains is always tougher than previous, forcing the protagonist to develop, thus aim for a higher peak than the previous they had reached.
But Pokemon anime is a complete different story. Even if they let Ash continuously challenge Pokemon League of different region, he is not aiming for a higher peak than previously, no matter how good his rank for this time is. That is because difficulty of each league are basically the same, the weight of these achievements are just the same. Even he had become the champion of one league, and then go to another league and become champion of next league, he is not developing as a character.
That goes the same of the rumored Champion League.


Please don't tell me from character development viewpoint that 118 episodes is not enough, in fact that is actually more than enough amount of episodes to develop a character. Just tell us with words that there are a large amount of trainings in off-screen, where on-screens we are only focusing on important story. Then there will be more than enough to develop a character.
For me personally, I'm interested in the development of the protagonist (the skills, achievements, mental) and relationship between important characters. I'm not interested in watching every single second of the life of a single character where 99% of the time is just bored to death. That includes the repetitive training sections where only the result is the important issue, continuous battling with unimportant trainers on the streets (and repetitive loses during those battles), the tiresome walking during the journey without anything important happened to the protagonist, solving insignificant problem of CotD that is really none of your business, etc.

The current stagnated Pokemon anime is already anticlimatic enough even it doesn't have an ending. Provided that OLM does wanted to end it, after 17 years of disappointment, the ending won't be anything epic in my heart.
Giving an ending to a show is not anticlimatic. Ending =/= anticlimax, the point is how the story end, not when the story end.

I want to watch a show that has an epic story to tell. If it cannot tell an interesting story that something DID HAPPENED, I'll just leave.
IMO, no matter how good the scriptwriter team is, and no matter how interesting the character of Ash had became, Pokemon being an modern fantasy-adventure anime will lose the possibility to provide an epic story if there exist only one single protagonist. Hence I recommended Pokemon anime revamp every several years.
 
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But the point is, is there really so much things for Ash to do continuously for 17 years, even if the Pokemon anime does incorporate continuity into its show?

Back at the time of Gen1, there is no side quests nor post game content such as contest, Battle Tower/Frontier, Poke Studio, Pokeathlon or PWT. It is only starting from Gen2 onwards that side quests and post game content are getting more and more that even surpass the amount of main story.
I can't imagine Ash doing things that are not battle-centered such as contest and Poke Studio, because it feels OOC for him to do such things. Although I knew that contest in the anime incorporate battle as well, but still it just feels something wrong if he participates these things.

Even if they are not going to follow the game content, such as doing the anime-exclusive regions and quest like the Orange Island saga and Decolora Adventure, but still, I wonder how long it could last before getting so stagnated just like it is currently?

From literature standpoint, there is always a highest "peak" a character can achieve within a story. When that peak is reached, the development of character is basically stopped. Dragonball and Naruto is rather different because the next season the villains is always tougher than previous, forcing the protagonist to develop, thus aim for a higher peak than the previous they had reached.
But Pokemon anime is a complete different story. Even if they let Ash continuously challenge Pokemon League of different region, he is not aiming for a higher peak than previously, no matter how good his rank for this time is. That is because difficulty of each league are basically the same, the weight of these achievements are just the same. Even he had become the champion of one league, and then go to another league and become champion of next league, he is not developing as a character.
That goes the same of the rumored Champion League.


Please don't tell me from character development viewpoint that 118 episodes is not enough, in fact that is actually more than enough amount of episodes to develop a character. Just tell us with words that there are a large amount of trainings in off-screen, where on-screens we are only focusing on important story. Then there will be more than enough to develop a character.
For me personally, I'm interested in the development of the protagonist (the skills, achievements, mental) and relationship between important characters. I'm not interested in watching every single second of the life of a single character where 99% of the time is just bored to death. That includes the repetitive training sections where only the result is the important issue, continuous battling with unimportant trainers on the streets (and repetitive loses during those battles), the tiresome walking during the journey without anything important happened to the protagonist, solving insignificant problem of CotD that is really none of your business, etc.

The current stagnated Pokemon anime is already anticlimatic enough even it doesn't have an ending. Provided that OLM does wanted to end it, after 17 years of disappointment, the ending won't be anything epic in my heart.
Giving an ending to a show is not anticlimatic. Ending =/= anticlimax, the point is how the story end, not when the story end.

I want to watch a show that has an epic story to tell. If it cannot tell an interesting story that something DID HAPPENED, I'll just leave.
IMO, no matter how good the scriptwriter team is, and no matter how interesting the character of Ash had became, Pokemon being an modern fantasy-adventure anime will lose the possibility to provide an epic story if there exist only one single protagonist. Hence I recommended Pokemon anime revamp every several years.
Changing protagonist also will make the Anime lose every potential to become epic, like I have said, the Game has always been about 'a hero go onto journey, beat Villainous team then become champion', and we all know well the Anime won't be getting anymore mature like the Pokemon Special Manga. Without the interesting storyline like those in the Manga, the show will become the dullest possible.

Over the years they refuse to make the Anime more mature, so I don't think changing protagonist is going to help anything. And with all these, if the Anime get mature, even Ash can be interesting.

And all the examples of successful Anime revamping you listed has a more mature storyline in my opinion.
 
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リーリエの為に戦ってるトレーナー
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What do you define "more mature"? All of those series that Crystal mentioned vary in tone depending on which installment you're talking about. Like Macross, the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross (along with being part of the Macross franchise, it's also part of the Super Dimension franchise) was campy fun. Then we have the mostly live-action franchise Kamen Rider, which has varied in tone a lot during the Heisei era (we have darker well-written series like Kuuga and Agito, more light-hearted yet also well-written series like W, ridiculously GRIMDURK EDGY stories like 555, and then we have completely nonsensical toyetic comedies like Den-O and Fourze). Don't get me STARTED on friggin' Gundam.

The different eras of the Pocket Monsters anime already vary in tone as it is. The only difference between this and the other franchises is that the Pocket Monsters anime is hindered by having ONE protagonist for one, very long and drawn-out narrative that is not planned to end. EVER. So we're going to either have the main protagonist be stagnant, reset, or repeat the same experiences he's went through in the past because there's only so much you can do with one character over the course of forever. There's a reason why action/adventure tales have a beginning, middle, and end - or if they're very long like One Piece, they at least keep us occupied with something engaging, like an action-packed plot arc that takes up a chunk of space that would otherwise have been filler about mundane life in the Pocket Monsters world. But here, we have endless upon endless episodes of filler that follow the same CotD Problem of the Day formula. That's the problem with the anime - they're too scared to take risks, they're just content on sticking with the same episodic formula using one main protagonist that barely changes anymore as long as it's a 30-minute advertisement of the video games and toys.

If the writers decide to switch out protagonists, then they probably realize this. So even if they make a few really bad ones, at least they would be trying to keep it fresh for every installment - providing a beginning and a proper end for every protagonist for the viewer's satisfaction. Even if it ended up as a "dull" "hero goes on a journey, beats villainous team, then becomes champion" story, at least it's less dull then watching "protagonist that gets reset over the course of eternity and watching this character pointlessly bounce back and forth between character growth, when they could just use a new character".

Sticking to one protagonist for multiple series only "works" when they stick familiar characters into different continuities, like in Tenchi Muyou!. But if they do that, there's also the question of "what's the point of using a representation of Red multiple times in different continuities when there are plenty of other protagonists from the video games to use in one continuity?" And as I said in the other thread: Yuugiou is a completely different situation and should never be used as an example. It was originally a story-driven manga with a beginning and end. Reusing Yuugi Mutou over and over again was never a possibility. The spin-offs are just the result of NAS/Studio Gallop and Konami retooling the original manga's name as a toyetic anime franchise in the vein of Cardfight!! Vanguard and Beyblade.

But to answer the thread's question: yes, I would watch it. I saw someone in this thread mention how they wouldn't be satisfied with Pocket Monsters being a "simple short series". Really? The time span of one whole generation of Pocket Monsters already means more than one hundred episodes of the anime. THAT IS NOT SHORT. As a regular watcher of anime, I must say that type of episode count is *more* than enough to get things done. The typical episode count for an anime series is one cour (approx. 12 episodes). And then receiving another season is the work of miracles. A popular anime series like Neon Genesis Evangelin (26-episodes) would have killed to have had THREE more episodes to conclude its crap before the budget died on it (which it was then forced to do a real finale with a film instead). Now here we have the Pocket Monsters anime, which wastes more than half of these on near-identical fillers. C'mon now. You're killing me.
 
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Depends on how the story is written in each new saga. If it interests me, then sure I would watch it.
 
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What do you define "more mature"? All of those series that Crystal mentioned vary in tone depending on which installment you're talking about. Like Macross, the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross (along with being part of the Macross franchise, it's also part of the Super Dimension franchise) was campy fun. Then we have the mostly live-action franchise Kamen Rider, which has varied in tone a lot during the Heisei era (we have darker well-written series like Kuuga and Agito, more light-hearted yet also well-written series like W, ridiculously GRIMDURK EDGY stories like 555, and then we have completely nonsensical toyetic comedies like Den-O and Fourze). Don't get me STARTED on friggin' Gundam.
I think a rating would define the best, the Pokemon Anime will be rated K and the other anime you listed will be rated atleast a K+ or T.
The different eras of the Pocket Monsters anime already vary in tone as it is. The only difference between this and the other franchises is that the Pocket Monsters anime is hindered by having ONE protagonist for one, very long and drawn-out narrative that is not planned to end. EVER. So we're going to either have the main protagonist be stagnant, reset, or repeat the same experiences he's went through in the past because there's only so much you can do with one character over the course of forever. There's a reason why action/adventure tales have a beginning, middle, and end - or if they're very long like One Piece, they at least keep us occupied with something engaging, like an action-packed plot arc that takes up a chunk of space that would otherwise have been filler about mundane life in the Pocket Monsters world. But here, we have endless upon endless episodes of filler that follow the same CotD Problem of the Day formula. That's the problem with the anime - they're too scared to take risks, they're just content on sticking with the same episodic formula using one main protagonist that barely changes anymore as long as it's a 30-minute advertisement of the video games and toys.
Now here we have the Pocket Monsters anime, which wastes more than half of these on near-identical fillers. C'mon now. You're killing me.
Yes, it is a 30 minute advertisement of the game, where is the only reason the anime exists.

The writers can make it like the Marvels series, whenever the hero gets stronger, all they need is to get a stronger enemy. They don't have to reset Ash, but they did. I never liked their decision on resetting Ash, in fact i hated it.

And if you watch the other series you mentioned carefully, they do have modified version of fillers in the same formula. Just they did it well that no one feels it. The writer just try to distract viewers away from the similarity with the varying reaction of the new characters and outcome.

If you ask me, One Piece is one of the dullest possible Anime in existence. They have ran out of ideas and the special abilities of those 'new opponents' are either similar to one existed or become as ridiculous as crap that they need Deus Ex Machina to win.
If the writers decide to switch out protagonists, then they probably realize this. So even if they make a few really bad ones, at least they would be trying to keep it fresh for every installment - providing a beginning and a proper end for every protagonist for the viewer's satisfaction. Even if it ended up as a "dull" "hero goes on a journey, beats villainous team, then becomes champion" story, at least it's less dull then watching "protagonist that gets reset over the course of eternity and watching this character pointlessly bounce back and forth between character growth, when they could just use a new character".
This one is definitely my personal opinion. I prefer watching a character reset than dull heroes doing that 'beat Villainous team then become champion'. Even though my top most preference is Ash not resetting.
 
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I think a rating would define the best, the Pokemon Anime will be rated K and the other anime you listed will be rated atleast a K+ or T.
For older audiences =/= more mature. That's liking saying Resident Evil 6 or Call of Duty is more mature than Ni no Kuni because guns, blood, Rated M for Mature. pls.

Also, Kamen Rider is for kids and is pretty much aimed at the SAME audience as Pocket Monsters (yet manages to have a mature, well-written story for quite a few series). Gundam has mostly teen-orientated series, but SD Gundam and Gundam Build Fighters are for younger kids as well. And, as already stated, the first installment of Macross was campy and family-friendly. Likewise, Macross 7 was also campy. Oh, but wait, it's aimed at older audiences! That must mean it's more mature!

Lucky Star and... friggin' K-ON! are aimed at older men. One would have to be insane to suggest that those are mature. And don't get me started on western cartoons aimed at "adults". I'm not shooting comedies down or anything. But they're not mature. And mature doesn't automatically mean something is good either. It works for some series, falls flat for others. "Tone" varies across multimedia and is not synonymous with quality. I'd never want Daily Lives of Highschool Boys or Nichijou to be mature, for instance.

Yes, it is a 30 minute advertisement of the game, where is the only reason the anime exists.
Your point? Gundam and Kamen Rider are endorsed by friggin' BANDAI (who are now affiliated with SCAMCO, er, I mean Namco). They have always shat toy and model kit commercials every episode. Especially newer Kamen Rider shows, that have become very toyetic and light-hearted in response to Bandai wanting to sell more toys and also in reaction to depressing Japanese disasters. But no matter how many stupid gimmicky voices come out of the newer Riders' belts that scream "BUY OUR TOYS", Kamen Rider still manages to have a better story than the Pocket Monsters anime.

Also, pretty much every product in the world is made to sell something in some form or another. Batman (to be honest, superhero fiction in general, but Batman in particular because that guy prints money for DC and Warner Bros.), exists to sell action figures and comic books, but the cartoon adaptations are often lauded for having some of the best, mature stories out there. Being a half hour-long "commercial" is pretty much "who cares" unless that's all it amounts to in the end. "VERY LONG TOY COMMERCIAL" and "IT'S FOR KIDS" are the biggest buzzwords to find excuses for why things suck. If the Pocket Monsters anime sucks, then it shouldn't be because of TPCi seeing it as a good tool to advertise the games/toys or because it's aimed at kids. If it sucks, it should suck because there are things that are wrong with the way the story is told and if the cons totally outweigh the pros. And if it wants to improve, then it should look at those cons and think about ways to fix itself.

The writers can make it like the Marvels series, whenever the hero gets stronger, all they need is to get a stronger enemy. They don't have to reset Ash, but they did. I never liked their decision on resetting Ash, in fact i hated it.
You can never have an action series like that when you don't intend on ending the protagonist's story ever. Akira Toriyama's original Dragon Ball manga ended at the point where several of the characters became capable of destroying planets consecutively. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann ended when the Gurren Lagann became big enough to hurl galaxies at the friggin'' Spiral-Nemesis. DC and Marvel reboot their crap every few years, hence you have hundreds of continuities in those, not just one gigantic cluster of a story (American comic book writing isn't known to be consistently good anyway, it's the cartoon adaptations that are lauded for making anything cohesive out of them).

What's Satoshi going to do for the rest of eternity after he tames Arceus and makes it his b-i-t-c-h? What, are they going to pull a "oh, last episode I had all of this power, but now I'm just a normal rookie again?" Seriously what? There's an expression called "beating a dead horse" and an expression called "overkill". That happens to be both. Keeping him around will work for a long series, but it has to end eventually or else it'll still feel as dragged-on as the anime is now, just terribly more noticeable if they're going for the "progression in power" approach.

And if you watch the other series you mentioned carefully, they do have modified version of fillers in the same formula. Just they did it well that no one feels it.
I wouldn't say there isn't filler, but there's little of it because they don't have the episode count like Pocket Monsters to dick around with pointless nonsense.

But let's say we're talking about a longer shounen action/adventure series like One Piece. When THAT has filler, it's at least an entire plot arc that feels eventful, even if it doesn't contribute to the overall narrative (and mind you, it's mostly just the anime adaptation that has the filler arcs). Whereas we have Pocket Monsters, where instead of having this, we have hundreds of individual episodes using the "CotD Problem of the Day" formula - and often feeling like a previous filler episodes a lot of the time. Lacking awesome battles that glue your eyes to the screen, like some fans claim they watch Pocket Monsters for.

You know, what I never got with the anime's formula for each generation is that, people say the fillers exist to pad out the anime until the new games come out and to avoid filler "sagas" like the Decolora Isles. But that's just using filler... to avoid filler. In a Pocket Monsters adaptation that doesn't really try to differentiate anime-original locations as being region-specific, you can't really say "oh, well, I prefer if they stayed in [x] region for the rest of the generation" when it quite honestly makes no difference. A forest could be anywhere, as well as many of the locations used in fillers that do not exist in the games. At the end of the day, it's still filler regardless. I really don't get it.

If you ask me, One Piece is one of the dullest possible Anime in existence. They have ran out of ideas and the special abilities of those 'new opponents' are either similar to one existed or become as ridiculous as crap that they need Deus Ex Machina to win.
Right. You clearly have not read watched One Piece then. I'll leave that argument to @Captain Blue, since he's bigger fan of Oda's lovechild than I am.

(Now, if we were talking about Fairy Tail, I would agree with you. Now that's a long-running shounen that's desperate and running out of ideas. The author's previous work, Rave, was much better. And had direction.)
 
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For older audiences =/= more mature. That's liking saying Resident Evil 6 or Call of Duty is more mature than Ni no Kuni because guns, blood, Rated M for Mature. pls.
I never said I use other third party ratings to rate the Animes, I rated them in my own point of view.

Also, Kamen Rider is for kids and is pretty much aimed at the SAME audience as Pocket Monsters (yet manages to have a mature, well-written story for quite a few series). Gundam has mostly teen-orientated series, but SD Gundam and Gundam Build Fighters are for younger kids as well. And, as already stated, the first installment of Macross was campy and family-friendly. Likewise, Macross 7 was also campy. Oh, but wait, it's aimed at older audiences! That must mean it's more mature!

Lucky Star and... friggin' K-ON! are aimed at older men. One would have to be insane to suggest that those are mature. And don't get me started on western cartoons aimed at "adults". I'm not shooting comedies down or anything. But they're not mature. And mature doesn't automatically mean something is good either. It works for some series, falls flat for others. "Tone" varies across multimedia and is not simultaneous with quality. I'd never want Daily Lives of Highschool Boys or Nichijou to be mature, for instance.
So your argument is that the plot of the current anime simply don't fit the taste of ANY of the OLDER audiences. While the others managed to fit the taste of both the young and the older. So now.... I ask... How do revamping the Anime help if they continue to write in the same way? The thing is they wrote in this way, and they plan to stay with this way, unless changing the whole direction of the Anime, nothing can help. You are making assumptions that revamping the anime will change the whole writing style, that's a big hole in the whole argument. We can just end up with in Kanto Red helps CotD while in Johto, Gold helps CotD etc.

You can never have an action series like that when you don't intend on ending the protagonist's story ever. Akira Toriyama's original Dragon Ball manga ended at the point where several of the characters became capable of destroying planets consecutively. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann ended when the Gurren Lagann became big enough to hurl galaxies at the friggin'' Spiral-Nemesis.

What's Satoshi going to do for the rest of eternity after he tames Arceus and makes it his b-i-t-c-h? What, are they going to pull a "oh, last episode I had all of this power, but now I'm just a normal rookie again?" Seriously what? There's an expression called "beating a dead horse" and an expression called "overkill". That happens to be both. Keeping him around will work for a long series, but it has to end eventually or else it'll still feel as dragged-on as the anime is now, just terribly more noticeable if they're going for the "progression in power" approach.
Pokemon Anime has ever been about bonding with your Pokemon. Ash will never catch any Legendary Pokemon, Ash will train his Pokemon to be as strong as them. That will no doubt be a long journey. SO don't worry about Ash throwing a galaxy at Giovanni, because it will not happen. And Ash uses new Pokemon at new region, if the writers manages to keep Ash's ability as a trainer, and making him handle the new Pokemon with some skill, there will still be a probability that he lost due to the Pokemons are still new to him. He will never become as overpower as any of the characters you just mentioned. So if I can make them do anything, I will make them reset everyone but Ash, I will appreciate it.

I wouldn't say there isn't filler, but there's little of it because they don't have the episode count like Pocket Monsters to dick around with pointless nonsense.
I never said they have fillers, I said they also have fillers in similar formula.

But let's say we're talking about a longer shounen action/adventure series like One Piece. When THAT has filler, it's at least an entire plot arc that feels eventful, even if it doesn't contribute to the overall narrative (and mind you, it's mostly just the anime adaptation that has the filler arcs). Whereas we have Pocket Monsters, where instead of having this, we have hundreds of individual episodes using the "CotD Problem of the Day" formula - and often feeling like a previous filler episodes a lot of the time. Lacking awesome battles that glue your eyes to the screen, like some fans claim they watch Pocket Monsters for.
One Piece's filler is eventful because you think it is, where Pokemon's filler if I say that they are eventful, its because I think it is. And "CotD Problem of the Day" is they way of writing. Revamping the anime don't necessarily change the way of writing. If they scrap of this formula from the current one it will be as good.

You know, what I never got with the anime's formula for each generation is that, people say the fillers exist to pad out the anime until the new games come out and to avoid filler "sagas" like the Decolora Isles. But that's just using filler... to avoid filler. In a Pocket Monsters adaptation that doesn't really try to differentiate anime-original locations as being region-specific, you can't really say "oh, well, I prefer if they stayed in [x] region for the rest of the generation" when it quite honestly makes no difference. A forest could be anywhere, as well as many of the locations used in fillers that do not exist in the games. At the end of the day, it's still filler regardless. I really don't get it.
No one saw the original script of One Piece except for the writer himself. Its all just my speculation that you can simple ignore but then the story might have been about beating all the 7 seas and the story finishes. All other arcs are nothing more than fillers. You can blame Pokemon for making filler arcs obvious though.

If you ask me, One Piece is one of the dullest possible Anime in existence. They have ran out of ideas and the special abilities of those 'new opponents' are either similar to one existed or become as ridiculous as crap that they need Deus Ex Machina to win.
Right. You clearly have not watched One Piece then. I'll leave that argument to @Captain Blue, since he's bigger fan of Oda's lovechild than I am.
Right... Get him here. Give evidences though... not just ranting at me.
 
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I never said I use other third party ratings to rate the Animes, I rated them in my own point of view.
??? I'm saying you're correlating "target audiences" with "maturity of the content" which is completely incorrect.

And I'm not pulling any of this out of thin air. You said this.

"And all the examples of successful Anime revamping you listed has a more mature storyline in my opinion."
"I think a rating would define the best, the Pokemon Anime will be rated K and the other anime you listed will be rated atleast a K+ or T."

(BTW, "K" is not a rating that I know of. If we're going by ESRB video game ratings [if the "T" is any indication], the Pocket Monsters anime would be an E or E10+. Earlier content not included. Japanese film ratings would consider the Pocket Monsters anime a G, PG-12 at the most (which, in fact, is the case with some of the feature films). Adding unnecessary content for the sake of being "graphic" [which all ratings basically amount to - sexual content, inappropriate language, and graphic violence] does not mean that the quality is made better. Ratings are also not entirely the same as target demographics. Something could be clean and viewable for younger audiences, but are intended to appeal to an older group]. The level of graphic content does not directly go side-by-side with "maturity", etc.)

So your argument is that the plot of the current anime simply don't fit the taste of ANY of the OLDER audiences. While the others managed to fit the taste of both the young and the older. So now.... I ask... How do revamping the Anime help if they continue to write in the same way? The thing is they wrote in this way, and they plan to stay with this way, unless changing the whole direction of the Anime. You are making assumptions that revamping the anime will change the whole writing style, that's a big hole in the whole argument.
You were saying the anime would be better, regardless of whether or not they decide to switch protagonists, as long as they make the story more "mature". Then you said that Crystal's examples of better-written anime series were all aimed at older audiences and were thus more mature. And I countered this by pointing out the contrary. The contrary, of which, are facts which cannot be refuted. I don't see how that's irrelevant to your argument?

And I've already pointed out why I feel the anime would be much better-structured in a literary perspective had they decided to switch protagonists (beginning, middle, and end), even if it sticks to the same writing formula, along with the necessary points. I don't feel the need to repeat myself (I have a feeling I will anyway). Anything is better than "let's force ourselves to write about this forever."

As for the "assumption" bit: You're arguing that it's better if these same writers hypothetically changed their writing style with the current series, and I'm arguing that switching out the protagonists... while changing their writing style would be a better alternative. News flash, I'm not the only one making assumptions. It's the same assumption. The deviation here is whether or not it'll be better using the same protagonist forever.

Pokemon Anime has ever been about bonding with your Pokemon. Ash will never catch any Legendary Pokemon, Ash will train his Pokemon to be as strong as them.
I wasn't being entirely serious when I said "tame Arceus and make it his b-i-t-c-h". I was creating a point by making a parallel between Gurren Lagann hurling galaxies and the threshold of power being turning ALPHA AS FUUUU GodMons into Beta- You know what, forget it, I hate explaining jokes.

That will no doubt be a long journey. SO don't worry about Ash throwing a galaxy at Giovanni, because it will not happen. And Ash uses new Pokemon at new region, if the writers manages to keep Ash's ability as a trainer, and making him handle the new Pokemon with some skill, there will still be a probability that he lost due to the Pokemons are still new to him. He will never become as overpower as any of the characters you just mentioned. So if I can make them do anything, I will make them reset everyone but Ash, I will appreciate it.
You're missing my point. There's a limit to how much one character can progress in strength. If they keep going on forever and progress, without ANY resets, that's where it will eventually come to. What are they going to do then?

Which is exactly why the anime just resets him or keeps him about the same. There was a discussion earlier about what is or isn't anticlimactic. That is anticlimactic. Building something up and not following through with it. Keep in mind that I do agree that the current anime would improve if they simply changed the formula and constantly developed Satoshi without resetting him. But for that to work, they'd have to eventually end his story at some point. Otherwise, it'll end up being more of the same eventually, just on a grander scale. There's going to be a question why they don't just put the old horse to rest and use a new character.

For instance, in my Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann example (mind you, a series about doing the impossible; "touching the untouchable, break the unbreakable ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWAH"), it was always set to end when the Gurren Lagann got that powerful. Because anything after that would have been forced. Same with any other tale that involves progression in power.

I never said they have fillers, I said they also have fillers in similar formula.
>"I never said they have fillers"
>then says they have fillers

>greentexting outside of 4chan

One Piece's filler is eventful because you think it is, where Pokemon's filler if I say that they are eventful, its because I think it is. And "CotD Problem of the Day" is they way of writing. Revamping the anime don't necessarily change the way of writing. If they scrap of this formula from the current one it will be as good.
There's a point where you really can't use the opinion card. "Less things happen in Batman Begins compared to Barney & Friends, that's my opinion." I don't like Batman Begins (much less the entire Nolan trilogy), as much as other Batman tales, but I'm not going to deny that a bunch crap went on in that film compared to friggin' Barney & Friends... I could insist that it's my opinion, of course, but it isn't true. At all.

A revamp is a hypothetical situation. If a revamp happens to begin with, that means that the writers acknowledge that there *might* be something wrong with the series, and are actually trying to figure out ways to fix it. Even if they make one or two mediocre series with the same formula, maybe, just maybe they'll pick up on that and come up with a style that's more fresh, because that's what revamps are for to begin with. It's cause-and-effect common sense. Why would they replace the main protagonist/remake the series after 17 years of using only him? To make the series more fresh! Essentially this is a hypothetical world where they decided to scrap the current series in favor of remaking it or making a new one. I'm presenting a cause for them doing this, and giving the benefit of the doubt to the writers' artistic integrity (which this forum loves me doing... or else), I can only really see that the reason being is that they're actively trying to improve the series. Or, if you dare so claim the blasphemous sin that the writers we have now are terrible at what they do no matter how much they try to improve the series -old dogs that can't learn new tricks- then OLM can get new writers for the reboot. Problem solved. I even listed some great candidates in the other thread linked in the OP.

And recall Takeshi Shudo's blog entries, where he stated he wanted to take the series in a slightly different writing direction than the current formula (as well as giving the TRio more significant roles instead of being a trio of reusable MoTW), but the rest of the team wanted to stick with the current formula because it required minimal effort. It works if you're going to do this forever and are content with the show going by as an advertisement for toys and nothing more. I'm making the fair assumption that keeping Satoshi uses much of the same mindset... mostly because it's the same people.

You know, what I never got with the anime's formula for each generation is that, people say the fillers exist to pad out the anime until the new games come out and to avoid filler "sagas" like the Decolora Isles. But that's just using filler... to avoid filler. In a Pocket Monsters adaptation that doesn't really try to differentiate anime-original locations as being region-specific, you can't really say "oh, well, I prefer if they stayed in [x] region for the rest of the generation" when it quite honestly makes no difference. A forest could be anywhere, as well as many of the locations used in fillers that do not exist in the games. At the end of the day, it's still filler regardless. I really don't get it.
No one saw the original script of One Piece except for the writer himself.
Actually, the editors do. But that's beside the point. All one simply needs to do is to take a *look* at One Piece and realize that more action and exploration of the world/characters happens in its fillers than any of the fillers in PM. Even if one's personal taste says "I don't like One Piece", one can at least tell that Toei tries.

And most of the fillers are just the anime. The manga, which lacks these fillers, has to constantly remain engaging to readers of Weekly Shounen Jump, with gender and age demographics being taken into consideration, and retain consistent popularity in sales or risk being dropped from the lineup by Shueisha. Oda, one man with some assistants, has to keep up with this and not get burnt out. Pocket Monsters doesn't have these same limitations. It's a show that basically started out as an adaptation of a popular video game with a set episode count, then popularity sky-rocketed... then milked... then became an investment to advertise the merchandise and video games. Whereas long-running shounen anime have fillers to keep them from catching up to the source material, Pocket Monsters is not trying to pad itself up from anything other than the next generation. It has nothing to deviate from because it's already a deviation. So any filler in Pocket Monsters functions pretty much the same way, regardless if the setting is an illusion of being in a "main" region" or in friggin' Kansas.

What a reboot needs to be is not Fillers: The Anime. Yes, it'll still suck if the writing style, for some reason, remained the same. But again, 1) I'm arguing that the writers would be in the mindset of improving the series if they had a reboot in mind to begin with and 2) a story with a beginning and end is better than a story that is put on an indefinite standstill in progression with no intention to end, "in my opinion". Sitcoms, slice-of-life, and comedies notwithstanding.

Its all just my speculation that you can simple ignore but then the story might have been about beating all the 7 seas and the story finishes. All other arcs are nothing more than fillers. You can blame Pokemon for making filler arcs obvious though.
Pocket Monsters don't even *have* filler arcs (filler "goals" that don't exist in the games, maybe, but never any real filler arcs), it has formulaic filler episodes. The difference between them is that the former is intended to be spread out, engage the viewer by providing a side story that's a lot more lasting than a one-shot episode, and keeps the viewers guessing what will happen after the cliffhangers. An acceptable filler arc in Pocket Monsters would be, say, instead of reintroducing Satoshi's Lizardon and then not using him to any significant degree (like at the tail-end of Best Wishes Season 2), they instead tell a nicely-written and cinematic tale that takes up a few episodes, reintroducing Satoshi's Lizardon fighting a legendary in a cool battle? Like, uh, the third movie, except within the TV show instead of a side-story movie. And it didn't have to be filler. In terms of Pocket Monsters, fans seem to consider episodes where characters simply catch a Pokemon "non-filler" even if it otherwise resembles every other filler in structure... because it's essentially an original anime using the video games as a base concept rather than something to really follow. "Fillers" in Pocket Monsters don't have to be fillers. But why do important plot developments in increments, in what could have been mundane filler episodes without them, when they could be introduced in more extravagant ways in a larger-focused plot arc? My example could work if they reintroduce Mii Snowdon as an important character later on (she's related to Satoshi's hometown background anyway).

But I've digressed a bit. Using your logic here:
Its all just my speculation that you can simple ignore but then the story might have been about beating all the 7 seas and the story finishes. All other arcs are nothing more than fillers.

All a story needs is a just a beginning and just an end, and everything that happens in-between is filler. Huh. As long as some sort of development happens that affects the rest of the narrative to some degree, it's not filler. All it needs to do is take the effort not to be bland.

Right... Get him here. Give evidences thought... not just ranting at me.
Implying that I didn't already give evidence, and cited what is universally accepted as crucial to good writing, and you didn't just ignore them or misinterpreted almost everything I tried to present.
 
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(BTW, "K" is not a rating that I know of. If we're going by ESRB video game ratings [if the "T" is any indication], the Pocket Monsters anime would be an E or E10+. Earlier content not included. Japanese film ratings would consider the Pocket Monsters anime a G, PG-12 at the most (which, in fact, is the case with some of the feature films). Adding unnecessary content for the sake of being "graphic" [which all ratings basically amount to - sexual content, inappropriate language, and graphic violence] does not mean that the quality is made better. Ratings are different from demographics. Something could be clean and viewable for younger audiences, but are intended to appeal to an older group]. The level of graphic content does not directly go side-by-side with "maturity", etc.)
I thought i said that I rated them in my own rating, I don't need a guide in my brain, thanks for helping though.

>"I never said they have fillers"
>then says they have fillers
And if you watch the other series you mentioned carefully, they do have modified version of fillers in the same formula. Just they did it well that no one feels it.
I am implying that you misunderstood my post on that, I am saying that they have not just fillers, but repeating SIMILAR fillers.

All a story needs is a just a beginning and just an end, and everything that happens in-between is filler. Huh. As long as some sort of development happens that affects the rest of the narrative to some degree, it's not filler. All it needs to do is take the effort not to be bland.
By your logic, a lot of the current anime aren't fillers because they affect Ash one another way, even if it is miniscule (like the Elite 4 meeting of Ash in DP, everyone says its a filler, but Ash did learn to avoid dig from Bertha and to follow the Pokemons tempo from Lucian). And fillers just have to be not bland? So all in a sudden you can take bunches of fillers as long as they are not bland?

Implying that I didn't already give evidence, and cited what is universally accepted as crucial to good writing, and you didn't just ignore them or misinterpreted almost everything I tried to present.
First, you cited your opinion, which is not mine, nor the universe's. 'Universally' is too much for a single being to say (look at the poll, its a 3 to 2 stand out, in fact nearly 1 to 1). And all the so called evidence are nothing more than your look at the larger picture of the anime, not everyone's. People loving a series tends to look at the bigger picture rather than individual episodes, where individual episodes can be uncreative and bland. I don't do misinterpret, I do debate.

But again, 1) I'm arguing that the writers would be in the mindset of improving the series if they had a reboot in mind to begin with
That's a lot of assumptions. If a revamp ever happens, I would be praying that this assumption is correct, or else the Anime will be the worst. And by worst I mean it, worse than anything possible, worse than stuck eternally with an Ash that is written to be an idiot (which he is far away from being one).

2) a story with a beginning and end is better than a story that is put on an indefinite standstill in progression with no intention to end, "in my opinion". Sitcoms, slice-of-life, and comedies notwithstanding.
This one I agree, a story without ending sucks like hell. There are a lot of stories that the stopped that make me sad. But again its another assumption that GF has no intention ending the Anime forever. Though everyone (including me) thinks that way.
 
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I thought i said that I rated them in my own rating, I don't need a guide in my brain, thanks for helping though.
Well, see, I don't care if those ratings came straight from your head or straight from the garbage, because either way: Those ratings are *wrong*. Plenty of those series have installments that aren't "for older audiences", and are still good. Either that, or they're campy. If you tell me you'd rate Kamen Rider Den-O or Fourze, or Digimon Xros Wars as "mature" teen shows, I'd puke. Just getting that out there. The fact that you'd even suggest that means you haven't watched any of those series firsthand and just pulled that reasoning out of thin air.

I am implying that you misunderstood my post on that, I am saying that they have not just fillers, but repeating SIMILAR fillers.
Even then, you gave me no example of such a formula being followed. What, "things happen, with the protagonist and an antagonist?" That's what a narrative is.

And my original reply was already addressing the original meaning of your post, until your subsequent reply confused me horribly. There's no "filler formula" because the anime series Crystal listed generally don't have the time to do many filler episodes enough to replicate a previous episode. And even in the case of adaptations like Shakugan no Shana or One Piece, the filler material doesn't follow a predictable formula for large amounts of episodes. It's simply a storyline not present in the source material. Plus, rarely does it ever comprise a whole chunk of an entire show. That isn't to say that some shows don't have boring and formulaic filler, or are just formulaic in general. But 1) we're not saying that's a good thing to begin with and 2) formulaic shows are usually slice-of-life comedies and the like, which works for them. Pocket Monsters isn't a slice-of-life in the realm of Doraemon or Crayon Shin-chan. Or K-ON!. It's an action-adventure anime with many flaws, and uses a formula in a consecutive manner that doesn't work with the nature and enormous length of the series.

By your logic, a lot of the current anime aren't fillers because they affect Ash one another way, even if it is miniscule (like the Elite 4 meeting of Ash in DP, everyone says its a filler, but Ash did learn to avoid dig from Bertha and to follow the Pokemons tempo from Lucian).
Way to totally misinterpret what I said. It never affects the entire series in the long run. Fillers are often treated like they never existed in Pocket Monsters. The episodes you mentioned contain characters from the source material, so obviously they're going to try and make them feel significant (there are exceptions like that one episode where Daigo appears, but they treat him as an unimportant CotD for god knows why). But a run-of-the-mill filler more than often develops the one-shot anime-original characters more than the protagonists in this anime series. If there's any lesson learned by the end of the episode, chances are they'll learn that same lesson again. Especially our perpetual protagonist Satoshi.

And fillers just have to be not bland? So all in a sudden you can take bunches of fillers as long as they are not bland?
Sure? If an episode is a good episode, then it's a good episode. There is such thing as a good filler. The original Fullmetal Alchemist and the Samurai Champloo anime can attest to that. I also loved the fillers in Kanto, especially since the pacing of that era didn't make everything seem like the series was being carried by fillers. And I can name filler episodes from that era that didn't follow the same trite format and were entertainingly full of life overall (could be attributed to the series still being fresh compared to nowadays and had Shudo as the series composer). EP020 (The Ghost Pokemon and the Summer Festival) is a good example of a Pocket Monsters filler I liked.

Not to mention, as I said, the nature of "fillers" in the Pocket Monsters anime is strange. It's not like it has a solid source material to follow (like a manga, novel, a story-driven JRPG, etc.), so there's really no reason for the "fillers" to be "fillers." Aside from Gym Battles and the like, the anime is mostly original content. So why not take the effort do more with the episode count? There is plenty of material from the games, such as the plot of the villainous teams that could be expanded and improved upon in the anime. Instead of devoting a massive amount of episodes for one-shot characters and anime-original settings, why not use that time to expand on characters that are already in the games? Give a Gym Leader a plot arc or something, like Natsume from the original anime. They could even do more anime-original villains like Pokemon Hunter J that could make good potential for a plot arc, removing the use of typical filler episodes. Occasional filler isn't bad. A filler plot arc isn't necessarily bad either. But the anime doesn't really do any of this. Instead, it fed us large doses of consecutive retreaded fillers for 17 years. An ideal reboot would take this into consideration and cut back on "fillers" and focus more on making the anime a better action show, with a better story that sort of "flows" from episode-to-episode. It could certainly take an example from the Pocket Monsters Special manga of actually trying. That series isn't perfect, but I commend it for trying, and nowadays I enjoy it much more than the anime.

As much as I liked the Orange Islands saga of the anime, the plot for the second movie could have totally been transposed with a lot of the filler within that portion of the anime. Same with the rest of the movies, really. Also, Lucario movie > any Battle Frontier filler episodes taking place in Fake Kanto, especially that one with the giant Caterpie. Ew.

Point of the matter is, the anime's approach on "fillers" is wrong. "CotD Problem of the Day" fillers work as "breather episodes" after an exciting batch of episodes. Not as a giant pile of flab you have to get through to get to the true meat of the show, which of course is fairly disappointing. The main protagonist losing the "final" battles aren't very satisfying rewards for getting through all of that.

First, you cited your opinion, which is not mine, nor the universe's. 'Universally' is too much for a single being to say (look at the poll, its a 3 to 2 stand out). And all the so called evidence are nothing more than your look at the larger picture of the anime, not everyone's. People loving a series tends to look at the bigger picture rather than individual episodes, where individual episodes can be uncreative and bland. I don't do misinterpret, I do debate.
Um, what I mentioned was the universally-accepted ingredients on how to properly structure a story that all professional writers learn in colleges and universities. It's not an "opinion". Heck, anybody that goes to school is taught at least the basics in what makes a story. A well-structured story always needs: a beginning, middle, and an end. Everything in the middle is used to develop your characters, set up a rising action, the conflict, and then the falling action in which finally you start arriving at the conclusion. Nowhere will a professional writer or academic scholar ever tell you, "set up your characters, then develop them.... then develop them even more, keep changing them constantly until they reach their threshold, it's okay because you can just reset them. NEVER REACH A CONCLUSION."

And I am looking at the bigger picture. If I just looked at individual episodes and bits from the anime series, I could say "well... I enjoyed the earlier episodes and some of the later ones, the Mewtwo saga was pretty good, so was the third movie, and I loved that episode about the St. Anne's shipwreck... THE WHOLE ANIME IS SO GOOOD!". But no. I'm looking at the entire series overall. All 700+ episodes+the movies. The anime as a whole. And from my perspective, it's an anime franchise that's pretty bland and is beating a dead horse. And I'm suggesting ways on making a revamp better than what we have. Especially compared to other adaptations of Pocket Monsters and other series. Hallelujah.

That's a lot of assumptions. If a revamp ever happens, I would be praying that this assumption is correct, or else the Anime will be the worst.
I mean, it seems like a fairer assumption than assuming that they'd take the time to "improve" the series as it is now while overlooking the biggest pitfall they'd ever have in terms of "good writing": keeping the same main character for the rest of eternity. Honestly, if they were really serious about improving the anime - which is the hypothetical desire we all have - they'd revamp the series by either ending Satoshi's story and passing the torch onto a new main character, or the less-likely option, remake the anime; restoring a lot of Satoshi's honor as a protagonist, and end his story earlier, re-doing everything else (the fact that they're keen on advertising the current games makes this scenario the least likely). And even then, anything is better than their current routine and turning a protagonist I once liked into a joke. At least that's what I think.

This one I agree, a story without ending sucks like hell. There are a lot of stories that the stopped that make me sad. But again its another assumption that GF has no intention ending the Anime forever. Though everyone (including me) thinks that way.
Game Freak as a whole has nothing to do with the anime besides developing the games that they are based on. And as long as the games continue on, the anime will too, which is definitely a long time. That's why people are in favor of switching protagonists. Because 1) you get a story that ends and 2) at the same time, you're able to continue the anime continuity. As I said in the other thread linked in the OP, just because a character passes the torch onto a new one, that doesn't mean they'll never appear again.

Now my other question: If these OVA/TV Specials are to be extended to something like a 12/24/52 episodes full-length standard anime, are you going to watch it?
Yes, I would. With the Legend of Thunder special, I always thought it would be neat if it alternatively took place three years into the future (as opposed to the present), with Satoshi winning the Jouto League instead. I wouldn't mind one series adapting the Ruby and Sapphire games starring Yuuki, and an OVA series released alongside that television series following the story of Kenta in Jouto. Ideally, the OVA would all culminate in Kenta confronting Satoshi, the legendary first protagonist, who has now become one of the best trainers in the world. That or he becomes a mentor character within the plot. Too bad that didn't happen.
 
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Well, see, I don't care if those ratings came straight from your head or straight from the garbage, because either way: Those ratings are *wrong*. Plenty of those series have installments that aren't "for older audiences", and are still good. Either that, or they're campy. If you tell me you'd rate Kamen Rider Den-O or Fourze, or Digimon Xros Wars as "mature" teen shows, I'd puke. Just getting that out there. The fact that you'd even suggest that means you haven't watched any of those series firsthand and just pulled that reasoning out of thin air.
Wait... I never remember having a thought in my own brain needs anyone's approval, you can't change my opinion, in fact don't even bother to.

And I do rate them more 'mature', and as long as I agree with it, its my own business.

Even then, you gave me no example of such a formula being followed. What, "things happen, with the protagonist and an antagonist?" That's what a narrative is.
I got school and this is a quick reply, I would be back and I will list all the similar fillers I can find in the anime you and Crystal listed. Just don't give me the argument of they have different outcome or different character decided to help the CotD (or maybe not CotD) , Its weak.

But a run-of-the-mill filler more than often develops the one-shot anime-original characters more than the protagonists in this anime series. If there's any lesson learned by the end of the episode, chances are they'll learn that same lesson again. Especially our perpetual protagonist Satoshi.
Yeah, that just made me wonder why schools existed, they always teach the same lesson over and over again.....

If you argue and say that the school step up the lesson every year, the same thing can apply to the filler of Pokemon too.

If you don't feel it, Its once again your personal opinion.

Um, what I mentioned was the universally-accepted ingredients on how to properly structure a story that all professional writers learn in colleges and universities. It's not an "opinion". Heck, anybody that goes to school is taught at least the basics in what makes a story.
Thanks for telling me why all the manga's these days are so damn unoriginal.... too similar to each other because they all follow the 'universally' accept formula?

A well-structured story always needs: a beginning, middle, and an end. Everything in the middle is used to develop your characters, set up a rising action, the conflict, and then the falling action in which finally you start arriving at the conclusion. Nowhere will a professional writer or academic scholar ever tell you, "set up your characters, then develop them.... then develop them even more, keep changing them constantly until they reach their threshold, it's okay because you can just reset them. NEVER REACH A CONCLUSION."
This part is totally separated form the previous sentence, you weren't arguing 'Completion' with 'Universally accepted' together in the last post. You were trying to mix up different points while I noticed. This simple skill is crucial in debates.

And I already agreed in the last post that I agree a story without ending sucks.
 
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Wait... I never remember having a thought in my own brain needs anyone's approval, you can't change my opinion, in fact don't even bother to.

And I do rate them more 'mature', and as long as I agree with it, its my own business.
Kamen Rider Den-O sure is the most mature superhero series out there

[VIDEO="youtube;fpkfbt0ujD0"]LOL MATURE[/VIDEO]

How on Earth is this for little Japanese 5-year olds

I got school and this is a quick reply, I would be back and I will list all the similar fillers I can find in the anime you and Crystal listed. Just don't give me the argument of they have different outcome or different character decided to help the CotD (or maybe not CotD) , Its weak.
I'm predicting that you're going to find one episode from one very long series where a character helps someone and then claim that they do this multiple times and then ignore all of the other examples. And then hilariously think you're right.

Please tear apart Neon Genesis Evangelion, I dare you (you're gonna choose that one, right, right? Pleeeeease? )=).

Yeah, that just made me wonder why schools existed, they always teach the same lesson over and over again.....

If you argue and say that the school step up the lesson every year, the same thing can apply to the filler of Pokemon too.

If you don't feel it, Its once again your personal opinion.

Bro, you seem a little too bitter about school. If it makes you feel better, there's a version for people just starting.

Thanks for telling me why all the manga's these days are so damn unoriginal.... too similar to each other because they all follow the 'universally' accept formula?
>beginning, middle, and end
>unoriginal
>too similar
>still greentexting outside of 4chan

Oh god we have some avant garde here. Get out your fedoras, kids.

This part is totally separated form the previous sentence, you weren't arguing 'Completion' with 'Universally accepted' together in the last post. You were trying to mix up different points while I noticed. This simple skill is crucial in debates.
At this point, I don't know if hipster or troll.

And yeah, I probably lack proper debating skills because I can't piece together what you're trying to say here. Sorry, my English is bad.

And I already agreed in the last post that I agree a story without ending sucks.
Didn't you just say that endings are too mainstream for you? What a universally trite format! Those colleges don't know what they're talking about. We're in total agreement.

I apologize to them forum leaders in advance if this was "too rude", but seriously

In a nutshell said:
"you should present your facts"

*I present facts*

"well, fuck your facts, it's my opinion"

*says one thing*

*says the complete opposite later, for the sake of disagreeing*

*and then accuses me of backpedaling (?) when I've been calmly/consistently expressing my arguments and constructive criticisms up until now, most of which he ignored*
I honestly don't think this is real anymore. If it is, then welp, not going to continue anymore anyway

I'll be taking my leave then.
 
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